[BikePump]

JD thanks for the simplification of the message. I’m totally with you


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[tbernard]

The national min DE rules say that the roll bar needs to meet club racing specs.

"Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage and an approved Head and Neck Restraint System (HANS) device are strongly encouraged and highly recommended. The use of such a harness system without roll protection and HANS may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Roll bars or cages and their installation must meet PCA Club Racing Standards"

The club racing specs say backing plates need to be used. With this in mind it looks like most 991/981 bolt in roll bars will not meet the spec. In fact some sellers say they are harness bars.

Sorry not trying to stir this up, but just trying to understand what will or will not be acceptable before spending any $'s.

"APPENDIX A ‐ ROLL CAGE SPECIFICATIONS
Roll Cages: The roll cage must be securely mounted with the mounting plates at the bottom of the hoops mounted directly to the floor and/or longitudinal members of the unibody and make metal to metal contact. Any padding, carpet, upholstery, etc. must be removed to satisfy this requirement. The mounting area of bolt‐in roll cage must be backed by a plate of a size equal to that of the upper mounting plate with a minimum thickness of 3/16”. Bolts must be grade 5 or higher. The roll cage must be full cockpit width, except as originally supplied by the factory for open racecars, and have two fore/aft tubing braces. The braces must be mounted as near to the top of the main hoop as possible at an included angle of at least 30 degrees. Also, the assembly must contain a diagonal (left to right side) tubing brace from one upper side of the main hoop to a floor or unibody lower frame mounting point of a bar member on the other side to obtain the strength benefits of triangulation. Roll cage bar tubing in the Stock/Prepared Classes must remain within the passenger compartment. The removal of the door glass to facilitate side impact protection is allowed. Carbon fiber roll cages are not allowed.
The roll cage must have a full width main hoop and a full‐width front hoop or two side halo hoops around the door opening connected by tubing across the top of the entire windshield. The tops of the hoops must be as close to the roof as possible in closed‐ top cars. In open‐top cars, the top of the main hoop must be at least 2” above the driver’s helmet, and the plane formed by the top of the main hoop and the top of the front hoop must be above the driver’s head in both closed and open top cars. The front (or side halo) and main hoops must go to the floor pan and be connected with each other with tubing as close to the roof line as possible. The cage must have at least one additional bar across the door opening below the window level on each side connecting the front and main hoops for side impact protection. Additional side impact protection (two bars or “NASCAR” style bars protruding into the door) is strongly recommended.
An inspection hole 3/16" in diameter must be provided in a non‐critical area for verification of tube thickness. Any portion of the assembly which may come in contact with the driver’s helmet must be covered with high density foam at least 3/4" thick held securely in place with zip ties, electrical tape or duct tape. Foam must be equivalent to SFI 45.1 or FIA 8857 standards for hardness.
Minimum Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
All required tubing must have the following minimum diameters and wall thicknesses:
Car Weight without Driver
Under 2500 lbs.
Mild Steel 1.50" x .095" Alloy Steel 1.375 x .095"
Over 2500 lbs.
1.75" x .095” or 1.50" x .120”
1.50" x .095"
Factory Roll Cages as delivered in factory race cars are allowed. Roll cages sold or installed by Porsche in street cars are allowed in stock class cars if certified to meet FIA regulations."

[Dr K]

^This is exactly what I'm talking about. SHOW ME actual test data that shows driving with a 3-point belt and air bags is safer on the race track (in DE conditions) than a race seat, 6-point harnesses and a HANS with the harnesses properly mounted. If there's no data, than don't ask a driver to make major compromises to his/her street car in order to allow significant safety enhancement for the few days per year they take the car to the track.

