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Old 07-21-2020, 11:46 PM
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I've been out of the game for way too long. I also have a few friends in a similar boat, poor with no time and the need for track time. So what better way to convert $$ into pain and frustration than a lemons try.

I've been through a few threads, read rules section 4 a few times and am starting to piece together a plan. Curious if anyone can share experiences and/or advice on lemons. Rules seem pretty clear on $500 but looking at some of the cars I realize this is up for interpretation. Do I need to learn the secret handshake to get the skinny? Sure I can claim my old MG is worth $200 and I bought a new motor for $10 but....

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Old 07-22-2020, 09:49 AM
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I guess I'd call my self somewhat of a LeMons veteran. Built my first car out of a e30 325e in 2007-2008 with a bunch of friends, ran our first race in '08, won a race in '09, and have been a part of a couple of other builds over the years. I think I've run 8 or 9 events over the years, and I'm slated to run with some friends at CMP this fall. My thoughts:

- Because there are so many cars/teams these days, I'd recommend an arrive and drive for at least one event to see if you like it enough to invest the time and money. For most anyone on this board, the answer is probably yes...but I'd still see if I could buy a seat to start with.

- If you do end up building a car, understand that EVERYONE CHEATS. It is essentially impossible for most people to build a functional race car for the budget you are allotted.

- Most new cars when they arrive in the series are penalized for their first event or two as the LeMons folk decide whether or not the car is "too good." They might tell you to dumb-the car down a bit, or make it a little less "cheaty." This is what I call the "honor among thieves" process. It becomes clear what you can get away with and what you can't.

- Notice I said functional, not fast in an earlier bullet. I have seen teams start out and truly build a $500 car that was functional, extremely well documented, and reliable. Not once have I seen one of these cars be fast.

- Don't be a douche. Seems obvious, but LeMons itself is very silly, and those that take themselves too seriously and generally act douchey and self-entitled will not mesh well with the sanctioning body, the other teams, etc. If you're "serious", there are other endurance series that are a much better fit.

- Be creative. With safety as priority 1, creativity is priority 2. A good theme for the car, good costumes, swag, and a clear statement that you don't take yourself too seriously goes a LONG way.

- If the LeMons atmosphere isn't for you, there is Champcar, World Racing League, American Endurance Racing, and other sanctioning bodies. The ruleset is different in each of them, some don't have the budgetary limitations, but the common theme between all of them is the ability to pay ~$50 for a license and go endurance racing with your friends.
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Old 07-22-2020, 11:30 AM
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I would wager a guess that perhaps Lemons is not really any cheaper to run than other base classes (E30, 944cup) assuming you don't mind where you run in the pack. It does lend itself to certainly a fun time though (and no, I have no actual Lemons experience. I do have experience though with taking larger piles of money and making them smaller by having a car based hobby )
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Old 07-22-2020, 12:03 PM
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What are your expectations for running in Lemons? Do you want to win, be competitive, or just have fun and wear a costume?*IMO Lemons program isn't real endurance racing in my book, crappy junk cars doing W2W. Further, most cars and drivers are terrible from what I've seen, the serious folks have moved to AER, WRL, and Champ.*I haven't done a Lemons race in nearly 11 years but maybe things have changed. I found the whole experience scary, being out with green/rookies doing wheel-to-wheel isn't fun and nearly 50% of the field have mechanicals and you're under full-course caution more than 40% of the time.*All that said, I'm a type-A person. I'm at race weekends to win and I'll settle with a lower podium spot. I'm not there to burn wads of cash to have "fun" that's just me.*

I think renting a seat in all three sanctioning bodies would be good.

Kind of a funny picture, but I dont' want to be on track with a VW bus
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Old 07-22-2020, 01:42 PM
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As someone who actually has been on track with that bus (Thunderhill, 2016) it was surprisingly competent, and driven by folks who understood it's high center of gravity. There were 2 busses out there, both run by a team that owned a bus-centric shop north of San Francisco. 95% of the remaining Microbusses and Eurovans are in the CA Bay area. I saw them daily when I was there.

Yes, the talent level is all over the place in LeMons, and the car prep level varies wildly. The inevitable occurrence is that the crappy cars die quickly and the well prepped/well-driven cars separate themselves.

As for budget, it's true that a well-bult/well-planned LeMons effort isn't much less expensive than the lower-level club-racing effort. The barrier to entry with club racing is the licensing, and then factor in the general lack of endurance events. The end result is the same amount of $ spent, but with it spread across the team.

As for the "LeMons isn't real endurance racing" thought, I've never done an enduro with NASA, SCCA, PCA, BMWCCA, etc., so I can't compare directly. The early LeMons events at CMP were caution-fests, but that has improved greatly over the years. They generally do local yellows now unless there is a big issue. It's a lot like NASA with hot-pulls now.
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Old 07-22-2020, 05:48 PM
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agree with Paddy. LEMONS is a series for those who like to party near a race track. it is not for anyone who really wants to race. i did one....never again. not my thing. clueless drivers, too much BS, not enough focus on racing.

not saying LEMONS is bad...it has its followers and folks seem to enjoy themselves. if you just like to party while sucking exhaust fumes it is the place to be.
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Old 07-22-2020, 10:30 PM
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Great info, thank you. A few of my initial concerns already came up, shows I'm not too far offbase. I havent done a DE in way too long and really miss it. Lemons seems like a way to have a fun project with some old friends and also get some track time. But, it scares me a bit. Not just that I'm really rough but I would be driving a POS, on track with a bunch of POS's driving by who knows who. Shiny side up I guess.

