[BMAN]

Originally Posted by old worker

lot of conversation on this....

I've tried to resist commenting but...

I might be wrong and apologize if I am, but didn't you imply in a national magazine that your wake up call for changes in track day safety was due to PCA's decision to allow open passing because you felt PCA was more motivated by money (more drivers) than safety? If so, that was both irresponsible and insulting to the thousands of generous and well intentioned people that donate their time to this sport and club. You seemingly have other motivations causing you to besmirch PCA under the guise of benevolence.

Sad because I am actively engaged in progressing safety and consistency in this sport too.

[old worker]

This is a very complicated conversation. where there are at least two schools. I too am a long time PCA member. Had I to do over again would not have referred to PCA , I recognized my mistake. Since that article I have tied very hard to use "club" when I disagree. I don't use members names nor do I disclose any names without permission.

Not I not sure I would call HPDE a sport.... more of a hobby?

[John Clay]

Motorsport Safety Foundation is setup as a nonprofit, so if that's the organization running this thing you so you should be able to see where the money is going. Their 2015 990 is publicly available, don't see a 2016 yet.

[Der ABT]

What if your not old enough to be called a grandfather, is there like a good driver discount, groupon, or retailmenot coupon to get a free DE?

Or how will they police fake stickers?

[HughA44s]

Hate to jump in here after that exchange but I did want to address the following quote:

“Use of a standard evaluation system (like drivingevals.com) is very helpful especially when we can share information (standard objectives and metrics) across the various clubs in the area that do use it for evaluating students and instructors.”

The issue with this system is that although the Criteria are consistent across the board the human/instructor’s evaluation against them are not and in particular are subject to emotion and bias. I honestly believe I got caught in this awhile back with an instructor. Yes, this was a difficult event for me as it was trying to snow and it was my first time on track tires (and I missed the first day because of car issues) but basically I drove the exact line that I was previously taught – except this instructor took great exception to it, and worked his agenda with the event organizers. I tried to talk to him but he would have nothing to do with it. I ended up with a bad eval and now was in the position of having to expunge my record for a year or so. I could see this was happening because of the initial reaction of the instructors in the following events which I was able to change.

Now, anticipating a response, I did not feel like debating this in the eval system for concern over future repercussions.

Now I feel the more humanistic approach of “I know you” or “I don’t know you so let’s see what you got” taken by (at least from my observation point) PCA, BMW CCA, and Audi (at least from my experience) is the way to go. If you have people complain then there is a data point to deal with. There is always a check ride to sort it out. It is my observation that this approach is more broadly implemented by the BMW CCA over multiple regions and they seem to keep records and evals on students in a more organized fashion. Having said that, the approach is basically the same.

Extending this, what I feel is a flawed system (consistent criteria giving the impression of consistent evaluations and certifications) to instructors is a mistake in my opinion.

[Manny Alban]

Interesting that their 'advisory board' has no one from PCA, BMWCCA, NASA or SCCA's club current management.

I wonder when's the last time any one of these guys actually instructed or participated in a HPDC?

[Der ABT]

Originally Posted by BMAN

I've tried to resist commenting but...

I might be wrong and apologize if I am, but didn't you imply in a national magazine that your wake up call for changes in track day safety was due to PCA's decision to allow open passing because you felt PCA was more motivated by money (more drivers) than safety? If so, that was both irresponsible and insulting to the thousands of generous and well intentioned people that donate their time to this sport and club. You seemingly have other motivations causing you to besmirch PCA under the guise of benevolence.

Sad because I am actively engaged in progressing safety and consistency in this sport too.

Wait open passing is a great improvement........no more frustration behind a train waiting for a straight, you learn how to control your car off line at entry mid corner and exit....how to work together to keep the flow of the track going..........it opens a whole new set of skills that make you a more capable and therefore safer driver that was not easily replicated without open passing

Car prep and diver mentality have waaaaaay more to do with safety........
Most racers who go to a DE don't come close to race speeds because they are aware of the group around them despite being capable of going faster....

I think the program has a interesting idea but not buying into the approach as set out

[N0tt0N]

Huh, I commented initially because I agree in general it might be a good thing, just not something PCA really needed. Of course I also believe paying a Little Taxes To Help The Whole. I guess the Devil is always in the details.

I didn't realize the hidden agenda expressed in the article, the silver bullet political charlatan innuendo completely unsupported by actual fact. I do not warm to twisted logic that calls out a specific organization as guilty based on the 'obvious general facts that everyone knows' that simply are not true, and tidely wrap that turd up in a vote for me or you're part of the problem.

Based on what I now understand I suggest you keep your mouth shut and go fix your own poorly run chapter of your 'example' club instead of grandstanding as the Universal Solution to everyone else's problem. That's some balls and they smell. You might want to look into that.

I wouldn't recommend trolling a local board made up of members of two of the best club chapters that are successfully addressing most of the issues you appear to be concerned about and struggling, through hard work, to address the more intractable ones. What an insult.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...-speed-limits/

[HughA44s]

I, for one, am still a bit unclear on how NOTTON feels about this issue. Perhaps he needs to come out of his shell ....

[BlackTalon]