Track Talk A place to talk about Track and DE Events, share driving tips and other Track related items. |
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#41
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In the picture above I cannot see a sub belt. Maybe it's there maybe it's not. But how would that person have faired with just the 3 point belt? Can't imagine they would have been better off.
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Hunt 611racing.com OG Racing Team Vimeo https://www.youtube.com/user/Streak986 1999 SPB #611 2004 Wrangler “That’s how people like you work. Your ego is so out of whack that it will do what ever it can to protect itself. And people with a messed up ego can do these mental gymnastics to convince themselves they’re awesome when really they are just douche bags” - Kyle, South Park "If you need to focus maybe you should buy the book and take it home" - MLIN |
#42
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FYI, Mach V runs the summit store now, not OG.
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Racing with NASA in GTS2 '99 M3 SCCA PDX (HPDE) Instructor Emergency Services worker |
#43
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Your above example is a install or design failure. A system failure via poor design or ham fisted install is not condemnation of the method. That is condemnation of poor design and or poor install and inspection. I have seen pictures of roll bar installs that failed too. Does this mean we only go full street or full race in DE? Remember, we are discussing rules for DE cars here. Roll bars and cages fail too. The image of the Mustang is one that is notable for a few reasons. Mustangs are known to be heavy cars with minimal strength roofs. The roll bar punched through the floor and the roof collapsed to the door line. The occupants were in race seats and “held fully upright” as many often say to denigrate a non or partial cage system. The occupants walked away from this event. What does submarining have to do with the harness bar? Submarining can happen when your pelvis is not properly restrained and the mass of your legs pulls your lower torso under the lap belt. This is bad as now the belt is off the pelvis horns and compressing the soft shit filled bits we hide behind our belly buttons. Submarining reduction is a function of proper lap belt location and retention. A 3 point system is poor at this. Dale Sr suffered an offset impact into a solid wall in a car that had no designed crumple zones, while traveling at 175 mph. The actual speed delta is less than that but the energy involved is large and unclean. Add to this that he was also known to run with his belts loose and his lap belt was installed in an odd way and failed. The investigators determined that the BSF injury was sustained when Dale Sr's chin hit the wheel. This is not the scenario you describe above. He likely died due to his torso not being properly held in place. A 3 point system would have likely not saved him ether. A good 6 point and Hans, well thought out and installed being properly used would have had the best chance. Don’t forgo an improvement in protection to a likely event over fear of an unlikely event.
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http://vimeo.com/29896988 “Those that can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire. "There is grandeur in this view of life...." Darwin. The mountains are calling and I must go. “The earth has music for those who listen” Shakespeare. You Matter. (Until you multiply yourself times the speed of light squared. Then you Energy) “We’ve got lots of theories, we just don’t have the evidence’. |
#44
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I see in the PCA rules that 4 point belts (like the Schroth Quickfit Pro), are allowed, as long as they are model specific. They specifically address the submarining issue with video evidence to show what happens. They are DOT approved for street use and use the existing 3pt attachment points. I ordered them for my M3, as the pro allows you to use a hans device. It's a great alternative, for those of use who want additional safety, allow hans use and don't require dismantling the interior of the car. Install is simple. They are made for newer Porsche's as
well. I hadn't seen anyone at the events with one, but with all the modern safety features cars have and are tested for, it seems like a no brainer upgrade for around $300 per side.
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-Mark- 99’ Carrera 15’ Cayenne Diesel 05' Cayenne S 86' 928s 14' Cayenne Diesel (gone) 13' E92 M3 Silverstone II (competition pkg.)(gone) 07'-17' Child's tuition 09' Jaguar XKR Portfolio(gone) 93' RSA Guards Red (gone) 85' Black Targa (gone) 06' M5 Indilagos Blue (gone) 01' 996 Ducati (1st porsche down payment) |
#45
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I wont even go into the loss of common sense throughout all of America where we used to say, quite rationally, SKATE AT YOUR OWN RISK.
