PCA Potomac: 2018 rules updates for Hans, Harnesses and Roll Bars. - Page 5 - Dorkiphus.net
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  #41  
Old 01-19-2018, 07:00 AM
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In the picture above I cannot see a sub belt. Maybe it's there maybe it's not. But how would that person have faired with just the 3 point belt? Can't imagine they would have been better off.
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  #42  
Old 01-19-2018, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Chopper Dropper View Post
My understanding from Mark is that OG has anchors available, and I am sure as they supply the store at Summit they will have a stock, will ask Mark to make sure this is correct.
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FYI, Mach V runs the summit store now, not OG.
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  #43  
Old 01-19-2018, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ItalyChicken View Post


Submarine central.

There was an excellent discussion on NASIOC from a long time ago specifically discussing harness bars and how susceptible they are to failure and passenger submarining. I had originally printed it to PDF but have since lost it.

Moral of the story for me for racing events: Unless its a proper roll-cage with properly configured harnesses which are angled correctly, I will either use the OEM seat-belts or I will not be riding. Im not risking being paralyzed or killed from an improperly installed harness or an inadequate harness bar failure. On the street-you wont catch me dead in a full harness.

In regards to HANS required for harness...how did Dale Sr die? If your torso is restrained by the harness, and your head which weighs like 15lbs (not a physicist but try the math at 50mph what 15lbs becomes), when you get into a head on collision, your body will tend to move forward. When your torso cannot move forward because it is restrained by the harness it will stop. Your head will not be restrained, so it will keep moving. Your skull is now disconnected from your spine. You are now dead or seriously injured/paralyzed. With regular seatbelts, your entire body has more room to move forward with your skull and to be absorbed by the seatbelt, so the risk or spinal detachment is less.

You shouldnt be picking and choosing safety equipment. If you have a cage, then you need a helmet and probably also a harness. If you have a harness you need a HANS device.
There is much to unpack and shed light on here. One thing I will agree with you is I too will not ride or drive in less than a full system. That said many here do not have that option in DE. I used to happily hop into all kinds of cars with all kinds of systems. Now one thing I do rule out 100% is drop top cars.

Your above example is a install or design failure. A system failure via poor design or ham fisted install is not condemnation of the method. That is condemnation of poor design and or poor install and inspection. I have seen pictures of roll bar installs that failed too. Does this mean we only go full street or full race in DE? Remember, we are discussing rules for DE cars here. Roll bars and cages fail too. The image of the Mustang is one that is notable for a few reasons. Mustangs are known to be heavy cars with minimal strength roofs. The roll bar punched through the floor and the roof collapsed to the door line. The occupants were in race seats and “held fully upright” as many often say to denigrate a non or partial cage system. The occupants walked away from this event.
What does submarining have to do with the harness bar? Submarining can happen when your pelvis is not properly restrained and the mass of your legs pulls your lower torso under the lap belt. This is bad as now the belt is off the pelvis horns and compressing the soft shit filled bits we hide behind our belly buttons. Submarining reduction is a function of proper lap belt location and retention. A 3 point system is poor at this.
Dale Sr suffered an offset impact into a solid wall in a car that had no designed crumple zones, while traveling at 175 mph. The actual speed delta is less than that but the energy involved is large and unclean. Add to this that he was also known to run with his belts loose and his lap belt was installed in an odd way and failed. The investigators determined that the BSF injury was sustained when Dale Sr's chin hit the wheel. This is not the scenario you describe above. He likely died due to his torso not being properly held in place. A 3 point system would have likely not saved him ether. A good 6 point and Hans, well thought out and installed being properly used would have had the best chance.

