[Chopper Dropper]

Where is Todd D??
Dirk

[smdubovsky]

Originally Posted by Chopper Dropper

Where is Todd D??
Dirk

LOL. Collin has the Milliken book so he out geeks even me! You guys don't know whats coming (Collin, no offense. I find that stuff great.)

[ausgeflippt951]

Originally Posted by smdubovsky

LOL. Collin has the Milliken book so he out geeks even me! You guys don't know whats coming (Collin, no offense. I find that stuff great.)

Hehehe no offense taken at all -- I definitely do geek out for crap like this. In addition to Milliken, I've got all of the "To Win" series by Smith, plus a few others (there was a point at which I figured I should stop buying books and just drive the damn car).

This weekend was funny -- Brian and I are fairly different drivers: Brian is very "feel-based", whereas I tend to be very analytical, but I think this is why I learned so much from him. I like to think I have enough nominal talent to produce a good baseline (i.e., sans analysis), and that enabled me to understand what he was saying. We really worked on getting me more comfortable with getting the car to dance along the traction circle while working on smoothing out my inputs.


One particularly helpful lap occurred when I entered the Loop too hot. I then proceeded to trailbrake harder/deeper than I should have, in an effort to fight the car back on-line to hit the apex. Meanwhile, this totally scrubbed my apex speed and butchered my corner exit.

The "Ah Ha" moment was when Brian mentioned that getting back on-line was less important than just dealing with the circumstances I was given in an effort to maintain speed. Hell, in a race, only the first place car and the last place car ever get to drive on-line. Everyone else has to adapt to what line they were given by the cars around them. If I butcher the entry to a corner, work on keeping the car under control while maximizing my speed out of the corner. If this keeps me off "the line", so be it.

Janni (the skidpad guy) reinforced this by mentioning that at many BMW Club events, they will have an "off-line only" run, in which the instructor won't let the driver drive "the line".

[racer]

Anyone have some pics from this event?

[vranko]

Collin, I really enjoy your driving dynamics discussions! I love to geek out over this stuff. Keep it coming.

Originally Posted by ausgeflippt951

Brian is very "feel-based"

I'd call it closer to "Force-based". My takeaway from his guidance through the climbing esses at VIR was "close your eyes and use the Force". That's why I started to call him Sensei, although Yoda may be more appropriate.

[HateDCRoads]

Originally Posted by ausgeflippt951

This weekend was funny -- Brian and I are fairly different drivers: Brian is very "feel-based", whereas I tend to be very analytical, but I think this is why I learned so much from him. I like to think I have enough nominal talent to produce a good baseline (i.e., sans analysis), and that enabled me to understand what he was saying. We really worked on getting me more comfortable with getting the car to dance along the traction circle while working on smoothing out my inputs.

Actually, once you get more experienced, what you will learn is that the two go together. As you learn to feel the car, you learn how this translates into car position, line, and inputs. At this point, I basically know if I bungled a turn even before I turn in just based on my speed, position, and how settled the car feels, and I note to myself what I did wrong and adjust to make the best of a bad job.

In my opinion, this ability to "predict" the behavior of your car on the track is what separates upper versus lower run group drivers, and a lot of it is just experience based, as your brain and body learn to feel the input form the car.

[HoodPin]

FWIW, when a corner is botched, I always recommend focusing first on getting the car under control. Straight is often the best approach, even if it means leaving the pavement. Trying to fight a "bad situation" by forcing the car back to the line is not usually helpful. My approach is to get the car straight and slowed first, and then "safely" re-join the line you actually want. Once back on line you can start re-builidng your pace & speed again. If a botched line could be driven at speed without any loss of time, then we'd be doing it all the time, wouldn't we?

[smdubovsky]

Originally Posted by ausgeflippt951

If I butcher the entry to a corner, work on keeping the car under control while maximizing my speed out of the corner. If this keeps me off "the line", so be it.

I don't know you skill level but this is dangerous for new students. Sure its the norm in racing. But if Im riding shotgun instructing, you ask a student to ALWAYS hit the apex, your exit will always be safe. Now, you don't want to wreck getting down to the apex, but you get the point.

