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  #41  
Old 02-18-2015, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackTalon View Post
The TECH situation you refer to is for DEs, not Club Racing. The Club Racing inspection/ logbook sigh-off is performed by the National Scrutineers. They do thinks like drill the roll bar to check tube thicknesses, etc.
But with racing, you get an annual tech, meaning that the condition of things like brake pads, tires, bearings, are at the driver's discretion. Once you have your annual tech stamp, you just show the log book and your helmet/HANS to get through tech. That's one of the things that surprised me about racing. And the two times I went to DEs it was funny to have to have the car teched even though I could have raced it.
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  #42  
Old 02-18-2015, 12:40 PM
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Reading through this thread I was reminded of a situation many years ago at a FATT. Sometime in the middle of the day we had a driver’s meeting. As a licensed racer I was there as an instructor and as such I used all my personal safety gear – suit, gloves, balaclava, etc. I was a little out of place as everyone else was in street clothes, short sleeves and the like.

As the meeting broke up and participants began going to their cars, one smart ass guy walking past asked me “Who the F you think you are – Mario Andretti?” My response, “I have the safety equipment, why not use it?”

A little while latter that same participant was on his roof, on top of the tire wall to driver’s right, on fire in the chute.

It’s just a FATT where no passing is allowed in the corners. What could possibly go wrong?

I can’t count or remember all the cars I’ve seen go home on the hook or on a flat bed at the end of a FATT, HPDE, or other non-race “track day”.

Yep, it’s a different environment from racing, and there is less chance of metal to metal contact, but when the crap hits the fan the results are often the same.

Some of the blame for the type of thing mentioned in the original post here HAS to sit squarely on the shoulders of the people responsible for doing Tech at these events. The best safety equipment in the world isn’t going to save your butt if it isn’t installed correctly.

One of the first races I attended as a crew for a 911 driver was at Pocono in the early 80’s. We were running one of the course configurations that dumped the cars out onto the big track just past NASCAR pit out. This required a right turn onto the main straight. That transition was (and still is) a pretty rough section of track.

A driver in a Datsun 510 spun and hit the wall with the passenger’s side of his car. The seat failed and the driver hit his head on the wall as his body tried to leave through the passenger’s window. He was removed from the track in a helicopter.

At that event we began what became habit for us. Going to look at every car that was taken to impound following an incident and looking to see what failed and what held up.

Some of the failures have been pretty alarming. In the case of the Datsun 510, the seat was held in with a few large pop rivets. Back then SCCA didn’t require the seat back to be fastened to the roll bar. So on impact with the wall, the weight of the driver’s body simply overcame the holding ability of a few rivets and the seat tried to exit the vehicle with the driver.

I’m also reminded of being at a PCA race talking to a driver who’s car had JUST come through Tech. We reached down and with about 1-1/2 turns, unbolted his lap belt anchor with fingers.

I realize Tech Inspector’s don’t have time or the ability to check everything on every car, but some things that I’ve seen get passed are so blatant that it really makes you wonder sometimes what they are looking at. Like the PVC roll bar we put in the Datsun B210 years ago to try out slicks at an autocross.

I’ve been away from PCA racing for a couple years, so I don’t know how things are currently being done, but I never liked the TECH situation where you were supposed to take your car to competent shop to have it teched and get your papers filled out.

On way too many occasions I saw papers filled out where the inspector never looked at the car. The good old boys network.
I read this post and amen.....the longest few seconds on track are when the laws of physics are in control of your car and it is going to stop by means other than the brakes. You have time to review your safety equipment on that ride to the impact zone. At 70 mph...it might just be a lot of damage, at 125mph it gets a lot more serious. Lower the top speeds or add safety equipment are really your only choices.

I spent way too many weekends at T1 at CMS. SCCA was the only show.... we ran safety at the club , IMSA and Nascar road races. I will never forget the SR on its top at T1 with gas poring down the driver neck into his helmet. He had installed his roll over valve upside down. We could not flip the car until the safety steward was on site. Long 3 minutes for that driver. The corners are now locked at most tracks. If you do not know what that means and track a car, you may want to ask the event chair. Expect a 3 minute wait after impact, before help is dispatched.
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  #43  
Old 02-18-2015, 12:49 PM
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While there is a lot of good information in this thread, some things like expecting a 3 minute wait before help is even dispatched is not the norm for the PCA events I attend (referring to serious contact incidents)
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  #44  
Old 02-18-2015, 01:05 PM
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My wife works for a small engineering consulting firm; the vast majority of their business is with the nuke energy industry. This conversation is beginning to sound quite a lot like what the nuclear industry goes through.


What I'm hearing is "the presumed disaster has such a high severity (if it were to occur in the first place) that no matter how low the probability, it's just not worth it". When designing a plant, the key challenge is (a) assessing the severity/impact of all potential points of failure, and (b) implementing an engineered solution which brings the probability of failure sufficiently low that the incident severity is no longer a driving concern.


