[ausgeflippt951]

I think Drscope was referring to cars with lots of aero.

Sports cars are sliding around, but aero/formula cars don't slide nearly as much.


TR -- do you have a picture of your door bars? I'd really like to see your setup.

[Vicegrip]

This thread is 3 conversations going at the same time. Racing safety aspects, DE safety aspects and chatter. Racing and DE share the track and some other aspects but Racing and DE are not the same thing. What is a true safety improvement in a track only car might not be so in a street car. I see things that could be considered un-improvements in track only cars. The SCCA aproved race car with hot fluid access to the driver and the like.

Random notes.

I don't think things have changes since I worked PCA DE and CR Tech and such items like plastic rollbars or pop riveted seats would not make it past the on the lift pre tech. Race cars get less inspection than DE cars. All DE cars have to go through a up on a lift inspection before they get to the track for EACH event. Race cars get a single compliance and safety inspection to get a log book and that is track side.

I don't know of any mandated lock out on a corner in DE or PCA CR. PCA puts EMT on track as soon as it is safe to do so not after a clock goes ding.

A modern stock Porsche will not dribble gas down someones neck if inverted. You can't mandate to 100% fix Stupid. Stupid is often clever at finding workarounds to your safety rules.

You can talk about what you see but there is also the record of what happens in all the places you are not and regardless of your experence and time line "everywhere else" is far more.

[Trak Ratt]

^ what he said

Originally Posted by smdubovsky

You don't race do you? You are in a four wheel drift nearly every corner. Its just not as egregious looking as is used to be as modern slip angles are lower. The skill is not only there, its even more refined than before out of necessity.

What he said. I'd prolly have soften the the first part to "you haven't watched much racing" but the rest is spot on. The more successful racers make it look easy while the rest of us likely spend to much time worrying about our sheet metal to take full advantage

Most hear don't think much of NASCAR but truth is any speed much over 160 MPH now a days is "slip angles"!! That's why when they get the tap it looks like slow motion til the dive brakes deploy.

[old worker]

This is a little funny, in that most of us well seasoned drivers (old) have been here....if you are considering installing roll over protection...you are feeling a little vulnerable. The adrenaline must be wearing off. Or you are graying around the ears. The question about running nothing, roll bar or a cage in your street car is important. The reason most of us want some sort of steel tube protection is in case the top of our track car comes in contact with the track surface at high speeds, let's say north of 100mph. Yes there are other protections and benefits of cage protection but a few down sides when using the street side of the car. You could just lift..... pick the max top speeds you feel are prudent in lapping your car with: no roll over protection, roll bar and cage. Most of us have "lifted" at one time or another, it's going to happen. I have to lift when the tires are going away Look you don't have to keep the guy behind you, behind you and you don't have to pass the guy in front of you to win the session. It may be a 4 letter word, but it's not a bad word.
data acquisition systems are much better at helping you develop your skills than lap times. If you are running with your buds agree on a format. This would require a little HPDE culture adjustment?
Save you money for more events....I'm just sayin.

[Fumes]

Agree with Tony - modern cars have LOADS of grip compared to just a decade ago. I mean, there are grip BUTTONS you can press to tighten things up on the track. But disagree the tires are more violent - I ran a season on OEM P-Zeros and for the second half was happily sliding around many corners. Not the fastest way through, but a lot of fun to learn and hey - it's a street car. And if I can catch the entry oversteer, or too big a breathe to rotate, just about anyone can. I've seen fast hands on the track (BMAN) and that ain't me. Now on R888s and much more grip, but quieter and let go much more quickly.

On the safety side of this discussion, I personally have come to the conclusion that no car can really be safe both places.

I don't drive my car on the street anymore because halos + springs + cage + bar + no rear interior + no 3 point belts + no airbags + no horn. It's pretty safe on the track but nowhere near the cocoon of safety adding a full cage to the system gives you in a high speed incident involving upside down time. Next year I'll go to a full cage because it's worth it, but I need to sell the car I'm in down the road so better off just getting a race car built for the track and completely safe.

And driving a track car on the street means likely no halos and no cage at minimum. Also I think modern cars rely on the airbags, so when you do things like add a quick-release wheel, you're messing with the street safety system too much for it to be really acceptable risk.

So I guess my thesis here is that safety in either context is a system. Mess with any significant components of that system, and it's less than optimal. The more you take away from either system, the more risk. Less than optimal may be acceptable risk to an individual, but that calculation will of course always be a personal choice.

[Drscope]

Not trying to get this thread off base, but there is a bit of a difference in tire technology that is helping to push speeds and the severity of impact way up.
On the left is the tire most people used to drive to the track and raced on. On the right is just one of many tires available today that are DOT street tires. Each require a different driving technique.

When it comes to incidents at track days and HPDE, this increase in tire technology is a significant part of people getting in over their heads.

Many racing classes and series limited tire choices or even went to a Spec Tire mainly to limit the costs. But I really think it's time that they started to go to a Spec Tire in many classes in an effort to limit the car's abilities.

[LPM911]

Originally Posted by Drscope

But I really think it's time that they started to go to a Spec Tire in many classes in an effort to limit the car's abilities.

This is what 24 Hours of LeMons series does. I forget the number of the tread wear rating, but there is a limit.

[HoodPin]

Originally Posted by LPM911

This is what 24 Hours of LeMons series does. I forget the number of the tread wear rating, but there is a limit.

Its either 190 or 200. As compared to 100 for a Toyo RA1. Or 40 for a Hoosier R6.

[Trak Ratt]

If I had it to do all over again I'd spend a LOT of time on the skid pad!!! This regardless of any talk about “modern tyres” and sliding. My one caveat would be that I’d invest in a set of Ho Ho rains a lot sooner

Note: not a lot more than I have in the past, but a LOT of time

[old worker]

I wrote a long serious response..... another day.

remember teaching how to " interrupt the pitch of the squealing rubber "