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  #44  
Old 01-19-2018, 08:24 AM
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I see in the PCA rules that 4 point belts (like the Schroth Quickfit Pro), are allowed, as long as they are model specific. They specifically address the submarining issue with video evidence to show what happens. They are DOT approved for street use and use the existing 3pt attachment points. I ordered them for my M3, as the pro allows you to use a hans device. It's a great alternative, for those of use who want additional safety, allow hans use and don't require dismantling the interior of the car. Install is simple. They are made for newer Porsche's as
well. I hadn't seen anyone at the events with one, but with all the modern safety features cars have and are tested for, it seems like a no brainer upgrade for around $300 per side.
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  #45  
Old 01-19-2018, 04:20 PM
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I wont even go into the loss of common sense throughout all of America where we used to say, quite rationally, SKATE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

I will however say that if Potomac's stance is going to be that DE is now equivalent to racing, and requires equivalent equipment, someone has seriously lost their minds if they think this is not a disservice to the club or the region. Yes, bad things can happen on the track. But forcing drivers and instructors to NOT use their perfectly well designed harness bars and five or six point harnesses if they do not have a CAGE is insanity itself. The safety Czar needs a serious intervention here. Yes, we all want to be safe, but thinking that going back to a seat belt is going to be better for me as a driver than my current bar and harness is to mock all common sense. To require people to invest an extra $1500 to $2500 in a roll cage on their DAILY DRIVER is equally insane. Most folks doing DE are not, and are never going to be RACERS. But they do get sick and tired of struggling to stay in the seat, so they eventually add a bar and a harness. It helps and it works.

So to recap here: IT's DE FOR GODS SAKE. Not RACING. We come to DE to have fun and to improve. We understand there are risks and we willingly take them. But if we want to improve we cannot be sliding all over the cockpit, so many of us bought harness bars of good quality and five or six point harnesses. And now you want to take this away? You want to force us by rule to go back to a LESS Safe system?

The push back on this needs to be massive and immediate. It is NOT a National PCA mandate. I asked. This is strictly a Potomac thing. Potomac. The same guys who told me I NEED A HANS, and then, after I bought it said, "oh, well, no, you should not use your HANS unless you install a cage"...even though the safety chair at that time KNEW none of us a cage when he told us all we needed HANS. WTF OVER?

So, if you are an instructor, you need to pipe up against this rule and push back until common sense reigns. Safety is fine. But telling us we have to go back to seat belts instead of using the safety equipment we already invested in, especially on their prior advice? So now they are telling us that we have to turn our daily driver into a full on track only car if we want to continue to use a harness? NO. Absolutely NOT. Many of us, both instructors and drivers, are going to take our money to other regions or other clubs. Period. Rethink this my friend, who ever you are who pushed for this rule. Its not just Porsche drivers/instructors that are looking closely at this and threatening to walk away. I am hearing Vette guys, Beemers and other regulars of Potomac events all saying the same thing in private conversations. Screw Potomac if this stands. I do NOT want to see that happen. I like the region a LOT. But if the rule stands for DE, they risk this losing a lot of us to other regions and clubs. Maybe they could care less. DC has a lot of money. but many of us are not wealthy. We may own a Porsche, but throwing $2000 at a roll cage is not an option, nor is removing safety devices to go back to seat belts alone.
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  #46  
Old 01-19-2018, 04:27 PM
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What is this CAGE of which you speak?
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  #47  
Old 01-19-2018, 05:55 PM
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meh.. throw out the Porsche's and go get on a Motorcycle.. no belts needed at all!

Certainly sounds insurance driven.. and no one beats the insurance co if you want to keep playing. We all have choices.. just make the ones you feel good about.
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  #48  
Old 01-19-2018, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scpx View Post
I wont even go into the loss of common sense throughout all of America where we used to say, quite rationally, SKATE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

I will however say that if Potomac's stance is going to be that DE is now equivalent to racing, and requires equivalent equipment, someone has seriously lost their minds if they think this is not a disservice to the club or the region. Yes, bad things can happen on the track. But forcing drivers and instructors to NOT use their perfectly well designed harness bars and five or six point harnesses if they do not have a CAGE is insanity itself. The safety Czar needs a serious intervention here. Yes, we all want to be safe, but thinking that going back to a seat belt is going to be better for me as a driver than my current bar and harness is to mock all common sense. To require people to invest an extra $1500 to $2500 in a roll cage on their DAILY DRIVER is equally insane. Most folks doing DE are not, and are never going to be RACERS. But they do get sick and tired of struggling to stay in the seat, so they eventually add a bar and a harness. It helps and it works.

