[Dandelion]

Originally Posted by threedownandlocked

Another car I'd consider for track duty is a Lotus Elise/Exige. Initial outlay is going to be a bit steep but you won't have much to upgrade. Plus, it's a toyota power plant.

Having owned one, it's neither well soundproofed nor that comfortable in the heat (AC designed for English summers.) You also end up with lots of stuff in the passenger seat because nothing taller than 10" fits in the trunk.

The prior points about fragility are also good ones - body work is expensive.

But otherwise, yes - great track vehicle if you can keep it off the tire walls.

ed

[ausgeflippt951]

Love the premise of this thread. I am not quite sure I agree with the rule that we must be able to drive the car to/from the track, even many hundreds of miles. I would argue that there are hardly any cars for under $40k that are capable of turning 1:22's, delivering you to MidO comfortably, and providing you with a rewarding driving experience (I'm talking to you, GTR). But hey, it's not my game.

I drove my first 951 (with racing seats/stiff suspension) from AZ to Road America. Driving a dedicated track car long distances can always be done...just depends on the stupidity of the driver, I suppose. Personally, for $40k I would spend some of this on a trailer/tow vehicle.



Anyway I'm sure I'll get banned for suggesting this, but I have always wanted to make a track car out of a 2nd gen Viper. There are some fundamental flaws that, for ~$15k, you can resolve: suspension, brakes, cooling, and seats/driving position. The engine is quite reliable when kept to normal temps, and it makes stupendous power.

Have a friend who effectively did this with his 2nd Gen, and even with Michelin PS2's, the thing was just awesome on track. With sticky rubber, it would have been epic -- easily capable of hitting the 1:22 benchmark.


Also, big reason why I haven't upgraded to a newer track car is because I love the communicativity (is that a word?) of my 951 -- I don't even have ABS. A 2nd gen Viper can be seen as a more modern extrapolation of that rawness.


Plus as a track car (esp. with aero), not many things look more awesome.

Originally Posted by smdubovsky

Use bleach and wash that idea out of your head. FRS is a stupid F-ing track car. Sure, it supposedly has great handing out "out of the box". How many stock cars do you own? Me: 0. The suspension is the FIRST thing track guys modify. Whats the hardest thing to do? Make 2x more power. So you can make anything handle better and outrun a FRS on track. Its another miata. Great for what it is but its going to get its doors blown off.

Start w/ a big reliable motor and upgrade the rest. Nothing wrong w/ the mustang solid axle. They are nutter fast on track. As a p-car and german/italian fanboy and its sort of depressing to think that you could take ANY american V8 car and lap the entire PCA paddock for a small fraction of the money. They have simply upped the ante an unfathomable amount in the last couple years.

This is an interesting point. And pretty much the direction I was coming from in my head as well (see above).

Originally Posted by threedownandlocked

Ariel Atom, Caterham?

This is the other route I've gone in my head -- as long as it had components that were generally off-the-shelf, it may be a great option.

Originally Posted by threedownandlocked

GTR. Since you want to pay GT3 money.

Never. I'm assuming the OP actually wants to do the driving himself.

Originally Posted by Varejao17

Having owned one, it's neither well soundproofed nor that comfortable in the heat (AC designed for English summers.) You also end up with lots of stuff in the passenger seat because nothing taller than 10" fits in the trunk.

The prior points about fragility are also good ones - body work is expensive.

But otherwise, yes - great track vehicle if you can keep it off the tire walls.

ed

See Stephen's comment above about being underpowered -- the most common gripe I hear from Lotus guys is how peaky the engines are. I loved the time I drove an Elise on track, and I suppose I can see the 180hp as being frustrating.

[LPM911]

Originally Posted by ausgeflippt951

I am not quite sure I agree with the rule that we must be able to drive the car to/from the track, even many hundreds of miles. I would argue that there are hardly any cars for under $40k that are capable of turning 1:22's, delivering you to MidO comfortably, and providing you with a rewarding driving experience (I'm talking to you, GTR). But hey, it's not my game.

I disagree. Why don't you think $40k can get you an arrive and drive car that will run in the 21/22 range? Let's compare my G class 964 and e46 m3...

My G class 964 at 2910lbs making 247hp at the crank per the factory (and thats on a good day), running hoosiers, and a euro rs street suspension is in the 22s.

My e46 m3 at 3400lbs making 333hp at the crank per the factory yields a better hp/weight ratio. Granted I haven't taken the m3 on the track, but on paper, its looking like with r comps and some suspension (easily allowed in this budget), it would quite easily get to the mark. E90s are ~100lbs more but with 400+ hp, so that might work into the budget as well. And in the M3 you could keep your AC, radio, nav, cup holder, etc etc etc.

