[Dr K]

Originally Posted by Potomac-Greg

That's why some SCCA regions created SSM -- to try to get back to what SM used to be.

Maybe they need to institute a $30-40,000 "claiming" rule. Any SM can be bought and must be sold for $30,000 after the race. No doubt, there will be a LOT of discussion over the winter.

As Greg knows but some of you may not, SSM ("Showroom" Spec Miata) is not a national class in SCCA. Different regions have different rules, and when I last checked about a year ago, the National Capital region was alone in their very strict rules of a sealed engine (97 HP!!) and spec suspension with no options. The other regions are all envious of the 40-car-in-class races in this region, but none of them have yet followed suit with the strict rules. It's still more flexible than the true SCCA spec cars (e.g. SRF) where the entire car is SPEC, but it's close and it's less expensive. And therefore, it's very popular.

I'm looking forward to trying a race next season--I would have raced the weekend before this past except for the religious holiday. The races apparently have less contact than SM, but considerably more than PCA. We'll see how tolerable that is after "gentleman racing" with our club. The cars sure are a blast to drive, and stick like rubber cement! But they make a 944 look fast on the straights...

I like the idea of the "claiming race" or "engine claiming race" in SM, or they could go back to their roots and seal the engines (perhaps at a more reasonable HP than 97). Sure, there's a cost to getting a dyno, but it would be a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER than the arms race that is currently occurring in SM, and the huge fields in SSM attest to that.

Peter

[flaggerjohn]

I can remember working the 1993 Runoff's at Road Atlanta. If my memory is correct, I believe SCCA had to go down into the 20's in placement to find a legal Showroom Stock GT car. It was a huge black eye to the club.

[Trak Ratt]

Originally Posted by flaggerjohn

I can remember working the 1993 Runoff's at Road Atlanta. If my memory is correct, I believe SCCA had to go down into the 20's in placement to find a legal Showroom Stock GT car. It was a huge black eye to the club.

Me 2, but rules is rules! Getting disqualified for something stupid is prolly worst than running out of gas When I was doing Porsche CR tech the little things seemed to get in the way all the time.

[Potomac-Greg]

Originally Posted by Vicegrip

If you read up on what happened and the rule in question it seems more a BS inforcement of a poorly written rule. Some of the cars torn down and DQed the only thing found was this one thing that is a side effect of some legal machining and within the depth and diameter confines of another part of the same rule.

Would suck to work your way through a year and get DQed on something that all the builders are doing and openly as it was no considered a cheat.

I saw a public apology by one builder (Jim Drago) where he eloquently states that his drivers asked for the strongest engines within the rules, and the rule in question was not very clear. He took full responsibility. So I withdraw my implication that the drivers were "cheating" (the drivers basically just bought the engine and the engine builders were just toeing a fuzzy line) but I double down on my view that a class with this kind of spend, and the potential for mass DQs needs to be revamped (or avoided).

[ruffyz]

Maybe this was already said in the thread, but don't some racing series make you buy a sealed engine, suspensions, etc from a known source? Spec Ford comes to mind. This seems like the best way to keep cost and variation of cars in control.

Honestly, 20k - 30k on a Miata seems off the wall to me. Shit, what is the point? You could be racing a Porsche with that kind of money. Though if you *really* want to race sub 100 HP cars I know a racing series or two that will cost you only $500

[HoodPin]

FWIW, Mazda has a multi-tier racing program, culminating in Pro rides via StarMazda, USF2000, Indy Lights, and connections to Indy Car.

http://www.starmazda.com/about/series

The lower ranks of SpecMiata & MX5 Cup are used by Mazda for recruiting. So some folks go all out in the hopes of earning a ride/sponsorship.