Until you have exp running off line in general, and exp off line at that particular track/corner, be very careful "maximizing exit speed". There are no trophies to lose in DE if you don't beat some guy down the next straight. Lots of things to learn before safely driving off line fast.

[smdubovsky]

Couple of posts in between since I started the first reply so I'll expand more.

Getting down to the apex if you've overcooked entry is a skill you'll need anyway: *HOW* do you bleed the speed while turning when you realize you're in too hot. This very often involves sliding & rotating the car. You have the advantage learning it at the apex by being fairly slow and lots of runoff (you have the whole track to still slide across afteral (ABS equipped car excepted))

So once you've developed this skill and are gaining speed you WILL eventually overcook an exit. *HOW* do you bleed speed & tighten the line? The answer is the exact same skill you've already developed. Now, going straight off is an answer too. But it should be the one reserved for AFTER the first attempt didn't work (or more appropriately: you realize its not going to work ENOUGH.)

An extreme example: Summit Pt. SpecE30. Racing. Going into T10. Apply brakes. Foot goes to the floor and NOTHING happens. Let me repeat: NOTHING happens (the dumbass driving put a pad in backwards and it just exploded but I didn't know that at that instant.) I can drive straight off but I don't know that the T10 gravel trap is long enough to stop a car going in straight. Made the quick (instant?) decision to turn and bleed as much speed as possible before going off. Pitched the car in sideways, missed the apex by a good bit (but was trying), but MADE THE CORNER (all the while pumping the brakes trying to get something to work.) I learned 3 things: 1) You CAN make T10 w/o braking, 2) BMW brake designs are a PITA allowing my error to occur in the first place (others have done it too) 3) RAPIDLY pumping brakes doesn't give the master cyl enough time to fill - you actually have to wait a second or so between presses for the pedal to come back up (which feels like an ETERNITY in that situation.)

So my stance is still: if you are being instructed - make the apex. Its GREAT to discuss the other scenarios/options while in the car however. No better chance to learn than right after the mistake. I've even given a DE2 student who was ready 'racing line' advice on track at VIR (not the 'party line' that is taught.) But I asked him not to try it w/ me in the car, work up to it slowly, and discussed the consequences and some 'outs' to be prepared for WHEN he went too far.

[ausgeflippt951]

Thanks for all the responses. I thought I might open a can o' worms with this one.

There are a number of factors one must consider before one makes the decision to drive off-line and try to salvage the corner.

These factors, in my case, were notably (but not limited to) the following. Thoughts?:

1) Just how fast am I going? Do I need to go off-track? Better safe than sorry. I've definitely driven off-track before; it's not something I'm afraid to do, per se.
1a) If i do go off, what's my escape route? Also need to make sure I go off straight to minimize chances of rollover.

2) Is there any traffic ahead or behind me who might be affected by my decision?

3) If I am not going sufficiently hot enough to guarantee my need for going off-track, what is the off-line track surface like? In my case, it was dirty+dusty+marble-y, but no standing water/mud.

4) Are the off-line conditions poor enough to warrant re-evaluation of going off-track? If so, revisit #1.



Based off of that decision process, I decided it was safe for me to try and salvage the corner. In my case, keep in mind it's all very relative: while I was certainly traveling fast relative to Green Group, I'm pretty positive that this would've been no problemo for more experienced drivers.

I think I was trying to convey that one element I would like to work on with my instructors is my ability to adapt. For example, when I'm driving on-line and without issue, I am good at concentrating on being smooth. However, when I slip up or have a lapse in judgment, I need to maintain that level of smoothness to get me back on-track (no pun intended). In my mind, one's comfortability with adapting will help minimize the time/effort it takes to get back in-sync. Is this a valid assessment?


I should also note that I get very critical with my driving. Whenever I meet my instructor for the first time, I tell him/her to be as nit-picky as possible. I've got a thick skin, and my ultimate goal is to be smooth, safe, and fast. Push me to perform (once the instructor feels comfortable with me), and I'll let you know if I'm operating outside of my comfort zone.