All this talk makes me want to get a set of r comps and take the m3 to the track...

[CanAm]

$40K budget may be too tight, but I think some variant of a Cayman with good tires needs to be considered also.

[ausgeflippt951]

Originally Posted by LPM911

I disagree. Why don't you think $40k can get you an arrive and drive car that will run in the 21/22 range? Let's compare my G class 964 and e46 m3...

I see what you did there, and I like it -- an arrive-n-drive model would work great: drive your comfortable luxury cruiser up to the track, where the track car would be waiting for you.

Now that I re-read your post, I'm actually not sure that is what you meant, but I like the idea nonetheless.


My contention was that a track car capable of pulling fast lap times AND being safe (i.e., racing seats, harnesses, roll bar at minimum, suspension, etc) won't be the most comfortable vehicle to drive on the road up to the track. Additionally, any spares/tires/tools you wish to bring along won't fit in too many of these cars.

The kicker in all of this is where you're willing to compromise: I once had to drive an old 911 race car 3 hours on the highway (for reasons I won't get into) and, while I arrived at my destination in one piece, I can't say it was a pleasant experience. And I certainly wasn't rested and ready for a weekend of driving on the track.


That's why I figured one would be better served spending some of this $40k buying a trailer + tow vehicle, and just spending less on the car itself.

[BlackTalon]

There was a FRS at SP this past weekend and the driver was having a blast in Black Group. He was running right around 1:30. That is with coilovers/ double-adjustable shocks/ struts and an exhaust system. The elec dif really helped the car scoot in T3 and T6. Looked decent enough inside; better than I expected.

I suspect with a little tuning and some aftermarket antiroll bars you could shave another second or two.

Honestly I didn't expect much from that car, but fit 'n' finish, etc. seemed a level above Evos, etc. Frankly the Evo MR looked like a way-too-tall heavy pig compared to the FRS.

[LPM911]

Originally Posted by ausgeflippt951

I see what you did there, and I like it -- an arrive-n-drive model would work great: drive your comfortable luxury cruiser up to the track, where the track car would be waiting for you.

Now that I re-read your post, I'm actually not sure that is what you meant, but I like the idea nonetheless.

That is definitely not what I meant. I meant that if my sub 250hp 964 on a street suspension can hit 22s, then an m3 with 100 more ponies on slightly less racey tires should be able to get close to 21/22 mark. The m3 can haul tires on the roof or in the trunk (or some combination there of if you can't get them all inside with the cage).

Originally Posted by ausgeflippt951

My contention was that a track car capable of pulling fast lap times AND being safe (i.e., racing seats, harnesses, roll bar at minimum, suspension, etc) won't be the most comfortable vehicle to drive on the road up to the track. Additionally, any spares/tires/tools you wish to bring along won't fit in too many of these cars.

...

That's why I figured one would be better served spending some of this $40k buying a trailer + tow vehicle, and just spending less on the car itself.

I think you are missing the point of the question. The point of this thread is to ponder what vehicle could do 21/22s without the need of a truck/trailer/etc. The question was not "what is the best way to spend $40k for track equipment"

[LPM911]

Originally Posted by CanAm

$40K budget may be too tight, but I think some variant of a Cayman with good tires needs to be considered also.

Carrying a full set of tires on the roof is do able, but certainly pushing the weight limits. I ran the roof rack set up for years on my 964 and its do able. With 2 trunks and the passenger seat, you'd probably have enough room for tools and gear for a drive to WG or Mid-Ohio.

Haven't priced Caymans so not sure about the budget side or if they are capable of 21/22s on RA1s. Would probably be more fun than the portly M3s too!

[ausgeflippt951]

Originally Posted by LPM911

That is definitely not what I meant. I meant that if my sub 250hp 964 on a street suspension can hit 22s, then an m3 with 100 more ponies on slightly less racey tires should be able to get close to 21/22 mark. The m3 can haul tires on the roof or in the trunk (or some combination there of if you can't get them all inside with the cage).

My mistake -- thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by LPM911

I think you are missing the point of the question. The point of this thread is to ponder what vehicle could do 21/22s without the need of a truck/trailer/etc. The question was not "what is the best way to spend $40k for track equipment"

But but but...yeah, Ok I see where you're coming from. What held me up is the rule stating you must be able to drive all day to the track. This can be much more taxing than is perhaps apparent to some. Being able vs. being willing are often not mutually inclusive.

And hey -- what's the point of playing the game if you can't challenge the rules?






Also wait -- your stock 964 on sticky tires is doing 1:22's? Jesus H. Christ man. I knew you were fast, but wow.

[Fumes]

Originally Posted by threedownandlocked

might as well go 991 c2

^^^^^^

this !