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  #11  
Old 01-17-2018, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Trak Ratt View Post
As before, my only issue with this is dog for bid something happens to the person forced to not use all their available safety equipment because of this rule. And its found that equipment may have kept them from getting hurt!
^^This

I'm not sure that the "equal restraint" rule means what they think it means. This is not an issue in my car as I do not have factory belts but if I did and I got hurt in an incident because PCA mandated that I couldn't use my full compliment of safety equipment then PCA is going to have a big big problem. Who ever heard of a car club mandating that a driver enter a hot race track in a less safe condition than is available to him or her? Equal restraints must be available is the way I read the rule. It's not necessary that both occupants use them. Particularly if their personal equipment is incompatible.

Assuming the car in question has harnesses and factory belts, if the student doesn't have a Hans then he/she should NOT wear the harness but if the instructor does have a Hans why on Earth would the club mandate that he/she not be allowed to wear it?

Again, not relevant to my car but I just don't see the "wisdom" of this at all. Got harnesses? Check. Got Hans? Check. PCA says you can't wear them. Huh?
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  #12  
Old 01-17-2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Chopper Dropper View Post
Hi DE folks, a heads up as to new regs coming down, we are just the messengers, Insurance, liability and courts make the rules (maybe lawyers too)

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY: a HANS (or comparable) device is required when using a harness

EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2018 (in anticipation of the forthcoming mandate from PCA National): occupants in vehicles equipped with only a "harness bar" will no longer be allowed to use harnesses; a roll bar must be added. For convertibles / cabriolets, a harness bar + factory pop-up roll bars or fixed hoops is acceptable providing the harness bar installation does not interfere with operation of the pop-up roll bar or fixed hoops. (And these cases must also comply with the "2 inch rule". See here: https://pcapotomac.org/activities/dr...let-or-boxster)
Also keep in mind that our long-standing rule of "equal restraints" for both driver and passenger remains in effect alongside the new rules above. For example, if either occupant does not have or is not using HANS (in a car with harnesses and roll bar), then neither occupant may use HANS or harnesses, and instead, both must use OEM seat belts
I assume this rule comes about after someone was able to show that a helmet wearing driver in a 3 point belted car is safer than a helmet+ Hans wearing driver in a 5 point car equipped car? The chance of a impact that results in the roof being substantially crushed is stunningly low. The chance of being in an impact that a 5 point and Hans would outperform a 3 point is about once per 250 drivers per DE a weekend. Has new data come out? Is this just a reaction to a chilling sounding but unlikely event?

How do you plan on covering the outcome of car occupants being denied the use of the best protection they own and have in hand? Forcing someone to leave a safety device in the paddock and downgrade their retention system is simply nuts.

Seems you are all simply dancing around simply making Hans mandatory in 5/6 point cars.
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Last edited by Vicegrip; 01-17-2018 at 08:34 AM.
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  #13  
Old 01-17-2018, 08:57 AM
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Seriously??? I read this as, 'my passenger doesn't have optimal safety gear, so I need to back it down a bit.' I thought the goal of bringing a student out was to show them something they had a hard time grasping when you tried to explain it.

It seems that if you are teaching the student advanced enough techniques to warrant optimum safety gear then the student needs to step up and purchase said optimum safety gear. Otherwise it seems that this is mostly geared towards Green and Blue students where the 3-point systen they currently use is good enough.

Unless of course you want to kill the entire HPDE program and require EVERYONE to have race quality safety gear (i.e. 6 point cage, restraints, HANS, etc.).
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  #14  
Old 01-17-2018, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverStreak View Post
Got harnesses? Check. Got Hans? Check. PCA says you can't wear them. Huh?
^^^ sigh. If you don't have the ability to offer equal restraint, and YOU (emphasis on personal choice here) do not want to drive without your hans and harness, then do not choose (your choice) to go out. Period. Lots of other choices. Watch video together. Take student's car out. Go to a corner and watch. Pick a car to follow that can demonstrate what you wanted to demonstrate.
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  #15  
Old 01-17-2018, 09:19 AM
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^^ Yes Pat and Jay, If you as an Instructor take a passenger (either another Instructor or Student out) and even if the equipment is available but to driver but not student, driver does not wear it but hot damn he should be adjusting his driving to a relevant speed. Primarily this will be coaching a student on some finer points and at a suitable speed for that student. If it is an Instructor on a voluntary ride along with another Instructor get another Instructor who has the equipment. People, please try and use a bit of common sense, we have been talking about the HANS requirement for several years as well as mandating equal restraints and this has been addressed in many classroom sessions with students. If you are assigned a student who happens to have harnesses, roll bar and you as an Instructor don't have a HANS, tell CIS and will be reassigned just as if one can not for some reason fit in the students car.
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  #16  
Old 01-17-2018, 09:20 AM
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I believe that the issue is not to HANS or not, it is actually to HANS properly or not. HANS meaning the complete system, HANS, 5/6 belts, bar/cage. I believe it is safer to be in a car with 3 points and no HANS then a car with harnesses and no HANS as the 3 point with inertia reels are designed with some give while if you use 5/6 points without HANS......snap goes the neck. Ask Mr. Earnhardt, Sr.
I believe we will all agree that the optimum is HANS, 5/6 points and cage.
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  #17  
Old 01-17-2018, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicegrip View Post
Seems you are all simply dancing around simply making Hans mandatory in 5/6 point cars.
How is it dancing around -- this IS one of the two new requirements. So if one of the two does not have a HANs, the the driver needs to back down, and they wear factory belts.
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  #18  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackTalon View Post
How is it dancing around -- this IS one of the two new requirements. So if one of the two does not have a HANs, the the driver needs to back down, and they wear factory belts.
The dance is you can downgrade the system used.

Driver needs to backdown is great advice. Now apply that to real world.

So many “Ifs”. If you have... if they have”. I see the need to balance gear to part time DE cars. This needs to be gone based on real world not gut.
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  #19  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:08 AM
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Seems like a quick path to two lawsuits in the event driver and passenger are in a serious wreck (eg. the spectacular crash of the student driver and Mike Levitas at T4 could have had a far worse outcome) and have been forced to downgrade their safety. I've been out of the instructor loop for many years, so I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum but surprised PCA/PCAP has this legal vulnerability.
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  #20  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:24 AM
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I am 100% supportive of the message, "You are in charge of your safety and the safety of the equipment you bring to the track including its appropriate use. <insert helment rule>. You must use the OE equipment provided with the car or upgrade to a full safety solution (i.e., Roll Bar, HANS, Harness) similar to that approved by recognized automobile racing bodies. <insert special convertible rule>. If you don't have OE equipment installed then you MUST have a full safety solution. If you use your full safety solution then so must everyone else in the car." all of which I think is the spirit and letter.

I diverge with implementing that by stating the "opposite state" as a work-around for edge cases. I don't think it is necessary to say "You can't wear your full safety solution and we will enforce that you don't." That's silly. The real answer on the grid is, "Sorry, rider has to get out of the car for safety reasons." The driver can chose to downgrade if he wants - that's ALWAYS his available choice as long as he has OE.

I may disagree with the requirement that a rider can't keep his HANS on in the right seat from a practical matter but I don't have enough data about whether wearing a HANS with OE belts is a safety hazard or not. By piecemealing (i.e., dancing around) the HANS+HARNESS+ROLLBAR as a system unit you wind up with more weird edge cases like this than are necessary by simplifying the rule.

Added Note: Change above to refer to the passenger restraint safety subsystem to avoid excluding all other safety subsystems as described by Vicegrip with whom I agree in all things.
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