[APKhaos]

Here's how the overlapped group rollon/rolloff [RORO] works under NASA.

On the checker lap, the first and following cars in the returning group are vectored through the hot pit and into the paddock until the last car in the group passes T5.

At that point, the returning group is held in the hot pit and the new group is sent out under double yellow. When the 'ready' cars of the new group are on track, stragglers are held until the remaining cars from the old group are marshalled into the paddock.

In the higher run groups, the track goes green when the last returning car is through the hot pit. In lower groups, the track stays under double yellow for the first lap. Its that simple.

We can learn from this, given that its a proven procedure. No need to reinvent that particular wheel.

[ttrew]

Yes, the rolling start idea is exctly what Tony described. If we do implement this, we would certainly copy something that works from NASA or others. There have been some concerns voiced due to the inevitable fact that some hot cars with hot brakes will sit on the hot grid for a couple of minutes while the next run group is flagged out.

Using the back entrance is a potential safety issue since it is a blind turn as you come off the track, up the slight incline, and turn right behind the tower. If someone stalled or could not find first, you have a potential for a beltway type of chain collision. So we have to weigh the potential for that against the benefit of a 1-2 minute time savings.

The interesting thing is that some years ago this debate resulting in a change...from 4 to 3 run sessions. The complaint then was that the run sessions were not long enough, that if an incident happened the later run sessions got shortened to 4 or 5 laps, that instructors were running back and forth between cars too much, etc.

I am still having a hard time determining what the real issue is. I am hearing at least two: 1 - We want more track time per day, which has nothing to do with running 3 or 4 sessions, and 2 - We want 4 sessions because our brains get fried after 20 minutes. The original post was all about issue #1, some of the later discussion is about issue #2.

[TD in DC]

Originally Posted by ttrew

I am still having a hard time determining what the real issue is. I am hearing at least two: 1 - We want more track time per day, which has nothing to do with running 3 or 4 sessions, and 2 - We want 4 sessions because our brains get fried after 20 minutes. The original post was all about issue #1, some of the later discussion is about issue #2.

Tom,

You are absolutely right that there are two issues under discussion, and that the two issues are absolutely unrelated apart from the common goal of maximizing track time.

I personally favor the NASA style stop/starts regardless of whether we stick with 3 runs or go to 4 runs. Under either scenario, the NASA start/stops maximize track time.

I am more ambivalent about the 3 vs. 4 issue, but I lean towards 4. Your explanation, however, has been very helpful.

TD

[}{arlequin]

Originally Posted by ttrew

The interesting thing is that some years ago this debate resulting in a change...from 4 to 3 run sessions. The complaint then was that the run sessions were not long enough, that if an incident happened the later run sessions got shortened to 4 or 5 laps, that instructors were running back and forth between cars too much, etc.

can't please everybody anyway... so why not please the majority?

[Vicegrip]

I think the group that implemented the 3 a day was not a large group. Perhaps unintended results came about and not from misguided efforts. Long wait times and driver brain fade are two that are often ponted out. I have seen both myself.
That longer runs are not good from a learning aspect is held by most and with other venue data to back it up. let's say that 4 is better for early learning. 3 is easer on instructors. That is one point.

The other point is total drive time.

Lets say overall track time is something that can only be increased with more day.
As I asked earler can the day be longer? What sets the 8-1 for lunch = 7 hours of track time? local law, track rules, WVA flagger union, us? If it is us and the contract we made with SPR can we purchase more day? Club Race runs longer than we do, can DE as well? It is not like folks don't want it or are not willing to pay for it. Calling Eric S!

[APKhaos]

Originally Posted by ttrew

Yes, the rolling start idea is exctly what Tony described. If we do implement this, we would certainly copy something that works from NASA or others. There have been some concerns voiced due to the inevitable fact that some hot cars with hot brakes will sit on the hot grid for a couple of minutes while the next run group is flagged out.

Using the back entrance is a potential safety issue since it is a blind turn as you come off the track, up the slight incline, and turn right behind the tower. If someone stalled or could not find first, you have a potential for a beltway type of chain collision. So we have to weigh the potential for that against the benefit of a 1-2 minute time savings. <snip>

Tom,
The incoming cars are vectored down the full length of the hot pit, exactly as we do it. They depart the hot pit into the paddock at the control station. They are held at that point when the on-going group are being released.
The 'tight right turn' at the T10 observation tower from hot pit to paddock is absolutely not used, and would be a safety nightmare for the reasons you quote, plus the added risk of conflict with cars entering the grid from the paddock.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by APKhaos

Tom,
The incoming cars are vectored down the full length of the hot pit, exactly as we do it. They depart the hot pit into the paddock at the control station. They are held at that point when the on-going group are being released.
The 'tight right turn' at the T10 observation tower from hot pit to paddock is absolutely not used, and would be a safety nightmare for the reasons you quote, plus the added risk of conflict with cars entering the grid from the paddock.

We all drive on the Beltway which is far more challenging than managing the pit in/out process with other enthusiast drivers. This shouldn't be a problem at all. And if is a problem for drivers leaving the track having a problem with folks gridding up, maybe they are too tired and should have pitted earlier anyhow.

