Track Talk A place to talk about Track and DE Events, share driving tips and other Track related items. |
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#11
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I'm not sure that the "equal restraint" rule means what they think it means. This is not an issue in my car as I do not have factory belts but if I did and I got hurt in an incident because PCA mandated that I couldn't use my full compliment of safety equipment then PCA is going to have a big big problem. Who ever heard of a car club mandating that a driver enter a hot race track in a less safe condition than is available to him or her? Equal restraints must be available is the way I read the rule. It's not necessary that both occupants use them. Particularly if their personal equipment is incompatible. Assuming the car in question has harnesses and factory belts, if the student doesn't have a Hans then he/she should NOT wear the harness but if the instructor does have a Hans why on Earth would the club mandate that he/she not be allowed to wear it? Again, not relevant to my car but I just don't see the "wisdom" of this at all. Got harnesses? Check. Got Hans? Check. PCA says you can't wear them. Huh?
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Hunt 611racing.com OG Racing Team Vimeo https://www.youtube.com/user/Streak986 1999 SPB #611 2004 Wrangler “That’s how people like you work. Your ego is so out of whack that it will do what ever it can to protect itself. And people with a messed up ego can do these mental gymnastics to convince themselves they’re awesome when really they are just douche bags” - Kyle, South Park "If you need to focus maybe you should buy the book and take it home" - MLIN |
#12
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How do you plan on covering the outcome of car occupants being denied the use of the best protection they own and have in hand? Forcing someone to leave a safety device in the paddock and downgrade their retention system is simply nuts. Seems you are all simply dancing around simply making Hans mandatory in 5/6 point cars.
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http://vimeo.com/29896988 “Those that can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire. "There is grandeur in this view of life...." Darwin. The mountains are calling and I must go. “The earth has music for those who listen” Shakespeare. You Matter. (Until you multiply yourself times the speed of light squared. Then you Energy) “We’ve got lots of theories, we just don’t have the evidence’. Last edited by Vicegrip; 01-17-2018 at 08:34 AM. |
#13
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Seriously??? I read this as, 'my passenger doesn't have optimal safety gear, so I need to back it down a bit.' I thought the goal of bringing a student out was to show them something they had a hard time grasping when you tried to explain it.
It seems that if you are teaching the student advanced enough techniques to warrant optimum safety gear then the student needs to step up and purchase said optimum safety gear. Otherwise it seems that this is mostly geared towards Green and Blue students where the 3-point systen they currently use is good enough. Unless of course you want to kill the entire HPDE program and require EVERYONE to have race quality safety gear (i.e. 6 point cage, restraints, HANS, etc.).
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Jay 2013 C2S Racecars are like strippers, we just keep throwing money at them hoping someday they give us the ride of our lives… |
#14
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^^^ sigh. If you don't have the ability to offer equal restraint, and YOU (emphasis on personal choice here) do not want to drive without your hans and harness, then do not choose (your choice) to go out. Period. Lots of other choices. Watch video together. Take student's car out. Go to a corner and watch. Pick a car to follow that can demonstrate what you wanted to demonstrate.
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Pat Kaunitz, Summit Point, WV www.rubysummitpoint.com Carmine - 1999 996 Carrera - White Pepe - 2011 Carrera S - Grey No Name - 2016 Ford F150 Lariat - White BikePump - 1964 Stock Husband - Summer Bronzed |
#15
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^^ Yes Pat and Jay, If you as an Instructor take a passenger (either another Instructor or Student out) and even if the equipment is available but to driver but not student, driver does not wear it but hot damn he should be adjusting his driving to a relevant speed. Primarily this will be coaching a student on some finer points and at a suitable speed for that student. If it is an Instructor on a voluntary ride along with another Instructor get another Instructor who has the equipment. People, please try and use a bit of common sense, we have been talking about the HANS requirement for several years as well as mandating equal restraints and this has been addressed in many classroom sessions with students. If you are assigned a student who happens to have harnesses, roll bar and you as an Instructor don't have a HANS, tell CIS and will be reassigned just as if one can not for some reason fit in the students car.
