[Cliff Claven]

Originally Posted by TD in DC

Third, a driver can develop the car control skills to regain control of his or her car when he or she has momentarily exceeded the limit. This is impossible to do if you are relying on PSM or if you never come close to the limit. Experience is the only way.

OK, I guess I didn't understand this before. I've been working under the assumption that the "limit" was by definition the point beyond which you can't control your car anymore, because if you are able to control it above that point then you're not beyond your "limit". I've been thinking that if you have the skills to recover from a sudden unexpected circumstance then you have not yet reached your limit. But if the "limit" is some point lower than the point beyond which you can no longer control your car if a mishap occurs, then this all makes sense and I guess we're saying the same thing. Unless of course you disagree, in which case I'd have to concur with that.

If it's about learning to recover from a slide or learning how the car moves when it starts to spin then maybe a skid pad would come in handy.

Please keep in mind that I've not been telling you whether to drive at any particular level and believe only that you should drive in the manner that suits you and works for you in attaining your personal goals in a reasonable manner--and of course 9/10 or even 10/10 falls well within the realm of reasonability depending on those goals--and so like Dave I too am on your side in this and quite frankly enjoy watching you push closer to the "limit" though I don't enjoy seeing anyone having a costly or unreasonable mishaps.

[Rob in VA]

I didn't get a chance to read through all 12+ pages... What page is the video on?

[}{arlequin]

Originally Posted by Rob in VA

I didn't get a chance to read through all 12+ pages... What page is the video on?

LOL, thank you... apparently there are video skipping issues... something to do w/ impact and rough treatment of the camera equipment

i have an observation... i don't think tee-dee had a "wreck". he tapped a wall. to me a wreck is something from which the car usually does not recover. that's why when people say "i dented some panels" it usually isn't as severe as when people say "i wrecked my car"

another thing.... in the argumentative threads about seatbelts, i think kurt mentions some stat that shows a 40 mph impact amounting to 20-30g's(?). how is it possible that tee-dee's 80+ hit (even if he slowed down to 50 just before impact) only registered 3g?

[Jase007]

how is it possible that tee-dee's 80+ hit (even if he slowed down to 50 just before impact) only registered 3g?

B/c it was a "tap" ... not a wreck...?

Did I win?

Do I get a prize ?

[KevinOyler]

TD will describe it more completely, but the collision with the tire wall was a glancing blow. His forward speed was 80 mph at the outset, but his lateral speed towards the tire wall was much, much less. You can see by the black streaks (on the side of the car, not the seat) the primary direction of travel of the car as it contacted the tire wall. And the car had done much skidding and a 180 before contact. Fortunately, the force was spread along the entire length of the side of the car, and nearly simultaneously, which reduced the concentration of energy at any one point. FWIW

[Rob in VA]

Originally Posted by KevinOyler

TD will describe it more completely, but the collision with the tire wall was a glancing blow. His forward speed was 80 mph at the outset, but his lateral speed towards the tire wall was much, much less. You can see by the black streaks (on the side of the car, not the seat) the primary direction of travel of the car as it contacted the tire wall. And the car had done much skidding and a 180 before contact. Fortunately, the force was spread along the entire length of the side of the car, and nearly simultaneously, which reduced the concentration of energy at any one point. FWIW

I'm glad to hear that and I'm also very glad to hear that TD is doing fine.

There was a pretty scary "wreck" at summit point (hyperfest) last weekend. A racer in AI (American Iron) lost his brakes going into turn 1 (off the straight) and went crashing through the tire wall and into the concrete barrier! Luckily he walked away on his own accord, but his car (mustang cobra) did not. That was pretty scary.

[smdubovsky]

Just back from Summit so Im late responding...

Originally Posted by TD in DC

P.S. Thanks Todd and SMB about the advice regarding LSDs and modulating the throttle. I was fighting my instinct to do just that because I thought it would further lighten the rear end and make the spin increase in speed. I now understand how a very slight breathe off the throttle might have allowed the rear to hook up again without shifting too much weight to the front.

TD,
Carefull - You did the right thing - for a while. When you start the slide/drift, lifting can be fatal w/o adding lots of countersteering. Im guessing when the surface changed, you went from sliding to more spinning (the tires) - a subtle difference. And the more sideways you get the lower the threshold between the two is. When your in a 4 wheel drift keep the right foot down - when you realize its getting a little out of hand a lift MIGHT be required. If the pavement is good and its a slow rotation, you just have to stay ahead of the car and drift it to rediculous slip angles. Its when it happens suddenly due to a bump, pavement change, or the transition from slide to spin (the tires) a lift is required. 99% of the time I was already in a drift (I was in a turn afterall right?) when I noticed the rotation start to rapidly increase w/ no change in my inputs so SOMETHING must have changed externally. Im a big fan of the release the steering wheel technique to catch a slide when it starts to get out of hand (which by definition means Im getting behind the car). Not the dramatic "completely let go and regrab" like you see in the ring videos, but very light fingers and letting the wheel 'slip' at appropriate times to catch up w/ the car. (Like a clutch - not on/off but smooth). It can be done quite smoothly to great sucess. Using your fingers to 'listen' to the front end is priceless. Sometimes they say "let go, luke". (Damn, did I just quote star wars?)

FWIW, A big "save my ass" skill I have learned over the years is to slide the car and bleed speed. Every once in a while youll get in too hot (or be mid turn an recognise something has changed) and need to slow down AND continue turning. I suspect its going to be really handy in racing...

Originally Posted by N Fotouhi

The point I was trying to make is that going 10/10 and going fast are not the same to me. One may continue to go 10/10, but the speed at which 10/10 is reached may be lower. So, if you go into a given turn at a given speed when the tires are new and at optimum temperature, you will eventually loose control when the tires are old or overheated and there is nothing you can do short of slowing down.

EXCELLENT point (and said clearer this time that the first). And learning to still go 10/10s in sub-optimal conditions and recognizing the different limits is also a part of what its all about. Sort of like driving in the rain...

My disclaimer: Im NOT a great racer. My first was this weekend and I got somewhat killed (as expected). I do consider myself pretty fast and can wring most of what the car will give me out of it. Im using racing simply as a tool to learn more. Not just racecraft and awareness, but by chasing the REALLY fast guys will make me faster. I still plan on doing DE & TTs. Going fast and semi-scaring the crap out of yourself is what its all about whether its nose to tail in a DE, side by side in racing, or all alone in a TT/rally. Its ALL good.

SMD
________
Vaporizer

[smdubovsky]

Originally Posted by Rob in VA

There was a pretty scary "wreck" at summit point (hyperfest) last weekend. A racer in AI (American Iron) lost his brakes going into turn 1 (off the straight) and went crashing through the tire wall and into the concrete barrier! Luckily he walked away on his own accord, but his car (mustang cobra) did not. That was pretty scary.

Was that on Sun? Autobahn group was the first to run and we hit the road right after the race to watch the game in tivo.

SMD
________
Herbalaire Vaporizer

[VaSteve]

SMD, were you in the Autobahn group? I got a bunch of photos in the 944cup thread. What car were you running?

[APKhaos]

Originally Posted by smdubovsky

Was that on Sun? Autobahn group was the first to run and we hit the road right after the race to watch the game in tivo.

SMD

No, it was Saturday afternoon's race. I happened to be up in the tower when it happened, and heard the race net and EV net light up in unison. It looked ugly, but the driver was fine. The driver was using a HANS. I used mine for the first time in Sunday's race.