Extended passing, mainly black group drivers

[Der ABT]

Well since we have an event coming up soon, i thought i would post this vid and leave it up for discussion.
THIS IS NOT MEANT TO CALL ANYONE OUT OR SINGLE OUT ANY DRIVER.

This video is full of how it should not work in my opinion, Open passing is meant to help everyone have a better run. Passing in corners/straights/anywhere a faster car has caught up to a slower car........
there are several issues i could point out seen in this video but ill leave that out as not to anger anyone
really i just hope people see this the way i do and start working on corner passing.
the last little bit of the video shows how a pass in the middle of turn 3 can see both cars loosing very little speed/time. also turn 9 and 6.

Im not saying im perfect, and maybe im just more comfortable then some and passing on any point in the track but I am hoping this can be used to improve things in black.

This is a couple red drivers divebombing black to see how passing goes, as you can tell there is more passing in straights, It was said in the instructor meetin in the morning where if your not getting a passing signal and there is another car behind try letting them in front to show a now set of headlights to the car not giving the signal.

again not trying to start anything but i think it needs to be shown.

without further digging a hole for myself, if i offend someone please its not meant personally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCV_m2rScV4&hd=1

[VaSteve]

without further digging a hole for myself, if i offend someone please its not meant personally.

lol...
http://www.labsafety.com/images/xl/Fire-Fighting-Shovel-LSS-_i_bmw170620.jpg


http://www.komatsuamerica.com/images/products/pc3000-6shovel.jpg

[Chopper Dropper]

Thanks for posting that Evan, you have not dug a hole for yourself. I am allowed to offend freely and will at a suitable moment!!
Dirk

[BlackTalon]

1. The main 'conductors' are not Dorkis. And they will be in Black forever and ever. Just try getting by them in a full-weight '87 Targa :(

2. That Cayman smoked your ass! :lol:

[FTS]

I think that if we cannot criticize ourselves and cordially one another, how would we know what we are doing is right or wrong. I always hope that everyone else is open to such criticism as I am, but I know it is not always the case. I do sincerely hope that if I am doing anything wrong, not so inline with the etiquette, or can do something better at least the dorkis will come an warn me without fearing to offend me, before Dirk comes to talk to me ;)

Btw, Mike Levitas was driving the Cayman testing the suspension for Brian.

[Alan Herod]

Thank you for posting the video. Bob and I were not actually out trying to harass black, we had been out with students in White and went out together in Black. Afterward we discussed the passing jam issues. It seems the Boxster and the 911 spent several sessions together. After that it became a topic for further study. Rick in the Focus was really good with the passing signals!!

I hope it is not as hot in August, oil temps prevented a full session.

[Dr K]

Evan,
I found the two most typical "conductors" in black both let me by when they didn't recognize my new car :D Perhaps you should repaint your car (or get a new one), or at the very least, put on a dark gray carbon fiber hood--with your yellow fenders, many not looking closely will give you a quick point-by!

Peter

[BlackTalon]

Evan,
I found the two most typical "conductors" in black both let me by when they didn't recognize my new car :D Perhaps you should repaint your car (or get a new one), or at the very least, put on a dark gray carbon fiber hood--with your yellow fenders, many not looking closely will give you a quick point-by!

PeterThe two cars in question are serial offenders. They are content letting slow cars/ drovers (like me) stay behind them for multiple laps. When a point-by is finally given, they generally drag race to the next corner. I received a point-by out of T10 last DE (after trailing behind for 3 laps, including being up their tail pipes in all the braking zones and turns), and only completed the pass at the apex of T1. So no other cars were able to get by on the main straight, when there was a train.

[Potomac-Greg]

Picking up on one of your sub-points, I suppose that there might be a benefit to encouraging those stuck behind the locomotive to swap positions so that the conductor can "see new headlights" but that's mostly a gift to the cars further back. I've done this and all it buys me is a longer ride on the train. In a momentum car, you only get so many opportunities to get by, and it often cannot executed quickly. Swapping from second to third (or fourth) on the choo choo could buy me another lap behind the conductor! Worse yet, it means you have to back off the bumper of the guy holding everyone up, sometimes moving 2-3 spots back 'cause everyone assumes YOU are the reason for the clog!

The problem and the solution lies with the conductor.

PS: I've run NASA HPDE 3 with open-pass-with-point and it's great for keeping a wide range of cars moving around a track IF people use it. But it's always optional, never mandatory.

[whitecar]

"and I was there"... That is, I was out in the session of Evan's tape and seems that there was some really mentionable items. Thanks Evan for posting it.

Really,this is not meant to be a rag session, but the point that is trying to be made is......

