[Trak Ratt]

Interesting comments in the vid thread for the most part

So I thought I'd start one on the traditional "All IN" vs "WTF ABS" spins. Sounds like pumping the brakes might work better in ABS cars during a spin... or at least a release and reapply? Comments?

[John]

Thanks, TR. I was actually just about to start this thread myself, because I drive an ABS car and haven't really heard much about spinning other than "Both Feet In" which is apparently not always correct. I'm also a little surprised at how little I've heard about it in classrooms considering the number of people droving with ABS now, particularly in the lower run groups.

[Toby]

Gas!

YouTube- Jason Plato "What A Save" BTCC 2009 Round 1 Race 3 at Brands Hatch

YouTube- Jason Plato "What A Save" BTCC 2009 Round 1 Race 3 at Brands Hatch

More seriously though, if the car is already in a spin, unless the drover can manage threshold braking while on grass, just let the ABS do the work. More importantly, it keeps the car from rolling toward the unsuspecting drover behind once the spinning stops.

The only difference I see is with ABS, both feet in and keep steering.

[Potomac-Greg]

I always suspected that "both feet in" on ABS did not have the same effect as in non-ABS cars. On my non-abs car, when the tires lock up, they're no longer influencing the direction of the car and it should continue in whatever direction its going. But ABS would unlock them and provide direction.

If I was driving an ABS car, it would still be both-feet-in, but expect the car to go where the tires are pointed. In the NSX video, he was basically toast before he countersteered.

[smdubovsky]

Originally Posted by Toby

with ABS, both feet in and keep steering.

x2

Keeping your foot on the brake still slows the car.

Keeping you foot on the clutch prevents turning the engine backwards once you go 'round.

[John Clay]

Having only spun once in the Boxster (no abs on the '44), I was caught a bit by surprise when the direction the steering wheel was pointed started to matter. TR, what would the concept be on pumping the brakes? The big reason I've been told for both feet in is to be predictable to those behind us. I wonder how much consistenty there is in a "both feet in" spinning ABS car?

[Landjet]

A related question- how do you determine, when the back end is loose, whether to lift or accelerate? I see these drifting guys stay on the accelerator for control, whereas so far I have used a slight lift off the accelerator to straiten the car. Plus I always hear lifting off in a rear engined car causes spinning. Personally I think emergency measures are hardly talked about or anylized in the classroom. Yes you hear drive straight off but not much in the way of various situational analysis. Even tailgating is rarely discussed in the lower run group classrooms, and I was in an instructors car this summer when tailgating caused him to loose control and spin.

[Trak Ratt]

Originally Posted by smdubovsky

x2

Keeping your foot on the brake still slows the car.

Keeping you foot on the clutch prevents turning the engine backwards once you go 'round.

was really talking about the 180 spin condition. U-no when you were droving witht the mirrors. ofcourse keeping your foot on the clutch would be seen as a good thing.

Originally Posted by John Clay

Having only spun once in the Boxster (no abs on the '44), I was caught a bit by surprise when the direction the steering wheel was pointed started to matter. TR, what would the concept be on pumping the brakes? The big reason I've been told for both feet in is to be predictable to those behind us. I wonder how much consistenty there is in a "both feet in" spinning ABS car?

I imagine if spin was fast enough there wouldn't be an issue. pumping the brakes is the "old fashion way." I was trying to get to the issue of the ABS releasing the wheels all together when going backwards. I was looking for info on ABS techniques since though I do have ABS cars I have seldom driven them down the shut backwards (yet)

[John Clay]

Larry - I can't imagine ever applying brakes because the back end is "loose". This discussion is what to do when you're past the point of avoiding a spin.....ignore Toby's video.

As for what to do when the back end is loose, my answer would be to do the opposite of what caused it to be loose. Too much throttle - less throttle. Not enough throttle (causing too much weight in front, or using the rear wheels to slow the car through the transmission) - more throttle.

[pjalexandre]

I think Steve has it nailed down. You want to reduce your speed before you leave the surface of the track. 9 times out of 10 you will simply slide to a stop on the track surface.

NSX everything is over at 3:05. He makes a double move on the steering wheel and the car's track is definitely initially going off of T4 but he second move on the steering wheel (almost immediately) pinches him towards the apex putting the car into a skid. At this point he could have stood on the brakes and looped it instead of counter steering into the wall.

This is the same reason that folks hit the inside of 9 into the trees and also hit the inside of 10 into the tire wall. Time and time again.

I can't tell you how many times I have seen folks sliding left and right and then leave the track and hit the brakes on the grass.

Originally Posted by smdubovsky

x2

Keeping your foot on the brake still slows the car.

Keeping you foot on the clutch prevents turning the engine backwards once you go 'round.