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  #11  
Old 07-15-2014, 05:48 PM
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Geo might be nearly the same cost as your GT3. I would look at the payback time since the last time we talked utility bills your consumption was mighty low. Plus geo will not solve the stove issue but a small Honda generator could manage that task.

Propane and Heating Oil are both $$ while NG is cheap but as you pointed out difficult to deliver.
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  #12  
Old 07-15-2014, 07:30 PM
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Yes to the tank rental. 1 example is you sign up for x term to rent the tank and gas delivered. Rate goes up and you've paid for the tank by now but you signed a contract... rate goes up again.

Buy the tank up front and you can choose the supplier. You also need to figure out how big a tank you want. Above ground or below? With a big enough tank, or several smaller tanks, you have some room to buy when price is low, ha! never. Something to think about.

I'm a broken record, have you priced propane lately?

Something to consider is a mini split heat pump as primary heat and the current mix of oil, wood, pellets as backup. The geo HP is a great idea, but as mentioned expensive to install, but with a long term lower operating cost in many cases. Really depends on system design and your expectations though.

Really out there, solar hot water system. I've been reading about it as an option for my addition. Since you already have the pipes in place.... might be a good supplemental system. Basically there's a collector, a pump, a few water lines and maybe a storage tank. Can be pretty elegant.
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:27 PM
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Bob,
I went through this and numerous calculations last winter for nearly the same deal. We researched switching over to a forced air heat pump, geo-thermal, a more efficient oil boiler, or propane. Like you, the house is in the sticks so natural gas wasn't an option. We had a 1000g propane tank already so that made our calculations a little different. Here's a quick summary.

Oil - Expensive and will continue to remain that way. More efficient BTU's per gallon, but when you do a cost comparison with the efficiency differences it comes out in propane's favor in our case. Plus oil is dirty and it shows. Soot everywhere in an old house.

Geo-Thermal - Add a few zeros! I don't know if folks are marking stuff up cause they know the government will give a 30% credit, but it was still way out of wack with reality and the return was decades out. We asked for quotes from 3 different geo providers and none could provide a radiant system for the size of our house so they all proposed forced air heat pump solutions. Not what we wanted and then when you added the huge price difference and plus the need to update the sizing on the air ducts it was ridiculous. like 40-50K over what we ended up doing.

Propane boiler - We got quotes from many installers. Two also had oil businesses so pushed the idea that oil was better than propane and jacked up their propane system quotes in my mind. The remaining independent installers said propane was getting more traction and the efficiency is hard to beat. We went for a modern design 96+ efficient tankless boiler from Carrier. It is super quiet and incredibly small compared to the 1,800 pound oil boiler we got rid of. It tied into our existing radiator lines and looks clean.

We are very happy with the install and unit, but won't recommend the installer. It took too long and we had some awful timing with a few sub zero heatless days while they were trying to get their act together. They fixed things eventually (20 days) and didn't charge us for any more than the agreed upon price so I won't bad mouth them, but I'm not going to give them any more business either.

My advice is do it before it gets cold and buy your propane now. The prices are dramatically higher during the winter. We are contemplating another 1000G tank so we can take advantage of summer prices and run all winter long. We also have a 40KW propane generator and chef grade 8 burner stove so we go through a bit more than most.

Feel free to call if you want to chat about details, but hopefully this provides a bit of help for you.

Best,
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  #14  
Old 10-06-2014, 06:53 AM
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It sounds like for propane to make sense, one needs an ultra efficient furnace since the btu per gallon is less than with oil. The techs I spoke to seemed to think the added cost for an ultra efficient propane furnace would never be made up in fuel savings since propane tends to be more expensive. High 80% efficient oil or propane systems cost similar. The Mrs wants propane. I want oil. Now time is getting short.
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Old 10-06-2014, 07:18 AM
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Be sure that your desired cooking stove can function without electricity if you are planning to use it as a backup. I have heard that most new stoves have automatic shut-off valves that turn off the propane supply unless electricity is being supplied. This prevents leakage and explosion risk during an outage. Same question could be asked about the furnace, which I assume will also use electric pumps to circulate heated water.
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Old 10-06-2014, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundel View Post
It sounds like for propane to make sense, one needs an ultra efficient furnace since the btu per gallon is less than with oil. The techs I spoke to seemed to think the added cost for an ultra efficient propane furnace would never be made up in fuel savings since propane tends to be more expensive. High 80% efficient oil or propane systems cost similar. The Mrs wants propane. I want oil. Now time is getting short.
Why does she want oil? Dopes she have a reason for oil over other methods.? Sounds like it 6 or one 6/12s of the other. Get a wood stove along with freshing up the existing heat system and you are done.
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Old 10-06-2014, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Vicegrip View Post
Why does she want oil? Dopes she have a reason for oil over other methods.? Sounds like it 6 or one 6/12s of the other.
She wants propane. Its cleaner. Its more efficient. Her family had it (although they actually heated with oil and used propane for fireplaces and stove.)

I want oil. Its cheaper. More BTUs per gallon. Unless going with more expensive ultra high efficient furnace, the efficiency is very close. If there is a propane leak - boom. If we run out during a snowstorm and no truck can run up the driveway, I can go buy diesel. I cannot buy propane for the furnace.

We have an electric water heater so either furnace will not be turned on for 1/2 the year.
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  #18  
Old 10-06-2014, 08:48 AM
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i understand wanting a gas stove--it's nicer to cook on gas than electric (though an electric oven is nice). but i don't understand why having a gas stove necessarily dictates type of heat when you already have a buried oil tank. why not keep your buried oil tank, get new oil furnace, and then add a propane tank for a gas stove. that way you have what you want and the mrs. is happy as well. your reasons for wanting an oil furnace are sound.
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  #19  
Old 10-06-2014, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundel View Post
She wants propane. Its cleaner. Its more efficient. Her family had it (although they actually heated with oil and used propane for fireplaces and stove.)

I want oil. Its cheaper. More BTUs per gallon. Unless going with more expensive ultra high efficient furnace, the efficiency is very close. If there is a propane leak - boom. If we run out during a snowstorm and no truck can run up the driveway, I can go buy diesel. I cannot buy propane for the furnace.

We have an electric water heater so either furnace will not be turned on for 1/2 the year.
Both are "clean" when working properly. am oil furnace that stinks is not running right and not safe, same as for a gas furnace too.

You have to look are real world service life when trying to figure an ROI. some stuff looks OK on paper but not in real life. Look at tankless hot water systems. Sounds great, has more issues and can go $$$ parts dead on you far more often than a standard tank heater. some folks live them and they are great in some setups and use profiles but not all.

20 year old furnace might be able to be sorted out and be put in good shape. For me a 20+ year old inground tank is a worry. They can leak a oil plume into you prop and cause a $$$$$$$$$$$$$ nightmare of an issue. Waht do you want to improve or change? Is gas cooking the driving goal? any water coming into in the tank? Do you have test wells around the tank
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  #20  
Old 10-06-2014, 09:19 AM
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The Mrs and I both agree the buried oil tank is to go. We are both scared of a leak into the ground. We live near a major water supply so the risk is too scary. This is not part of the decision. We want it gone BEFORE it becomes a problem. Period.

Propane provides about 92,000 BTUs per gallon. Heating oil provides about 138,700 BTUs per gallon. By my stupid painter math, propane provides 66% of the BTUs oil does. I am having trouble seeing how a couple percentage points of efficiency in propane's favor can make up that difference.
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