[forklift]

I have been meaning to do this for a long time, but just got to it. It looks like we can hold 9-5 perfectly with the hour lunch and the two ten minute breaks with four run groups. Hot pulls would be needed, but I think everyone can handle that. It only makes sense to use a warm up the same time as there is a cool down going on. NASA does it and I have never seen any problems. I would still be in favor for 20 min sessions at VIR which should give most 7-8 laps, 5-6 hot as it breaks the day up better and lowers the fatigue factor. I might have made a mistake and missed something, but I think it is right. As an instructor for NASA (3 sessions/?groups), BSR (4 sessions/4groups) and Mazda (4 sessions/4groups) where you have two students (and you are busy!), I think PCA instructors should be able to handle one student for four sessions.

White: 9:00-9:20
Red: 9:20-9:40
Black: 9:40-10:00
Break: 10:00-10:10
Blue: 10:10-10:30
Green: 10:30-10:50
White: 10:50-11:10
Red: 11:10-11:30
Black: 11:30-11:50
Lunch: 11:50-12:50
Blue: 12:50-1:10
Green: 1:10-1:30
White: 1:30-1:50
Red: 1:50-2:10
Black: 2:10-2:30
Break: 2:30-2:40
Blue: 2:40-3:00
Green: 3:00-3:20
White: 3:20-3:40
Red: 3:40-4:00
Black: 4:00-4:20
Blue: 4:20-4:40
Green: 4:40-5:00

[BlackTalon]

That's pretty much the schedule they used to use when they did 4 sessions per day. That's how it was until 2 years ago.

[BillJ]

Originally Posted by forklift

I have been meaning to do this for a long time, but just got to it. It looks like we can hold 9-5 perfectly with the hour lunch and the two ten minute breaks with four run groups. Hot pulls would be needed, but I think everyone can handle that. It only makes sense to use a warm up the same time as there is a cool down going on. NASA does it and I have never seen any problems. I would still be in favor for 20 min sessions at VIR which should give most 7-8 laps, 5-6 hot as it breaks the day up better and lowers the fatigue factor. I might have made a mistake and missed something, but I think it is right. As an instructor for NASA (3 sessions/?groups), BSR (4 sessions/4groups) and Mazda (4 sessions/4groups) where you have two students (and you are busy!), I think PCA instructors should be able to handle one student for four sessions.

White: 9:00-9:20
Red: 9:20-9:40
Black: 9:40-10:00
Break: 10:00-10:10
Blue: 10:10-10:30
Green: 10:30-10:50
White: 10:50-11:10
Red: 11:10-11:30
Black: 11:30-11:50
Lunch: 11:50-12:50
Blue: 12:50-1:10
Green: 1:10-1:30
White: 1:30-1:50
Red: 1:50-2:10
Black: 2:10-2:30
Break: 2:30-2:40
Blue: 2:40-3:00
Green: 3:00-3:20
White: 3:20-3:40
Red: 3:40-4:00
Black: 4:00-4:20
Blue: 4:20-4:40
Green: 4:40-5:00

This is a good cut and looks just like what we had. Only problem is the blue and green run groups following each other, provided instructors have two students. Do not believe that we have that situation with the large number of instructors we have in the corps. So, why not?

[ttrew]

Hot pulls are not something that we will be doing at Summit, at least not with the current setup. The track supplies the truck, but it is me, Alan, and Mike that run it. While we are highly trained professionals, sometimes it seems more like the three stooges out there, and in many places we have to cross the track to get back to the paddock. I am not about to fumble around out there with hot cars on track. Some of the other tracks supply tow operators, but their insurance may not allow hot pulls.

The reality is generally the big time killer is not scrambling the truck anyway, that takes 10 minutes. It is resetting the tire walls or sweeping debris off the track, or spreading kitty litter that eats up the time. To do those things, you have to stop the session anyway, so a hot pull would not buy us much.

As to Todd's comment about not penalizing the group, it is not so much penalizing as it is determining where to make up the time. If someone in Red goes off and clouts the tires, should you drivers in White lose as much time as Red does? Do you want your run session cut in half so that Red can get some more time out there? If so, we will be happy to accomodate.

Yes, you can easily fit 4 - 20 minutes sessions in a day, I don't think I ever said that was not the case. The math is easy, there is 80 minutes of track time available, divide it how you like. The point is that a 20 minute session is not 20 minutes of track time. With a 2 minute swap over, and two minute warm up and cool down laps, a "20 minute" session is 14 minutes of at-speed track time. The goal should be to maximize that, not just time tooling around waiting for the tires to heat or the brakes to cool. The simple fact is the fewer run sessions per day we run, the more "at speed" track time you get.

[TD in DC]

Originally Posted by ttrew

As to Todd's comment about not penalizing the group, it is not so much penalizing as it is determining where to make up the time. If someone in Red goes off and clouts the tires, should you drivers in White lose as much time as Red does? Do you want your run session cut in half so that Red can get some more time out there? If so, we will be happy to accomodate.

OK. I understand. So long as the time is removed from whatever run group I am not in, I am fine.

