[smdubovsky]

Originally Posted by Carrera51

Not a defect in the roll bar, but an example of a poor install. Every bolt in roll bar I have seen, comes with reinforcement plates which are supposed to be used when installing the roll bar.

Depends. Autopower early-911 bars come w/ backing plates that sandwich the floor in the middle. Isn't going to stop it from punching through the floor. Its just a poor design. There are better avail. OG used to sell one that was good and sat on the frame rails. I copied it when I made mine

[old worker]

Originally Posted by Carrera51

Based on the photo, it appears that an improper installation was the reason for the roll bar pushing through the floor. Not a defect in the roll bar, but an example of a poor install. Every bolt in roll bar I have seen, comes with reinforcement plates which are supposed to be used when installing the roll bar. Question is was this a bolt in roll bar purchased from a manufacturer, or a home built roll bar.

Seems like all too often fingers get pointed at the safety gear in examples like this, without looking at how it was installed. In this case, if a Mustang has weak floors, why would you bolt a roll bar through them without doing anything to reinforce the attachment points? Personally, if I was building a track car today, I would have a proper cage built and installed by a good cage builder like Piper or in the case of the attached photos, my friend Kenny who is a race engineer and fabricator for Flying Lizard Motorsports.

Agree Mark, you want someone with experience installing safety equipment.

One of my concerns with our current HPDE program is we let people with less or no incident experience determine what equipment is needed, the driver!!!. We allow drivers to run at speeds well past factory safety equipment capabilities.....150mph in a factory stock GT3 or Cayman R? Really? Many years ago SCCA changed the rules from roll bars in production based cars to requiring a full cage. About 1983, give or take a year. So to address the roll bar car question in todays very fast production cars, that may not be enough protection in an end over end..... SCCA experience showed that after 115mph end over ends were likely. Roll bars do not give enough protection in end over ends. This is a math problem.

[Trak Ratt]

Originally Posted by old worker

Agree Mark, you want someone with experience installing safety equipment.

One of my concerns with our current HPDE program is we let people with less or no incident experience determine what equipment is needed...

If you are referring to PCA and PCAP in particular you are mistaken!! If you look at PCAP’s Tech Inspection sheet you will quickly see that they have carefully thought out what safety equipment is needed and what needs to be checked. The balance has always been to offer a opportunity for folk to learn and enjoy their cars in a reasonably safe controlled environment. Sure, we all would be safer in cars w/full cages, fire suits, Hans devices and harness but how many would be willing to add those to a mostly street driven car??

Sure the potencial lap times of modern cars far exceeds those of full on racers just a few years ago. But it’s better to have drovers learn their cars capabilities on other than public roads.

[old worker]

Originally Posted by Trak Ratt

If you are referring to PCA and PCAP in particular you are mistaken!! If you look at PCAP’s Tech Inspection sheet you will quickly see that they have carefully thought out what safety equipment is needed and what needs to be checked. The balance has always been to offer a opportunity for folk to learn and enjoy their cars in a reasonably safe controlled environment. Sure, we all would be safer in cars w/full cages, fire suits, Hans devices and harness but how many would be willing to add those to a mostly street driven car??

Sure the potencial lap times of modern cars far exceeds those of full on racers just a few years ago. But it’s better to have drovers learn their cars capabilities on other than public roads.

I might be confused, would not be the first time..... the point I was trying to make was the "driver" controls what safety equipment is used in their car on track in HPDE. A lite inspection of the car is done at the track by us. Dated items on race equipment and checking for non approved items for the most part on added safety items. The driver is then allowed to track that car at whatever speed they want. Where anyone stands on this practice is allowed to be personal choice by National and the regions. If an instructor is in the car, then they control 1. if the car is safe enough to ride in 2. how fast they will allow the student to drive that car while the instructor is in the right seat. Once a soloed student starts chasing lap times or other cars the line between racing and HPDE is difficult to see. From this point on this subject is a three day conversation.
Roll bars do a very good job if the car is rolling side over side ..... but end over end is a different situation. In HPDE the driver can choose to subject yourself to the added risk to save money. No more, no less.

[Vicegrip]

Originally Posted by old worker

Agree Mark, you want someone with experience installing safety equipment.

One of my concerns with our current HPDE program is we let people with less or no incident experience determine what equipment is needed, the driver!!!. We allow drivers to run at speeds well past factory safety equipment capabilities.....150mph in a factory stock GT3 or Cayman R? Really? Many years ago SCCA changed the rules from roll bars in production based cars to requiring a full cage. About 1983, give or take a year. So to address the roll bar car question in todays very fast production cars, that may not be enough protection in an end over end..... SCCA experience showed that after 115mph end over ends were likely. Roll bars do not give enough protection in end over ends. This is a math problem.

You are talking Racing. We are taking DE. Two entirely different things that happen to share a race track. you cannot require the same mods to a DE car as a race car or you defeat the intent of DE.

Roll bars don't add much improvement to the impact protection of a driver. Roof crush is about it.

[Vicegrip]

How does weight influence likelyhood?

[BlackTalon]

Originally Posted by Vicegrip

How does weight influence likelyhood?

The heavier the less likely to be picked up before closing time.

[Trak Ratt]

Originally Posted by BlackTalon

The heavier the less likely to be picked up before closing time.

... sorry, I always thought the heavier ones were more likely to be picked up at closing time??? Your know any portal in a storm

Or is that what you are implying boy-o

[Vicegrip]

Originally Posted by BlackTalon

The heavier the less likely to be picked up before closing time.

Originally Posted by Trak Ratt

... sorry, I always thought the heavier ones were more likely to be picked up at closing time???

The answer is C. All of the above.

[BlackTalon]

It also does not take into account increase passenger compartment protection (by way of energy absorption outside the compartment) in the newer cars. the 'baseline' for stock protection has improved quite a bit in the typical German cars most here use on the track.