There is apparently (and demonstrably) some data that is showing a real situation that the Black group is... NOT having as much fun as the Red group with exended passing.
Please let me know if you have different information or data... Well.. I reviewed Evans tape closely... did I say closely..I was in view for most of the session..(Yes, it did take me the whole damn sessoin to get away from him...nice smooth drive Evan.) and there are some really good things going on there as well as some "opportunities for improvement" going on as visible from the session.

I was going to note the actual times and actions with a play by play commentary, and actually wrote them down, but then, figured.. who the hell cares about "what Bob thinks"..
Point is, that a little cooperation cost little in time for either the passing car, or the car being passed. Evan gives me a pass after 6, and just moves 6' or so to the left, I was tight on the inside and out of his way very quickly. Later in the tape, Evan lets the white Cayman by in 3, and does not really miss a beat. Passing in corners really can work. May not always be the fastest, but it can be the fun way to go.

In general, normal passing zone form was good... lots of quick passing signals approaching straights etc... all 944's seemed to be totally on board at approach to straights and normal passing zones... (remember, turns are now passing zones..)

There is not ever a requirement to "give" or "take" a pass!
And, if you wave it off.... wave it off for 5 seconds... so the upfront driver can proceed with confidence that you are not going to take the pass ..now..


So.. might see more of this type of video when available, but it only will help if I can track down a similar session in RED where it seems to work better.

I am really not trying to call out the black group, but I personally know many of you and just how capable you are. Just want to improve the "flow" of the sessions. That's the major difference between Black and Red. There are cars in red that are slower than black, but there is also a flow to a RED session that is pretty much hard to imagine until you experience it. Any Black Drivers that have not gone for a RECENT ride in RED with a fellow driver/instructor, should do so IMMEDIATELY... Not saying Red is better, just that they take more advantage of the "extended passsing" and the "know thy neighbor" policies....It really is fun and I think it is worth the chase.

Please understand that I and Dirk truely do respect the quality of the Black group drivers, we only want to make the sessions as fun and safe as possible.

Remember, all instructors can ride with other instructors... and that is the key to the whole thing... the BS goes away, talking smooth and fast is one thing, going for a ride and showing smooth and fast is another... Sorry non instructors cannot ride with other black/red drivers due to insurance...... "Policies".

Remember, we really want this to be "fun, fast, and safe".

And... more useless words from Bob... This is the best "hobby" there is... (and if you do a cost comparison.. we come up cheap when compared to boating...!

Disclaimer:
Please disregard any above information that does not pertain to you either due to :
driving status, car cost, car speed, car capabilites, driver capabilities, general life superiorities, size of pretty much anything, respect, cost of car, sound of car, color of car... etc....

Can't wait for more fun at Pfest......weather prediction...high about 82, no rain, a little breeze....(I'm lying again...) see everyone soooon.




Bob m

[Vicegrip]

Simple basic. If someone is behind you for more than a few turns give him a pass and just enough lift to get him by.

Advanced. Do the above but in corners.

Optional. Get your pass before you let the guy that came up behind you pass and get between you and "I think I can, I think I can" if you pull out from behind before getting a point the guy might muff the timing looking for you while you are in his blind spot. 1/2 a car in ether mirror. Look to make eye contact in mirrors if posable.

This is not something that is new, confined to Potomac, confined to the Black group or ever going to change in great measure on its own.

I was in Black for many years and watched it transform from the present Red like group to one that has many cars and a much wider range of skills and heads up levels than in the earlier years.

A move to Black or Red should be provisional. You get an X just like in CR. A real one or just on paper. Be Thomas the Train engine and you get to take one step back after getting reported by enough non X holders. Non X holders have a duty to note poor passing methods on the upper run groups.

It is not hard to see trains from pit out or the grandstands. Park a guy with a radio i the grandstands and have him call some numbers to be black flagged. I have been in plenty of trains in the 912. Far more in the later years when the Black numbers swelled. This started well before the present group running DE was in charge.

[Fairfax 944]

Thanks for posting the video of about 8 laps of my car (the silver 944 turbo).

Bob was behind me for most of the session, but since I was being held up by the cars in front of me I didn't throw Bob a pass. (Note to self: learn which cars the chief-instructors drive and let those guys by whenever they are behind, regardless of the traffic in front). Once traffic was open, I did throw the pass to Bob probably one corner to late, sorry.

But for those laps that I was held up in traffic, and didn't know how fast or slow the cars were behind me, was I wrong not throwing a pass to the guy behind me? I don't think so, because I didn't know if the person behind me was faster or slower as the pace was quite slow.