[Don Wohlfarth]

Originally Posted by ttrew

We have tried in the past to penalize the group in which the event happened more than the other groups. Using peer pressure to keep drivers on the track. We will also try to reset the run sessions so that no one is penalized excessively.
Tom

"Penalize" was possibly the wrong word. The idea is some run groups get a little frisky and it sometimes leads to a lengthy down time which can have an impact on the other run groups. I don't believe anyone is trying to unfairly penalize any run group.
Sooner or later all of us will be at a de and in the middle of the day everything comes to a halt because the chief instructor has called a mandatory drivers meeting. The topic is usually driver behavior that has caused sometype of incident.
That's where the peer pressure comes in. When a driver in your group does something questionable ask him about it. No one likes their run session cut short and they like it even less when the prior incident was in another run group.

[CrewChief]

Originally Posted by forklift

I have been meaning to do this for a long time, but just got to it. It looks like we can hold 9-5 perfectly with the hour lunch and the two ten minute breaks with four run groups. Hot pulls would be needed, but I think everyone can handle that. It only makes sense to use a warm up the same time as there is a cool down going on. NASA does it and I have never seen any problems. I would still be in favor for 20 min sessions at VIR which should give most 7-8 laps, 5-6 hot as it breaks the day up better and lowers the fatigue factor. I might have made a mistake and missed something, but I think it is right. As an instructor for NASA (3 sessions/?groups), BSR (4 sessions/4groups) and Mazda (4 sessions/4groups) where you have two students (and you are busy!), I think PCA instructors should be able to handle one student for four sessions.

Jim, NASA has a complete traveling track crew integral to the operation. They don't use the BSR truck and they work together all the time. While at first blush it sounds attractive I don't think hot pulls with us doing the pulls and BSR flaggers is the way to go. Ask Elizabeth if we're going to do hot pulls at FATT anytime soon!?

[racer]

Why are warm up and cool down laps seemingly penalized? By this I mean, an argument being made is that you loose time to these two functions. Warm Up and Cool Down. I have to believe that every student, solo and instructor takes advantage of this time for those very reasons. I don't view these laps as "cheating me of track time". I need to do it no matter how long a run group is. As an instructor I stress to my student the need to drive the exact same line, check mirrors etc as during a "hot lap". The only difference is the speed carried during these laps.

As an instructor, I sometimes find it difficult to keep my own attention, let alone my students', to be on top my game for 30 minutes, especially during 90+ degree summer days! It can get boring out there. You can get hot, sick or distracted.I think shorter run groups would prevent this. Also, as a new driver you KNOW you only have "3 times" out on track, you might drive "thru" these conditions to the danger of others sharing the track with you just so you don't miss a run group.

I also think that more frequent run groups enhances learning. If I have to wait 2-3 HOURS between run groups, how will my learning progress? If I am not encouraged to ride with an instructor in his or other groups, how does my learning progress? Many green students spend at least the first 1/2 if not more of their second run group re-learning what they were shown the first time out.

While comparing a NNJR or Schattenbaum SP event to a Potomac event is apples to oranges, it does nothing to encourage local members to run in Potomac PCA events when the track time advantages of running with another region are so tangible. When Art asks in his Der Vorganger column for us to sell the club to new members, we must sometime remember that our main competition is ourselves (other regions) and if we want to maintain our own numbers, we should be willing to listen to the criticisms and praise of our OWN participants.

Oh and the "veiled" penalty and peer pressure tactics are only used on the White group. We all know they make the most mistakes

Would I "put up" with 4 18-20 minute sessions instead of 3 30min sessions. Yes.


On a similar topic, why does Potomac PCA allow 10 minutes for an instructor to come "off track, pit, and find their student". SP isn't that big! An instuctor could always ask a student to meet them near "their" car. Plus, I would think as an instructor, you would be aware of your own run group time and perhaps "give up" a lap from your group to meet a student "on time".

Great discussion. Hope to hear more feedback from those who put together the events. I tried to start a similar post on Potomac Talk, but only about 6 people replied.

[ttrew]

No intent to "penalize" warm up laps. I agree that they are good times for a student to imprint the correct line. A good instructor will take full advantage of this. This whole post related to maximizing track time though, I suspect that is what the original poster had in mind rather than maximizing his warm up lap opportuities.

You may think of the other regions as our competition, but I don't. They are other opportunities to get to the track, and they are part of the same club. Many of us run with other regions in addition to Potomac. No problem with that.

[racer]

Originally Posted by ttrew

You may think of the other regions as our competition, but I don't. They are other opportunities to get to the track, and they are part of the same club. Many of us run with other regions in addition to Potomac. No problem with that.

I agree and take advantage of running with other regions when I can. Sometimes due to a scheduling conflict, sometimes due to liking how a region may run their events. But to not think of them as "competition" might be a mistake. I say that only in the context of wanting to keep active members happy. If I can only go to 2-3 events per year, and if the "rumor" is that Potomac PCA at SP gives me 3 run sessions, but a visiting region gives me 4 or 5 run sessions with fewer cars, I would be more inclined to maximize my track $$ and run with another region.

Just something to think about.