My goal? Get on track and have a good time with some friends. Building something is half the fun for me, not being DFL is nice too. One area I'm struggling is with the rules, I'm generally a rules follower. My buddy? Uh... For example

Quote:
4.2.1: Beside the items and processes listed in Section 3, the following are considered safety-related and therefore exempt:
Wheels, tires, wheel bearings, balljoints, and brake components
does that mean a set of stock pads and a caliper rebuild kit are ok? Or does it mean that monster brake kit is 'free'? I get the spirit of the $500, I think!, but I wonder where it really ends. I have a set of old wheels laying around, do they count at market value? Or shut up and have fun, just dont show up with shiny fikse's and you'll be fine?

Quote:
i did one....never again. not my thing. clueless drivers, too much BS
thats exactly what I'm afraid of
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Old 07-23-2020, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmartin View Post
Great info, thank you. A few of my initial concerns already came up, shows I'm not too far offbase. I havent done a DE in way too long and really miss it. Lemons seems like a way to have a fun project with some old friends and also get some track time. But, it scares me a bit. Not just that I'm really rough but I would be driving a POS, on track with a bunch of POS's driving by who knows who. Shiny side up I guess.

My goal? Get on track and have a good time with some friends. Building something is half the fun for me, not being DFL is nice too. One area I'm struggling is with the rules, I'm generally a rules follower. My buddy? Uh... For example



does that mean a set of stock pads and a caliper rebuild kit are ok? Or does it mean that monster brake kit is 'free'? I get the spirit of the $500, I think!, but I wonder where it really ends. I have a set of old wheels laying around, do they count at market value? Or shut up and have fun, just dont show up with shiny fikse's and you'll be fine?



thats exactly what I'm afraid of
Nutshell of the rules, you can spend whatever you want on "safety" - no real budgetary restrictions. Wheels, no restrictions. Brakes - yes, your big brake kit is allowed. 6 nozzle fire suppression system? Allowed. $2K carbon fiber halo seat? Allowed. 8 point cage? Allowed.

The rules call out what your "$500" applies to, but nutshell again...it's stuff that makes you go faster.

Now...here's where the "honor among thieves" thing shows up again. If you show up with a pristine car on $2K a set wheels, monster Brembo brake kit, etc...you're going to be HIGHLY scrutinized because you've missed the spirit of LeMons. The other series options are probably more your game.

If you show up with a ratty-looking 944 on cookie cutters, people will hardly bat an eye. I've seen numerous well built-but-scruffy looking 944s over the years that were rock-solid reliable and top-10 capable cars.

Let me clarify...you can prepare a car very well for a low budget. I've been running as a guest driver with some friends in NC for years who field a DA-generation Acura Integra, maintain it impeccably for cheap, and contend for a top 5 position every race with good driving, fuel management, and pit stops. The car has 30+ races on it, very few DNFs, and numerous top 5s. It was built for about $8K initially, and they've probably spent that much to maintain it over the 7 or 8 years it's been a race car. They very much enjoy the LeMons scene and some of the tom-foolery that comes along with it. They're prepped to run top 10 every race, but fun and fellowship with friends is also very high on the priority list for them.

Sorry to sound like such an apologist, but I've run with LeMons on the east and west coast, I've run with Chumpcar (now Champcar) in their early days, and I've seen a lot of people have a great time. I've also seen a lot of people walk away with a "This is BS" response because it just wasn't what they wanted or expected. If I can save you from wasting time and money on a "This is BS" experience, that's my goal.
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Sorry to sound like such an apologist,
That makes me LOL , perfect timing really. No need to apologize, for apologizing?

This is one of those things I've been interested in for a while and very much appreciate local, firsthand info to fill the gaps. My buddies are full speed into this and I'm trying to inject a little reason (if I'm the reason guy we are fuched!). To the point, LS swap is already spec'd, vette brakes..... I love the idea of bigger faster stronger but also want to have a reasonably complying car. I keep going back to $500 and laugh, I think thats the point. I hope so!
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:38 AM
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Our team is switching cars to participate more in AER (though pandemic this year has put a major kink in our plans). But I have a Mazda RX7 that we ran for years, and actually did quite well in Lemons. Tons of fun to drive; very good handling and not too much power, which makes it perfect for Lemons. Unfortunately, AER has grown and become very competitive, and we are one of the slowest cars on track now.

Our RX7 is built to the rules, fun to drive and we have LOTS of spare parts and consumables. If you're interested in purchasing an almost turnkey car (motor finally let go after 5 years of racing), although we have several spare motors.
I'd also be happy to talk to you more about Lemons costs and strategies.

PM me if you'd like to discuss further.
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