[Alan Herod]

First I have to say that I am really impressed with the way that Tom addressed these concerns. It was good of Rick to begin this discussion. I have also instructed for both the aforementioned NNJR and Schattenbaum. The bottom line last year was 'MAXIMIZE TRACK TIME', another charter that we have is to maximize member participation and we have 2000 members.

This is a very interesting discussion and one which has been raging for some time and not just here. About four years ago I was part of another group whose purpose was to collect information and come up with plans to improve programs. I followed up with CI's and chair persons from different venues about the country. Track time is always an issue. Last year we were hammered for not providing enough track time and compared to these groups that were providing 'five or six, 25-30 minute sessions', so we made every effort to come up with a solution to maximize the amount of track time without worrying about the time between sessions. For comparison 20 minute sessions provide 20 minutes less time between their respective run sessions when running 25 minute sessions.

For what its worth, I am probably a proponent of more shorter sessions, but that is strictly venue dependent and I cannot imagine that anyone would want to run 20 minute sessions at WG or VIR. SC shorter sessions make sense for instructors stomachs. I had multiple students at NNJRs events - I can't remember if that was how I was scheduled or whether it was because of student requests. Thank goodness the sessions weren't that long. At our last event at the SC I ended up substituting for some other instructors that were having inner ear problems. Fortunately, I was wearing the patch that day. Exhaustion, motion sickness, and track time is not something we take lightly.

One of the most creative proposed solutions that came from my research was to raise or change the rate structure so that instructed drivers paid the most, non-instructor (White, Black, and Red) would pay less, and instructors would pay the lowest rate. In some regions instructors do not pay at all. FATT uses an approach where students pay ($225/day) and instructors are free (only two sessions). Some successful programs use an approach that is even more expensive, but they provide a catered lunch. Higher rates have the benefit of increasing track time by limiting participation: but it is not consistent with our goal to maximize PCA member participation.

Tom has very adequately and patiently answered many of the questions as well as presenting how we arrived at our present schedule. As Tom mentioned, we must be responsive to the desires of our customers and we are certainly not tied to the idea of three run groups. Someone suggested the idea of surveying the group this weekend to determine what the overall customer base wants and I think that is a great idea although the survey would have to carefully crafted to avoid injecting biases into the questions.

The idea of rolling changes is another subject which I have discussed with the committee several times. Last year I approached track management and Jason with the concept. Neither he nor Elizabeth (who administers FATT) was in favor of it and cited a number of safety concerns. The NASA type is a different idea all together. Some tracks are better set up for these type of changeovers -- Watkins Glen immediately comes to mind.

Most of you have expressed your opinions and preferences to me over the last few years, and generally I take time at tech inspections to collect feedback and requests from participants. At the track is another story, I hear these complaints about having to sit around for a long time between run groups. When I was a participant that gave me time to hang out with friends, bench racing, and tweaking, adjusting, or repairing the car. This weekend you will know where to find me, and perhaps we should raise the question in the meetings, not for debate, but so that others who are not privy to this exchange will have a chance to 'vote'.

Hopefully I am not adding fuel to a fire that has been put out. Perhaps you should consider that I am the bad cop and Tom is the good cop.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by Alan Herod

SC shorter sessions make sense for instructors stomachs. I had multiple students at NNJRs events - I can't remember if that was how I was scheduled or whether it was because of student requests.

Not to derail this thread, but:
Alan -
I was one of the folks that requested you ride with me at the NNJR SC event. (Pink run group - Red 944S2 with a sloppy stock suspension). Though I am certain you were tired by the end of the day, I appreciate your willingness to volunteer to help me with the line - thank you. As I recall, you didn't drive at all during the NNJR Shenandoah DE - yet you offered to help instruct us 'northerners' on this very techincal track. I wasn't "assigned" to you - yet you were willing to ride with me. That's what the true spirit of instructing is about, IMHO.

Getting back on track - (pun intended) - regarding 'rolling starts' at some tracks, it definately helps save some time - at The Glen, VIR for example. However, at shorter track, like Lime Rock - there really isn't much benefit - you might as well wait until the last car from the previous run group is coming down diving turn before you release the next session out on the track.

Releasing a black/red run group while a green run group is taking their cool down lap can be an issue, since the pace of the warm up lap of the upper run groups are significantly faster than the cool-down laps of the lower run groups. Let the 'big boys' out too early, and they'll easily catch up with the greenies taking their cool down lap. This can cause a potential safety issue, IMHO. Not sure what a 'beltway incident' is, but that's probably what can happen - sure, the first 'upper run group' driver can easily spot the tail of the cool down greenies, and be able to slow down - but what about the rest of the pack? Can you imagine what could happen coming out of the carousel at SC and meeting up with a bunch of slower cars?

So regardnig rolling starts - it depends on the track, as well as the order of run groups.

Just my $0.42,
-Z.

PS: Does Jason lurk here, BTW? Just curious...

[Alan Herod]

Z-man -- thanks for the comments -- I did not consider you one of my students although I did appreciate the ride. I performed a number of those, but I can't remember whether I ended up with one or two assigned students.

As for Jason, if you mean the Jason as the point man for the track, then I don't think so -- he may hang-out at corner carvers or something like that, but I have not been there for a while.