[Jase007]

Q: neck collar or not?
Q: HANS, Hutchens, Isaac, D-cel, Simpson, etc...?
Q: overkill for Club racing, HSR, SVRA, NASA, 944 Cup, etc...?

Caveat: I don't profess to be an expert on this subject and there are probably several others that will read this and know far more than I have gleaned. With that said, this is what I have learned and wanted to share with the board.

For the past couple of months I have been researching Hans Device or Simpson, Hutchens Device, Isaac device, D-cel, etc... ad naseum b/c of the shunt my father had in turn 3 at Jeff 500 2004. Similar to another he had in WG several years ago and one I had way back when at Bridgehampton. Ordered the HANS for him this week (extra hardware for my helmet to share) and will evaluate at the SVRA finale at VIR october 14-17.

Neck collar or Not?

As you know, you want the least amount of weight attached to or pushing up on your head trying to rip it from your body in the impact. From what I have read, the collar adds weight to this equation like the handle weight on a bodyman's slide hammer.

However: I have heard (not seen) of drivers using both a head and neck restraint system and a neck brace / collar. In that scenario ... the lateral support is there but I don't know if the device really prevents the slide hammer effect. Also, some of the devices (like HANS) don't allow the collar to sit well on your shoulders.

I will not wear one, with or without a HANS type device. If you are having lateral G neck issues, I have a Recaro SPG racer seat for sale (same as in the touring cars) that has HUGE head safety hoops to lean your head against ... (no, they are not designed for use that way).

Overkill for amateur racing?

I don't think so. Saw many a HANS equipped driver at the SP club races and all of the other races mentioned above. Just another ~$1K investment in your safety system in this "not so cheap" hobby of ours.

Talk about information overload!!

Eventually, I think I will try the Hutchens device or the Isaac device but will have to see after trying the HANS.

Thanks for the bandwidth... and yes, I realize starting this topic is like opening Pandora's Box

Jase

[DAR951]

There are a number of detailed threads (one going as I type) on just this subject in the "race and DE" forum over on Rennlist. A ton of info to sift through to be sure, but for the most part pretty good stuff.

A few highlights:

The impacts that can induce the displacements that can maim or kill us don't have to be especially high speed, so Club racing can have the exposures F1 does;

It's increasingly important to think of safety systems, rather than individual components. Belts, seat, seat mount, cage, window and center nets, H&N device, all need to work together:

A few specifics:

Neck collars may help make you more comfortable and prevent muscle fatigue, but sled testing shows they do virtually nothing to prevent serious injury (don't bother using them with a H&N device);

H&N devices are designed to defend again rapid longitudinal (along the length of the car) deceleration, and do little/nothing in side impacts. Head AND SHOULDER restraint seats are needed to cover side impacts, as are window and center nets. (Note, there is considerable discussion of the need for shoulder "wings" on head restraint seats.)

The most comprehensive test generally available is one from SAE that doesn't include the Isaac. However, of all the others, only the Hans comes even close to arresting head movement within "safe" limits. I know at least one Dorki that has and has read this paper... Post a request for his thinking and I'd bet he'll respond.

That's barely scratching the surface, hope it starts to help...

PS. Is your Recaro the SPG PRO Racer, or just the plain "Racer"? Looking for the PRO (head "wings" are closed and closer in).

[Jim Richards]

Jase, I have been thinking about this as well. The HANS & Isaac were discussed in an interesting thread on Pelican a while back. That thread sure got me thinking, and you're opening of Pandora's Box on this helps me re-focus on an obvious gap in my investment in safety systems. Keep us posted on the results of your trial of the HANS.

[Jase007]

DAR951? (know you have a turbo but ... who are you?- your profile is empty)

I've read most of the rennlist and PP threads on the subject and one of the reasons I mentioned "safety system" is that everything we do in the cockpit including the cage and frame all have to work together.

I've also read excerpts of the SAE report, interviewed amateur / pro-drivers, talked to team managers, friends who are engineers, etc.... I feel I have gathered quite a bit of information, enough to make a semi-informed decision.

Here is the recaro seat (not the one you are looking for I think). It is a Recaro Racer.



Do u wear a H&N device? race? just curious. Anyone else thinking of getting one of these type of devices? If you are, which are you leaning towards and maybe tell us why...

Jim R:
I never had the thought to wear one for DE over the last 19 years. Probably should have when I got to the higher levels. I am thinking of one now as I am getting a lot of race track time (tub, 2.0L, IROC) and climbing behind the wheel of the "beast" for VIR.