I will however say that if Potomac's stance is going to be that DE is now equivalent to racing, and requires equivalent equipment, someone has seriously lost their minds if they think this is not a disservice to the club or the region. Yes, bad things can happen on the track. But forcing drivers and instructors to NOT use their perfectly well designed harness bars and five or six point harnesses if they do not have a CAGE is insanity itself. The safety Czar needs a serious intervention here. Yes, we all want to be safe, but thinking that going back to a seat belt is going to be better for me as a driver than my current bar and harness is to mock all common sense. To require people to invest an extra $1500 to $2500 in a roll cage on their DAILY DRIVER is equally insane. Most folks doing DE are not, and are never going to be RACERS. But they do get sick and tired of struggling to stay in the seat, so they eventually add a bar and a harness. It helps and it works. So to recap here: IT's DE FOR GODS SAKE. Not RACING. We come to DE to have fun and to improve. We understand there are risks and we willingly take them. But if we want to improve we cannot be sliding all over the cockpit, so many of us bought harness bars of good quality and five or six point harnesses. And now you want to take this away? You want to force us by rule to go back to a LESS Safe system? The push back on this needs to be massive and immediate. It is NOT a National PCA mandate. I asked. This is strictly a Potomac thing. Potomac. The same guys who told me I NEED A HANS, and then, after I bought it said, "oh, well, no, you should not use your HANS unless you install a cage"...even though the safety chair at that time KNEW none of us a cage when he told us all we needed HANS. WTF OVER? So, if you are an instructor, you need to pipe up against this rule and push back until common sense reigns. Safety is fine. But telling us we have to go back to seat belts instead of using the safety equipment we already invested in, especially on their prior advice? So now they are telling us that we have to turn our daily driver into a full on track only car if we want to continue to use a harness? NO. Absolutely NOT. Many of us, both instructors and drivers, are going to take our money to other regions or other clubs. Period. Rethink this my friend, who ever you are who pushed for this rule. Its not just Porsche drivers/instructors that are looking closely at this and threatening to walk away. I am hearing Vette guys, Beemers and other regulars of Potomac events all saying the same thing in private conversations. Screw Potomac if this stands. I do NOT want to see that happen. I like the region a LOT. But if the rule stands for DE, they risk this losing a lot of us to other regions and clubs. Maybe they could care less. DC has a lot of money. but many of us are not wealthy. We may own a Porsche, but throwing $2000 at a roll cage is not an option, nor is removing safety devices to go back to seat belts alone.
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Scott Powers Proprietor, Sniper Country PX www.snipercountrypx.com 2009 Cayman S 1942 WILLYS MB 1948 WILLYS CJ2A 1962 WILLYS CJ5 (seeing a trend there?) Vans RV-8. |
#46
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What is this CAGE of which you speak?
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David D. '87 Targa - 2021 quickly disappearing... |
#47
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meh.. throw out the Porsche's and go get on a Motorcycle.. no belts needed at all!
Certainly sounds insurance driven.. and no one beats the insurance co if you want to keep playing. We all have choices.. just make the ones you feel good about.
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Dave - 1970 914-6 Past - 2000 Boxster - 1987 944 - 1987 924S - 1978 911 Euro SC - 1976 914 2.0 - 1970 914 1.7 / 2056cc |
#48
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I suggest also that you look at the Minimum standards for DE which refer many times to Club Race rules Helmets, harnesses, seats just an example that are required. Dirk
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Safety Chair, PCA Potomac Region Retired DE Chair, PCA Potomac Region. Retired Co-Chief Instructor PCA Potomac 2008-2012 1971 914/6 (Factory) 3.2 Track car 1988 911 Targa 1986 944 |
#49
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Dirk, I disagree. The increased risk of accidents in races has much less to do with speed than with car-to-car contact which occurs during passing (or attempted passing) and also with race starts such as when a car misses a shift and other cars are very close behind. Yes, there are risks with DEs but all of the tracks we drive at are adding safety features, and the risks are far lower. This rule is more than is needed, and it isn't just the money but also the modification of a dual-use car that significantly impacts its non-track functionality.
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Peter (not "Pete") K. 2016 Cayman S 1999 Miata ("SM") race car 2016 Toyota Highlander--tow vehicle/wife's DD 2017 VW GTI SE (DD) Gone and missed: 1992 Miata ("SSM") race car 2009 911 C2S Coupe 2004 Toyota Prius - sold to son's girlfriend 2006 Dodge Durango 2003 Acura MDX 86 Black 911 Coupe race car 86 Gold 911 Targa 82 WineRedMetallic 911 Targa |
#50
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Potomac events sell out quick not in spite of the clubs leadership on safety issues but because of it.... after watching close friends experience horrific wrecks...I’m 100% for the rule change. HANS if harnesses, no “harness bar” half steps, and always equal restraints. I don’t DE much anymore, but when I do, I choose PCAP.
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--- 2012 987.2 R (endless build) 2009 997.2 C2S 2012 F-150 (tow) --- 2013 991.1 C2 (sold) 2013 335i (RIP) 2001 4Runner (left by side of road in Georgia) 1990 Legend LS (RIP) 1988 Toyota 2WD reg cab (donated) 1987 GTi (sold) 1990 (TOM)Celica GTS (RIP) |
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