So to recap here: IT's DE FOR GODS SAKE. Not RACING. We come to DE to have fun and to improve. We understand there are risks and we willingly take them. But if we want to improve we cannot be sliding all over the cockpit, so many of us bought harness bars of good quality and five or six point harnesses. And now you want to take this away? You want to force us by rule to go back to a LESS Safe system?

The push back on this needs to be massive and immediate. It is NOT a National PCA mandate. I asked. This is strictly a Potomac thing. Potomac. The same guys who told me I NEED A HANS, and then, after I bought it said, "oh, well, no, you should not use your HANS unless you install a cage"...even though the safety chair at that time KNEW none of us a cage when he told us all we needed HANS. WTF OVER?

So, if you are an instructor, you need to pipe up against this rule and push back until common sense reigns. Safety is fine. But telling us we have to go back to seat belts instead of using the safety equipment we already invested in, especially on their prior advice? So now they are telling us that we have to turn our daily driver into a full on track only car if we want to continue to use a harness? NO. Absolutely NOT. Many of us, both instructors and drivers, are going to take our money to other regions or other clubs. Period. Rethink this my friend, who ever you are who pushed for this rule. Its not just Porsche drivers/instructors that are looking closely at this and threatening to walk away. I am hearing Vette guys, Beemers and other regulars of Potomac events all saying the same thing in private conversations. Screw Potomac if this stands. I do NOT want to see that happen. I like the region a LOT. But if the rule stands for DE, they risk this losing a lot of us to other regions and clubs. Maybe they could care less. DC has a lot of money. but many of us are not wealthy. We may own a Porsche, but throwing $2000 at a roll cage is not an option, nor is removing safety devices to go back to seat belts alone.
Scot, I am happy to talk to you off line, you are making a lot more out of this than is actually written in the original note. Tell me that you are not driving at the same speeds you would be in race? Yes racing is wheel to wheel and unfortunate chances are possibly greater of a mishap, but speeds are similar. You seem to be making a personal issue of this, I don't know why? Understand fully there is disagreement as there always is on any idea that may affect. You have already spent how many $$$$ on seats and harness and are bitching about going the extra step for a complete system, or at least something that could be closer. We are not talking full cage, a fairly simple roll bar as a reasonable step.
I suggest also that you look at the Minimum standards for DE which refer many times to Club Race rules Helmets, harnesses, seats just an example that are required.
Dirk
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  #49  
Old 01-19-2018, 10:21 PM
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Dirk, I disagree. The increased risk of accidents in races has much less to do with speed than with car-to-car contact which occurs during passing (or attempted passing) and also with race starts such as when a car misses a shift and other cars are very close behind. Yes, there are risks with DEs but all of the tracks we drive at are adding safety features, and the risks are far lower. This rule is more than is needed, and it isn't just the money but also the modification of a dual-use car that significantly impacts its non-track functionality.
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  #50  
Old 01-20-2018, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scpx View Post
Its not just Porsche drivers/instructors that are looking closely at this and threatening to walk away. I am hearing Vette guys, Beemers and other regulars of Potomac events all saying the same thing in private conversations. Screw Potomac if this stands.
OKBYE!!

Potomac events sell out quick not in spite of the clubs leadership on safety issues but because of it.... after watching close friends experience horrific wrecks...I’m 100% for the rule change. HANS if harnesses, no “harness bar” half steps, and always equal restraints.

I don’t DE much anymore, but when I do, I choose PCAP.
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