Jason

[Jim Richards]

I was thinking that DE really has the same risks as racing. We make mistakes as we learn. If I'm not mistaken, most every DE event has someone balling up a car or two. Knock on wood. :o

[Jase007]

If I'm not mistaken, most every DE event has someone balling up a car or two.

Unfortunately, I think you are right that DEs have some of the same risk. I just think you are on the edge less (where you take risks) b/c you aren't trying to maintain or gain a position in the DE. Yet, like the 16 year old learning how to drive, you are at the steepest part of the learning curve when you first start DE b/c of lack of seat time / experience. I think this is why people ball up their cars in DEs but, is just a guess.

I won't go into a diatribe on the purpose of a DE (been covered ad naseum) but, I will say the goal of a DE is different than the goal of racing.
However, crashing from mechanical failure is still crashing and I would never discourage anyone from improving their safety systems in their car .

The good news on the HANS is that the helmet anchors and an extra set of quick release tethers is only about $125. If I don't like it ... not out that much, if I do, one less thing to buy for the system.

Jase[/quote]

[DAR951]

Originally Posted by Jase007

DAR951? (know you have a turbo but ... who are you?- your profile is empty)Jason

Jason,

Thanks for the seat info, you're right, not the one I'm looking at.

Sounds like you've done at least as much research as I have re. a H&N device, cockpit safety systems, etc. I'm in the process of upgrading, thus the interest in the seat (I'm also looking hard at a couple of the Race Tech head restraint models). I'm not currently wearing anything other than the collar that I mentioned was worthless! But a Hans is on my list with the seat.

I spend a lot of time on the track, most in the right hand seat (I teach for BSR) so there's a lot of exposure that's just not practical for me to protect against, beyond the old helmet (open face so I can be heard by all in the car) and collar system. As I get older, I feel like I can dodge bullets for only so long... it only takes the one time, that time none of us thinks will happen to him...

Anyway, to answer (sort of) your original question, I instruct for Potomac and (if YOU are who I think you are) my wife was your HPDC student in the black WRX a year ago....

[Jase007]

I'm also looking hard at a couple of the Race Tech head restraint models

I need to check that one out.

As I get older, I feel like I can dodge bullets for only so long... it only takes the one time, that time none of us thinks will happen to him...

This is true and along the lines of my thinking as well.

(if YOU are who I think you are) my wife was your HPDC student in the black WRX a year ago....

Yes, I remember you ... and your wife...and the WRX ... very nice car 8) I had AWD envy that day as my '90 325iX has about half the Hp as your WRX One of my students at the recent HPDC had a '05 WRX STI. I went around a few laps with him and in stock trim...the car can move! I think it might be my next AWD unless I can get a 330Xi for reasonable $.

Jason

[Don Wohlfarth]

It's even worse than Pandora's box.
It looks like the HANS device may be the leader by default. It is the only device approved for F1. At the same time there is sometype of collaboration between HANS and either FIA or F1. Other sanctioning groups have approved some of the other devices.
There is also some concern with corner workers/safety crew having the proper training to unlatch/remove the different devices.
Jim, I'm not sure that I agree that most every DE event has someone balling up a car or two. Having some damaged body work is a fairly long way from balling up a car but it does happen. From the Potomac FAQ page:
"Overall, you must be willing to face the very real possibility that your baby may suffer the indignity of having its beautiful flowing lines “adjusted,” but physical injury to drivers and passengers is generally infrequent and mostly minor. To the best of our knowledge, no one has ever been killed or suffered any permanent disability as a result of an incident at a PCA DE. Finally, you largely control the extent of the risk. If you drive within your limits as you learn, and carefully work your way up to improving your skills and going faster, you can limit the risk associated with going off-track. Your instructor is there to help you learn, and will certainly push you from time-to-time, but he/she does not want to push you past where you feel comfortable. If you do not feel you are ready to try something your instructor has suggested, tell them. You will both feel better about it in the end. It is not a sign of weakness to back off; it is a sign of stupidity to take unnecessary chances."
Track driving is a high risk sport.

[DAR951]

Originally Posted by Jase007

I need to check that one out. Jason

US Distributor Web site: http://www.racetech-na.com/start.html

Originally Posted by Jase007

Yes, I remember you ... and your wife...and the WRX ... very nice car 8) I had AWD envy that day as my '90 325iX has about half the Hp as your WRX One of my students at the recent HPDC had a '05 WRX STI. I went around a few laps with him and in stock trim...the car can move! I think it might be my next AWD unless I can get a 330Xi for reasonable $.Jason

I've had a number of students with new STi's... they are everything the old WRX wasn't, but should have been with an "extra" 33% hoursepower! Can't really find a thing needing improvement, even for the track... and still a great deal.

See you at Summit tomorrow...