Enjoy Porschefest. I'm sitting this one out; the heat was a little too much for me in July.

[good hands]

Also please be aware that if there is a car behind you with a really cool paint job and has like really cool permanent numbers and racing stripes on it... it's probably a race car driver and not just a DE driver. We are faster and superior drivers than average DE guys so please be courteous. We are fast. Early signals are appreciated....

[MLIN]

Jim brought up a very good point. Just because you are in a train stuck behind a slower car doesn't mean you cannot give a point-by to someone faster (that is if you recognize the car) behind you. This will help the flow once the conductor of the train finally realizes and points everyone by.

Bob, you need to put some more decals on your car. ;)

[Trak Ratt]

Also please be aware that if there is a car behind you with a really cool paint job and has like really cool permanent numbers and racing stripes on it... it's probably a race car driver and not just a DE driver. We are faster and superior drivers than average DE guys so please be courteous. We are fast. Early signals are appreciated....
:roll: Pleeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....................

[Vicegrip]

Jim brought up a very good point. Just because you are in a train stuck behind a slower car doesn't mean you cannot give a point-by to someone faster (that is if you recognize the car) behind you. This will help the flow once the conductor of the train finally realizes and points everyone by.

Bob, you need to put some more decals on your car. ;)I agree with that in part. On one hand why should you keep getting bumped further back from getting a hard earned pass from the slug than the guy that is behind you primarily because you got held up by the missing mirror slug? Perhaps it should read "well faster than you" I have seen were letting others pass has only reinforced the poor thinking on the part of the front man and made the lines longer for it. The in part part. If you are a train of 2 or 3 cars that are of a similar speed overall and a rocket appears behind you give a pass. No sense in spreading the misery around. OTOH not doing so sure will make for more "conversations" at pit out and that might get sideline based enforcement up a notch.




Trains have and will be a persistent issue as they form out of human nature. The only way to combat them is vigilance in training, more use of mirrors, less use of ego, better observation from the sidelines and.

As to extended passing. IIRC it has always been taught as optional to give passes in corners. Some might not always be comfortable taking or giving a pass to an unknown car/driver and or in some corners. I know, I know, You will loose the DE and a also your shot at the contingency tires by waving off a mid corner pass now and then. Not giving a pass in a corner to an unknown car is no excuse at all not to give one at the next straight.



All in all trains are less an issue with Potomac than some other groups I have been slumming with.

I like the tarted up fancy boy cars with all the funny numbers and letters on em'. The colors make purdty lines and swirls when you go by them.

[Ryan]

So.. might see more of this type of video when available, but it only will help if I can track down a similar session in RED where it seems to work better.


Bob- Here's a section of video showing some good cooperation in Red. Shows sharing a turn in T10, T1 (not me but 2 other cars) T3, then T4.

Untitled on Vimeo

[MLIN]

In Evan's vid, the problem is beyond extended passing. The first couple of cars at the front didn't have the awareness to notice (or chose to ignore) a long train building behind them for multiple corners and straights.

[FTS]

Ryan, is the video actually there?

[FTS]

A move to Black or Red should be provisional. You get an X just like in CR. A real one or just on paper. Be Thomas the Train engine and you get to take one step back after getting reported by enough non X holders. Non X holders have a duty to note poor passing methods on the upper run groups.

I really like this idea actually.

[Jazzbass]

But for those laps that I was held up in traffic, and didn't know how fast or slow the cars were behind me, was I wrong not throwing a pass to the guy behind me? I don't think so, because I didn't know if the person behind me was faster or slower as the pace was quite slow.

Hmmm... good question. Like Kurt, I think the answer is "It depends". From what I've seen, often times the conductor won't give a pass to the #2 guy because they are similar in lap times - say #1 does 1:29s and #2 does 1:28s. #2 is faster, clearly, but not a LOT faster. So you get situations where #1 pulls away on the straights, but is caught in the carousel. #1 thinks "if I can just nail the carousel, I'll put some time between us" or "I don't want to be stuck behind this guy". And so no pass and the battle between #1 and #2 goes on lap after lap - meanwhile, #3 is one of those gods of DE, the "real" race car drivers like Scott running 1:26s who are being held up by your slow asses and being deprived of the opportunity to prove to the scouts in the stands from McLaren what they can really do.

In red, there is significantly more awareness of who is who and how fast (relatively) everyone is. I know in general who is faster or slower than me, so if I do get stuck in a train (like, for example, during red/black combined sessions) I'll typically let the faster guys go, even though I'm "next". One thing about doing this is it will often break the mental block of the train conductor - a new car in the rear view gives him that "holy shit" moment and gets the arm out the window. This followed by you coming up behind him immediately after will typically earn you a pass as well. So, in your situation - if I spent two laps behind the conductor without a pass, I'd let the guy behind me go if for no other reason than to try and break the log jam.

