[Potomac-Greg]

I think overplaying the danger element would scare off cautious people and leave you with a concentration of thrill-seekers.

I like the idea of instructing the intermediate groups on the value of increasing safety equipment as the driver's commitment to the hobby increases.

And, following up on John's point, that Haasmobility program (Greg Haas) is very much what you are talking about. You get on track with someone else's car, and you are free to try things that you wouldn't or couldn't do in a race or a track day. You ever wonder what it would be like to enter Summit Turn 3 or Turn 10 without using brakes, just flick to scrub off speed? You can't do that in a race or a track day. Not with other cars around. But that could be a real learning moment.

[Fumes]

Originally Posted by Dr K

But I think our club is as good as any in bringing safety to the fore without trying to scare people away, and in making sure the cars are as safe as possible.

Totally agree with the good Doctor here. I've been tumbling off the slippery cliff for all of a year but Potomac is definitely the most safety conscious and information/techInspection heavy experience Ive encountered so far.

[old worker]

Originally Posted by vranko

But I still would win My point was that I would often like to take the car beyond the slip angle that would be optimal for winning to practice car control correction skills. I'd would dedicate a few runs though to put down a good time

amen...... you have not lived until you have trashed a set of tires in a weekend! pitch and drift and just good old fashion over driving can be a hoot.
(easier for me I am on BP cantilever slicks most of the time)

there is more to HPDE than laying one perfect line down...after another.

[old worker]

Originally Posted by Potomac-Greg

I think overplaying the danger element would scare off cautious people and leave you with a concentration of thrill-seekers.

I like the idea of instructing the intermediate groups on the value of increasing safety equipment as the driver's commitment to the hobby increases.

And, following up on John's point, that Haasmobility program (Greg Haas) is very much what you are talking about. You get on track with someone else's car, and you are free to try things that you wouldn't or couldn't do in a race or a track day. You ever wonder what it would be like to enter Summit Turn 3 or Turn 10 without using brakes, just flick to scrub off speed? You can't do that in a race or a track day. Not with other cars around. But that could be a real learning moment.

or you could tighten up the PCA program..... the thrill seekers might go trash the for profits and less disciplined clubs?
there was a time when you had to have a P car to run a PCA event?

more than one bottle of silver oak has been invested on this idea....

[Vicegrip]

There was a time when pica events were all sold out and we had to restrict entry to members / porsche only

Have the newer cars been shown to be more dangerous? The modern wet motor 911 is now well established in DE and commonplace. Has the life risking wrecks increased when graphed out per driven mile?

Are we discussing something that could happen but is not in real world?

[old worker]

Originally Posted by Vicegrip

There was a time when pica events were all sold out and we had to restrict entry to members / porsche only

Have the newer cars been shown to be more dangerous? The modern wet motor 911 is now well established in DE and commonplace. Has the life risking wrecks increased when graphed out per driven mile?

Are we discussing something that could happen but is not in real world?

I understand this view, it is why I advocate better discloser of the down side of HPDE. Yes I think capping top speeds on cars with passengers and factory safety equipment is a good idea, and two workers per station is a better HPDE product as well as safer, but that is not going to happen until the tracks or members force it. Another club or for profit with poor managing skills (like SP death last year) and bad luck will force an insurance underwriter to "set new guidelines". The tracks will not be able to "qualify" one club as being safer than another, they cannot take on that risk. Today there is much more information out there that explains the risk at HPDE events, yet much of it is diverted, this could end up being problematic as well. Family members that have to clean up after a poorly managed incident could end up being very bitter. Some see this "possibility" as a "probability ". PCA came very close to losing an another PCA instructor this summer in TN. That region has a great safety record, too.

[pkauffman]

Originally Posted by old worker

I understand this view, it is why I advocate better discloser of the down side of HPDE. Yes I think capping top speeds on cars with passengers and factory safety equipment is a good idea, and two workers per station is a better HPDE product as well as safer, but that is not going to happen until the tracks or members force it. Another club or for profit with poor managing skills (like SP death last year) and bad luck will force an insurance underwriter to "set new guidelines". The tracks will not be able to "qualify" one club as being safer than another, they cannot take on that risk. Today there is much more information out there that explains the risk at HPDE events, yet much of it is diverted, this could end up being problematic as well. Family members that have to clean up after a poorly managed incident could end up being very bitter. Some see this "possibility" as a "probability ". PCA came very close to losing an another PCA instructor this summer in TN. That region has a great safety record, too.

What an awesome discussion! Many great ideas and experiences. I advocate a rethinking of HPDE. There are so many great things about the program that we all have experienced as beginners, as unleashed drivers, as instructors, as organizers. At each stage we are wiser from the experience. As we look at the challenges in front of us with the wisdom😁 that we have gained, what should we do/recommend?
1). Track improvements. It took a death at summit Point for them to clean up their act, even though everyone of us knew how desperately those changes were needed.
2). Car improvements. An obvious one is seat belts. We replace our harnesses every five years. And factory belts?? Duh!
3). Instructing. With camera and track recorders, should we instructors be riding around with newbees at 130MPH w/o 5/6 point harnesses and Hans devices? What are we " teaching" at these speeds? (I would keep my mouth shut)
4). Rules Just because a car goes 150+MPH does NOT mean we need to allow the driver to go that fast. For all the Physics you have covered, if it is not properly prepared, limit the speed.
We can argue the economics of HPDE, and that we will not fill events. Well, it is better by a long shot to have fewer and safer events than one disaster. There are a few instructors around who were seriously injured in the past. You dont see them. Why? Because they were and still are adversely affected by their injuries. They do not instructany more. And a few drivers as well.

So let's use our combined wistom here. We will not destroy HPDE. We will save it. We need to be reasonable with changes. But we must make them.

I love HPDE. I want others to enjoy and love it as I have and for it to continue for years to come.

This is a great thread! Keep the ideas coming AND then act on the best of them!

Pete (not my good friend Peter) Kauffman

[Trak Ratt]

U 'ol cote!!! It's amassing (or is that amusing?) what brings you out of the (lurking) closet!!

[pkauffman]

Originally Posted by Trak Ratt

U 'ol cote!!! It's amassing (or is that amusing?) what brings you out of the (lurking) closet!!

Still too cold to go out to the pool!

[Potomac-Greg]

Originally Posted by pkauffman

We can argue the economics of HPDE, and that we will not fill events. Well, it is better by a long shot to have fewer and safer events than one disaster.

It's important to remember that 15 years ago, the HPDE options were minimal. Since then the for-profit players jumped in. There's no shame in accepting the added competition and living with fewer events.

My self-serving fix? More people should race. Since I've started racing, I have a decidedly un-HPDE mindset at the track(not a dangerous mindset, just a drive-at-the-limit-or-why-bother? mindset). It's fundamentally incompatible with people who need to drive their car's home after an event.

At BSR training, a well respected instructor suggested that SOME track days should be street-tire only.