Peter

[N0tt0N]

Actually that was NOT what Todd was talking about. He followed the chain of implications through the regulations to locate the actual end result, perhaps unintended. Specification by reference is challenging to manage. Workable solutions are often arrived at by an informal agreement that both parties look the other way when faced with the reality of the rules in a system with all the other rules. This creates an acceptable practice that has its own weight alongside the formal rules. The boat gets rocked when a new rule is presented to be strictly enforced. Both parties must now re-evaluate the whole system of rules. Some rules don't mean what people thought they meant now. Some might say they read this latest announcement to say a Bolt in roll bar is an easy, logical, and reasonable fix for any driver worth his salt so just do it. Todd points out that may not be so based on the actual rules. What do I do, one might ask? Hope they do what they say on the grid? Expect to be asked to leave the event with a better subsystem or remove it and stay?

There's obviously a workable solution but it does generate a fair bit of confusion. All natural. Some avoidable.

[Chopper Dropper]

Potomac DE committee are in process after many comments and discussion reworking this . Please do not bother to respond to this thread as we will be starting a new one shortly
Dirk

[Aaron Ambrosino]

Originally Posted by Chopper Dropper

Hi DE folks, a heads up as to new regs coming down, we are just the messengers, Insurance, liability and courts make the rules (maybe lawyers too)

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY: a HANS (or comparable) device is required when using a harness

EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2018 (in anticipation of the forthcoming mandate from PCA National): occupants in vehicles equipped with only a "harness bar" will no longer be allowed to use harnesses; a roll bar must be added. For convertibles / cabriolets, a harness bar + factory pop-up roll bars or fixed hoops is acceptable providing the harness bar installation does not interfere with operation of the pop-up roll bar or fixed hoops. (And these cases must also comply with the "2 inch rule". See here: https://pcapotomac.org/activities/dr...let-or-boxster)
Also keep in mind that our long-standing rule of "equal restraints" for both driver and passenger remains in effect alongside the new rules above. For example, if either occupant does not have or is not using HANS (in a car with harnesses and roll bar), then neither occupant may use HANS or harnesses, and instead, both must use OEM seat belts

This thread was just brought to my attention and I wanted to respond for clarification. At this time there is no mandate coming form PCA National disallowing harness bars and requiring the use of roll bars if harness are used.

The DE Minimum Standards currently state, "The participant should BE AWARE that the addition of such a seat and harness system results in the occupant being fastened upright in the vehicle. Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage and an approved Head and Neck Restraint System (HANS) device are strongly encouraged and highly recommended."

However, Regions have the ability to be more restrictive than the DE Minimum Standards but cannot be less restrictive. I hope this helps to clarify Nationals stance on harness and roll bars.

Aaron

[Trak Ratt]

Dirk, why not ask one of the mods to lock this thread down? Since you'd rather not have more comments until the new message is ready.

[BlackTalon]

Originally Posted by Trak Ratt

Dirk, why not ask one of the mods to lock this thread down? Since you'd rather not have more comments until the new message is ready.

Dirk indicated there will be a new thread with new information official PCA Potomac information. People are free to keep bitching/ griping/ speculating here. It just won't mean anything.

[Trak Ratt]

Originally Posted by BlackTalon

Dirk indicated there will be a new thread with new information official PCA Potomac information. People are free to keep bitching/ griping/ speculating here. It just won't mean anything.

[SilverStreak]

Originally Posted by Aaron Ambrosino

This thread was just brought to my attention and I wanted to respond for clarification. At this time there is no mandate coming form PCA National disallowing harness bars and requiring the use of roll bars if harness are used.

The DE Minimum Standards currently state, "The participant should BE AWARE that the addition of such a seat and harness system results in the occupant being fastened upright in the vehicle. Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage and an approved Head and Neck Restraint System (HANS) device are strongly encouraged and highly recommended."

However, Regions have the ability to be more restrictive than the DE Minimum Standards but cannot be less restrictive. I hope this helps to clarify Nationals stance on harness and roll bars.

Aaron

Thanks for the clarification.

What is national's position on equal restraint. Assume OE belts and harnesses exist in the car is it national's position that if one occupant does not have a Hans then neither occupant can wear a Hans and use harnesses if they are available to him/her?

The example posed would be a newer student who hasn't bought a Hans yet wants to ride with the instructor whose car has both options. The instructor cannot wear harnesses and Hans while the student rides along with no Hans and OE belts?