Then again, some guys are just egotistical douchebags who will never believe anyone is faster than them and will always be train conductors. These guys have zero track awareness and I like to think we keep them in black :lol:

[racer]

Do we know if car 1 in Evan's video was some kind of "check out ride" gone wrong ;)

That said, passing in corners is "optional" and those not getting a signal to pass in the corners may need to adjust expectations.

Is there a "rat out" method in place to note frequent offenders? In a blue or novice group, an instructor might search out the offenders instructor and have a conversation.

I will say, I have noticed in some other regions, that sometimes the biggest offender to the lack of signal is the chief instructor!

[racer]

In red, there is significantly more awareness of who is who and how fast (relatively) everyone is. I know in general who is faster or slower than me, so if I do get stuck in a train (like, for example, during red/black combined sessions) I'll typically let the faster guys go, even though I'm "next". One thing about doing this is it will often break the mental block of the train conductor - a new car in the rear view gives him that "holy shit" moment and gets the arm out the window. This followed by you coming up behind him immediately after will typically earn you a pass as well. So, in your situation - if I spent two laps behind the conductor without a pass, I'd let the guy behind me go if for no other reason than to try and break the log jam.

Then again, some guys are just egotistical douchebags who will never believe anyone is faster than them and will always be train conductors. These guys have zero track awareness and I like to think we keep them in black :lol:

x2

[N Fotouhi]

Also please be aware that if there is a car behind you with a really cool paint job and has like really cool permanent numbers and racing stripes on it... it's probably a race car driver and not just a DE driver. We are faster and superior drivers than average DE guys so please be courteous. We are fast. Early signals are appreciated....

:roll: Pleeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....................

Come on TR, you know he drives Flat out:D

[FTS]

Can we use flahers and horn? :D

[Dr K]

First, a RED car with numbers is likely running 1:26's. A BLACK car with numbers (other than "2") might be a different story...at least for now! But please don't tell the "regular" conductors in black, as (for now) they're letting me by.

Second, in Black the "rat out" method is to go up to the driver, whom we know, and just mention you have several laps of video of them - which was several laps minus a fraction of a lap too long. Then have lunch with other black drivers at the table within hearing distance of the CI's, and discuss the trains and conductors. They've been talked to, and (other than that video) things have seemed a bit better this year.

Third, I sure do like driving on the track

Fourth, I'm looking to borrow or rent a 2-in (1- or 2-out) high flow muffler for 1-2 weeks if someone has one sitting around.

[whitecar]

" a new car in the rear view gives him that "holy shit" moment and gets the arm out the window. This followed by you coming up behind him immediately after will typically earn you a pass as well. "



This is the key... starts with the 3rd car... just show a different face and it changes quickly... this works in Red.

bob

[Vicegrip]

In red, there is significantly more awareness of who is who and how fast (relatively) everyone is. I know in general who is faster or slower than me, so if I do get stuck in a train (like, for example, during red/black combined sessions) I'll typically let the faster guys go, even though I'm "next". One thing about doing this is it will often break the mental block of the train conductor - a new car in the rear view gives him that "holy shit" moment and gets the arm out the window. This followed by you coming up behind him immediately after will typically earn you a pass as well. So, in your situation - if I spent two laps behind the conductor without a pass, I'd let the guy behind me go if for no other reason than to try and break the log jam.

Then again, some guys are just egotistical douchebags who will never believe anyone is faster than them and will always be train conductors. These guys have zero track awareness and I like to think we keep them in black :lol:Agree except for keeping them in black. I say keep them off the track. Chronic poor passing should earn a side line chat, during their next run group, at length, with powerpoint and a 10 question essay test. Sadly this should not be an issue if mirrors and arms are in full use. Start gentle and increase as needed. Chat, long chat, real long chat during the run, slash tires, 5 guys with soap in socks in an enclosed trailer, leave car unattended in the dorki dog-pound and watch it get stripped to bare sheet metal.

Bold. All kidding aside. There is no place for this in any non instructed group. By the time you get to the upper groups you should have had more than enough training and correction to know better. Trains are due to training. Lack of training. Passing is no different than pit out procedures or flag reading. Poor pass giving creates unsafe conditions.