While cars are MUCH faster than they have ever been, there are certain realities we have to face (Greg succinctly called them out above). I agree that small, incremental, and iterative changes are the only way to address this; broad, sweeping sanctions like capping top speed will risk killing the sport if implemented too early.


We also must look at the data (and do a better job of logging/tracking incidents). What is the TRUE probability of a Severity X Incident? How about Severity Y? Yes, driving is a risk. But so is bicycling in the city, or rock climbing, or playing soccer.
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  #45  
Old 02-18-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ausgeflippt951 View Post
Yes, driving is a risk. But so is bicycling in the city, or rock climbing, or playing soccer.
And according to Cliff, selecting wives, cars, and tools

All good info. The compromise for some of us without the $850K when dealing with even a primarily track car driven to the track is one I've been wrestling with, especially after inspecting VG's solution and approach. I'd love to see a roll cage design with easy ingress/egress across the doors, like a removable door bar, but that is, of course, a compromise.
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  #46  
Old 02-18-2015, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausgeflippt951 View Post
My wife works for a small engineering consulting firm; the vast majority of their business is with the nuke energy industry. This conversation is beginning to sound quite a lot like what the nuclear industry goes through.


What I'm hearing is "the presumed disaster has such a high severity (if it were to occur in the first place) that no matter how low the probability, it's just not worth it". When designing a plant, the key challenge is (a) assessing the severity/impact of all potential points of failure, and (b) implementing an engineered solution which brings the probability of failure sufficiently low that the incident severity is no longer a driving concern.


While cars are MUCH faster than they have ever been, there are certain realities we have to face (Greg succinctly called them out above). I agree that small, incremental, and iterative changes are the only way to address this; broad, sweep


We also must look at the data (and do a better job of logging/tracking incidents). What is the TRUE probability of a Severity X Incident? How about Severity Y? Yes, driving is a risk. But so is bicycling in the city, or rock climbing, or playing soccer.
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  #47  
Old 02-18-2015, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by old worker View Post
The rocket ships can almost drive themselves north of 160mph, yet in the same group we can have cars that 115mph top speed is it. Driver experience level, very important in this situation.
^this

We are deep into this topic at the local club level. The discussions seem akin to ye'ol guns don't kill, people do debate.... Speed limits, IMO, would do little to address the more important issue of developing drivers that are promoted through the system when they've proven their ability to manage speed differentials through situational awareness and on-track predictability. It has to be a group effort from classroom instruction, to in-car and through observing group & individual behaviors on track. It's a continual process and something we are really committed to instilling in our members.
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  #48  
Old 02-18-2015, 04:09 PM
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One thing that has been bugging me for many years is tires. Like other speed secrets, once your competition discovers them they no longer become an advantage.

Recently there have been a couple MotorWeek videos posted on these boards of track tests of cars from 30 years ago. When the test video of the 928 appeared, I got a call from the guy who drove my E-Production Golf 2 years ago on treaded street tires bragging how he had gone faster then the 928 at Summit Point. And trust me, he’s no Mario Andretti! Almost any seasoned driver could step into that car and cut another 5 to 10 seconds off his lap times.

Part of the problem is that tire manufacturers want to sell tires. And to do that they have to provide tires that work better then their competitor’s tires. The result is that EVERYONE going to the track these days has better and much faster STREET tires then were available to any racer 30 years ago.

With that technology in tires, lap times have decreased tremendously, and speeds have increased way past where a lot of people’s skill levels top out.

Add the technology increases of the cars themselves to the better tires and even a bottom of the line grocery getter can out perform top of the line sports and performance cars from days gone by.

Throw in a whole lot of nannies that do the driving for you and you really loose the ability to improve your driving skills.

What all this means is that when things go wrong, the impact and severity of the incidents are increasing with time.

Motor sports would certainly be more exciting if we went back to running skinny Michelin X radials to the cars like what was fitted to a new 911 in 1965.

After all, when was the last time you actually saw a race car in a 4 wheel drift? That skill isn’t even in a driver’s tool box any more. The cars are hooked up all the time – until they aren’t and that’s when things are going really bad.
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  #49  
Old 02-18-2015, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N0tt0N View Post
.... I'd love to see a roll cage design with easy ingress/egress across the doors, like a removable door bar, but that is, of course, a compromise.
My car has them and I don't feel particularly "at risk" for them being bolt in. Makes around town use less of a chore when out too. Seem to remember a '44 drover that had his door bars hinged so they swung open w/door. I think Charlie came up w/that option when he rebuilt his famous "stock" motor.
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  #50  
Old 02-18-2015, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Drscope View Post
After all, when was the last time you actually saw a race car in a 4 wheel drift? That skill isn’t even in a driver’s tool box any more.
You don't race do you? You are in a four wheel drift nearly every corner. Its just not as egregious looking as is used to be as modern slip angles are lower. The skill is not only there, its even more refined than before out of necessity.
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