But I agree, the rules appear to be in need of some re-assessment. It doesn't make sense to have such variability in a "spec" series. I heard from a friend of mine that did SM briefly, that Mazda (MazdaSpeed?) would sell racers a "stock" motor for around $2,500. For "serious" interests there were "pro" motors out there for around $7,000. And IIRC, they were supposed to be "sealed" motors. The idea that premier engines are now going for 4X that much is insane. Recalls for me the days of SCCA Showroom Stock, where dealerships were building "ringer" engines by scouring the parts bins (literally thousands of parts...) for weight-matching engine parts (cranks, connecting rods, pistons, etc) to build a "blue print" motor withough doing any machining. Not possible for the backyard entrant.

Kudos to Jim Drago for taking responsibility. But this also illustrates how rules are important, and people should stop bellyaching when rules get to be too lengthy. Vagaries will always be exploited; sometimes it helps the sport, but not always.

[N Fotouhi]

Originally Posted by ruffyz

Honestly, 20k - 30k on a Miata seems off the wall to me. Shit, what is the point? You could be racing a Porsche with that kind of money. Though if you *really* want to race sub 100 HP cars I know a racing series or two that will cost you only $500

This made me laugh. $20-30K is average annual budget for racing a Porsche. unless you are Dr. K

Lemons is not racing.

[Vicegrip]

Originally Posted by HoodPin

FWIW, Mazda has a multi-tier racing program, culminating in Pro rides via StarMazda, USF2000, Indy Lights, and connections to Indy Car.

Originally Posted by HoodPin

http://www.starmazda.com/about/series



The lower ranks of SpecMiata & MX5 Cup are used by Mazda for recruiting. So some folks go all out in the hopes of earning a ride/sponsorship.



But I agree, the rules appear to be in need of some re-assessment. It doesn't make sense to have such variability in a "spec" series. I heard from a friend of mine that did SM briefly, that Mazda (MazdaSpeed?) would sell racers a "stock" motor for around $2,500. For "serious" interests there were "pro" motors out there for around $7,000. And IIRC, they were supposed to be "sealed" motors. The idea that premier engines are now going for 4X that much is insane. Recalls for me the days of SCCA Showroom Stock, where dealerships were building "ringer" engines by scouring the parts bins (literally thousands of parts...) for weight-matching engine parts (cranks, connecting rods, pistons, etc) to build a "blue print" motor withough doing any machining. Not possible for the backyard entrant.



Kudos to Jim Drago for taking responsibility. But this also illustrates how rules are important, and people should stop bellyaching when rules get to be too lengthy. Vagaries will always be exploited; sometimes it helps the sport, but not always.

.....and so starts the slippery slope.



Using the rule in this example. It seems it was set up so a rebuilder could compensate for a poor head casting by letting them adjust the valve bore hole slightly. This negates the Plantagenet power player parts picker people prevailing over plain po-folks by letting a rebuilder to work the head into a fully good stock as intended rather than as made condition. The dia and depth of the plunge cut had maximums and also noted that there can be no marks made by hand or machine outside of the dia and depth range. Another part of the rule noted no other machining other than the plunge cut. This simple standard function is where it seems the builders got in trouble. They were dressing the end of the cut to remove swarf but well inside of the depth and dia portion of the rule. They were not making machine or hand dress marks outside to the allowed zone.

Another part of the rule noted no cutting on the inside of the curve. This runs 100% counter to the other part of the rule that permits the cutting at all.



Looks like Good intentions, poor execution.

[good hands]

One of the things I like about running against 996's and 997's as well as Caymans for that matter is that it was more cost effective to buy factory crate motors than have them rebuilt. Much less chance that someone is inside the engine cheating. Those days are fading fast though as Porsche Motors have skyrocketed in price ( they were 10k at one point) and they aren't even making some models any more.

[Dr K]

Originally Posted by N Fotouhi

This made me laugh. $20-30K is average annual budget for racing a Porsche. unless you are Dr. K

FUN!!

At least I've been out there racing the past few years (well, this year not so much...but holding with the "cheap" reputation, I did run Watkins Glen on RA-1s and finished mid-pack! I think my annual budget the other years was in the quoted range above).