" a new car in the rear view gives him that "holy shit" moment and gets the arm out the window. This followed by you coming up behind him immediately after will typically earn you a pass as well. "



This is the key... starts with the 3rd car... just show a different face and it changes quickly... this works in Red.

bobWhat sucks is when the guy you were having a good time chasing gets a pass but you don't. :grrr: Laying back, pit in and out helps but kills you from running with other like time cars at times.

We humans are an odd lot. Too many variables.

[Ryan]

Ryan, is the video actually there?
Can you not see it?

[Toby]

A move to Black or Red should be provisional. You get an X just like in CR. A real one or just on paper. Be Thomas the Train engine and you get to take one step back after getting reported by enough non X holders. Non X holders have a duty to note poor passing methods on the upper run groups.



Is there a "rat out" method in place to note frequent offenders? In a blue or novice group, an instructor might search out the offenders instructor and have a conversation.


I think we need to make it mandatory to put bid car numbers at the back of the car. Would make it easy for everyone to report to the stewards/CIs.

[FTS]

Can you not see it?

Nope.

[Landjet]

It is working on my computer.

[Ryan]

Nope.

Now? (Can anyone else see? )

For Bob on Vimeo



(http://www.vimeo.com/13947938)

[FTS]

Yep :)

And, yes, it is quite different than what I have seen in Black that one time that I ran.

[roundel]

Plays for me.

I don't understand ego over being passed. I think of it as running with different classes in ALMS. Even if I am Patrick Long, I need to let McNish by. :cool:

[Chopper Dropper]

Passing in corners as said is not mandatory according to PCA BUT if one is not comfortable with it, move back to white. The whole issue is situational awareness which comes with experience. There is always a speed differential in all groups and in all races (ask Mark Webber). An aware driver (even half blind) should be able to see other cars in the mirror. I understand Kurt's point especially in the years he spent in the 912, that he for sure earnewd that pass and letting a faster car by would loose 3 laps of momentum he built up. I will be asking the flaggers to report conductors and black flag them, may not work and probably the non guilty party will be the one who responds to the black flag cause the conductor has not seen it.!!
It is not ratting out to come in and complain, we can not be out there all the time to monitor it. Have a quiet word with the offenders,if that does not work, take it up with CIs or Chief Steward at pit out who can then come to Bob or myself and we will spend some time counselling. This applies to all groups and not just passing in corners.
Dirk

[Jase007]

It still takes me a moment to get used to seeing a drover in short sleeves and shorts ... with gloves on. :lol:

*alarm bells go off in the noggin! cover-up! cover-up! ;)

[FTS]

Now? (Can anyone else see? )

For Bob on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/13947938)



(http://www.vimeo.com/13947938)

After upgrading the OS on the iPad, I cannot see embeded Vimeo videos, I can see Yahoo ones though, strange.

[Der ABT]

Ive had some good responses to this and a few people angry/not happy with me what can ya do, im glad most people see what i was trying to show.

I was posting this mainly to show that there is improvement that can be made easily and hope that it would work a little better at porschefest. When there was just two cars in a passing situation i think the passing worked very well, not many passes from 5-9 and in corners themselves but ..

thanks for posting the red vid ryan definately some better examples

Thanks for posting the video of about 8 laps of my car (the silver 944 turbo).
But for those laps that I was held up in traffic, and didn't know how fast or slow the cars were behind me, was I wrong not throwing a pass to the guy behind me? I don't think so, because I didn't know if the person behind me was faster or slower as the pace was quite slow.


I have alot of laps playing with you, you stayed behind me for a while in some other sessions then took off. I want a turbo...185 hp is fun but 250+looks like alot more haha..i gotta talk to scott and see how he gets his turbo past scruitineering though i was somehow able to match his 126s when not in traffic

I dont think there is really a wrong, but i think the offline/along side stuff would have made me just let him pass and then if i have to repass i have to repass, yeh it can backfire but im hoping bringing things like this up will make the group a little more aware and less chance of a backfire. again just me... fun time though Jim you ran well, GET A COOL SUIT they are sweet.

[Trak Ratt]

It still takes me a moment to get used to seeing a drover in short sleeves and shorts ... with gloves on. :lol:

*alarm bells go off in the noggin! cover-up! cover-up! ;)You'd be thanking dog if you had been there! 102 track temp at pit out in the afternoon!!!

[Alan Herod]

You'd be thanking dog if you had been there! 102 track temp at pit out in the afternoon!!!

I'm pretty sure that was air temp. also, there was a 30 degree surface temp difference between white and dark cars.

[MLIN]

I'm pretty sure that was air temp. also, there was a 30 degree surface temp difference between white and dark cars.

Yes, dark car drivers are operating under harsher conditions. And they are generally faster than white car drivers, and in most cases, sexier. Yea, definitely.