Dirk
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Safety Chair, PCA Potomac Region Retired DE Chair, PCA Potomac Region. Retired Co-Chief Instructor PCA Potomac 2008-2012 1971 914/6 (Factory) 3.2 Track car 1988 911 Targa 1986 944 |
#16
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I believe that the issue is not to HANS or not, it is actually to HANS properly or not. HANS meaning the complete system, HANS, 5/6 belts, bar/cage. I believe it is safer to be in a car with 3 points and no HANS then a car with harnesses and no HANS as the 3 point with inertia reels are designed with some give while if you use 5/6 points without HANS......snap goes the neck. Ask Mr. Earnhardt, Sr.
I believe we will all agree that the optimum is HANS, 5/6 points and cage.
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Ken 2023 Audi Q7 Daily Driver Considering next Porsche 1990 964, Red, Number 692 (Misty) sold 2010 Trailex (Dusty) sold 2003 996, (Speedy) Grey sold Life is short; just drive....... (boat, bike, etc.) |
#17
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How is it dancing around -- this IS one of the two new requirements. So if one of the two does not have a HANs, the the driver needs to back down, and they wear factory belts.
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David D. '87 Targa - 2021 quickly disappearing... |
#18
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Driver needs to backdown is great advice. Now apply that to real world. So many “Ifs”. If you have... if they have”. I see the need to balance gear to part time DE cars. This needs to be gone based on real world not gut.
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http://vimeo.com/29896988 “Those that can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire. "There is grandeur in this view of life...." Darwin. The mountains are calling and I must go. “The earth has music for those who listen” Shakespeare. You Matter. (Until you multiply yourself times the speed of light squared. Then you Energy) “We’ve got lots of theories, we just don’t have the evidence’. |
#19
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Seems like a quick path to two lawsuits in the event driver and passenger are in a serious wreck (eg. the spectacular crash of the student driver and Mike Levitas at T4 could have had a far worse outcome) and have been forced to downgrade their safety. I've been out of the instructor loop for many years, so I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum but surprised PCA/PCAP has this legal vulnerability.
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'96 993 - polar silver '06 Acura TL (manual gearbox winter beater) - white diamond pearl '17 Macan GTS - agate gray (SOLD) Looking for E39 BMW M5 |
#20
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I am 100% supportive of the message, "You are in charge of your safety and the safety of the equipment you bring to the track including its appropriate use. <insert helment rule>. You must use the OE equipment provided with the car or upgrade to a full safety solution (i.e., Roll Bar, HANS, Harness) similar to that approved by recognized automobile racing bodies. <insert special convertible rule>. If you don't have OE equipment installed then you MUST have a full safety solution. If you use your full safety solution then so must everyone else in the car." all of which I think is the spirit and letter.
I diverge with implementing that by stating the "opposite state" as a work-around for edge cases. I don't think it is necessary to say "You can't wear your full safety solution and we will enforce that you don't." That's silly. The real answer on the grid is, "Sorry, rider has to get out of the car for safety reasons." The driver can chose to downgrade if he wants - that's ALWAYS his available choice as long as he has OE. I may disagree with the requirement that a rider can't keep his HANS on in the right seat from a practical matter but I don't have enough data about whether wearing a HANS with OE belts is a safety hazard or not. By piecemealing (i.e., dancing around) the HANS+HARNESS+ROLLBAR as a system unit you wind up with more weird edge cases like this than are necessary by simplifying the rule. Added Note: Change above to refer to the passenger restraint safety subsystem to avoid excluding all other safety subsystems as described by Vicegrip with whom I agree in all things.
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Martin 2011 Cayman S (Gone) - Hardtop Blechster 2006 Cayman S (DD) 2016 Mazda CX-5 (Her DD) 2002 Boxster S (Gone) - Ragtop Blechster - Pura Patina! Dorkiphus: I buy it for the articles Last edited by N0tt0N; 01-17-2018 at 01:03 PM. |
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