[N0tt0N]

Apparently it is not a sport....

[deutschkar]

Originally Posted by old worker

lot of conversation on this.... I have read over the responses so far....getting instructors out of cars maybe coming.... saving a few dollars to instruct seems to be under the microscope, why?....we all read about the deaths....but no one reads about the injuries. Those incident reports are not shared.

A couple of sites on this subject.
ttp://www.motorsport-safety.org/initiatives/certified
http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...finally-begun/

http://www.roadraceautox.com/showthr...cation-program

I don't appreciate how you are peddling this as scuttlebutt and the reality is you are disguising the fact that you are leading this attack on PCA and other good organizations. You have chosen the wrong audience and I have zero interest in your agenda.

[DaveInMD]

Originally Posted by old worker

lot of conversation on this.... I have read over the responses so far....getting instructors out of cars maybe coming.... saving a few dollars to instruct seems to be under the microscope, why?....we all read about the deaths....but no one reads about the injuries. Those incident reports are not shared.

Honestly, I don't take the time to comment on much here but your comments are so missing the point. As a risk manager I just couldn't help myself.

First, if you were doing this just to save a few bucks, you should have stayed out of the right seat from the beginning. The pay rate for the effort is woefully inadequate and the focus should be on helping others improve their skills as the reward. I like the term pay it forward.

As an IT risk management professional, the culture of check the box, get a certification, and assessing performance based on the news media coverage of negative events has a long history of producing new rules and costs that are not an improvement and are often simply a hinderance to real progress. There is a "lot of conversation" and most of it is like this rather than a sane assessment of risk vectors and effective mitigants.

There is data. The insurance companies who cover this activity are very aware of the financial costs derived from the negative events. All of the probable outcomes will happen eventually. And some of the risk vectors result in significant injury and death - just like driving on the highway. I find it interesting that insurance for these events is less expensive than my monthly cost for driving the car on the open road. That analytic data certainly drives my sense that the track is the statistically safer place.

Time will tell, but this certainly smells of many of the IT certifications where you go to a week long class where they give you information to pass the test, pay the $2500, and get a piece of paper that says you're an expert. Then find someone, who is simply reacting to news reports that are trying to draw an audience to drive ad revenue, to hire you.

Focus on the data, continuously work to improve the outcomes, and measure the impact. PCA seems to be doing this pretty well from my view. Getting yourself on TV, posting negative comments on an online forum or in a magazine saying negative things really isn't very helpful toward rational decisioning.

Thanks for your time. Rant over. See you at the track.

[racer]

I remember when DE was fun. Certification is never fun.

[joep]

Originally Posted by N0tt0N

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...-speed-limits/

I don't feel qualified to really take a position on this topic, but in this article I found this statement to be fairly striking and I think it would be a mistake for the community to overlook the point out of spite for the author. Public perception can be a powerful force slow to move, and even more difficult to stop once in motion.

These ideas --- lowering speeds at trackdays, increasing the barriers to participation --- aren't going to be popular with everyone. Mark my words, though: If we, as a community of trackday drivers and instructors, don't start looking seriously at ways to reduce the risk, these decisions are going to be taken out of our hands and put in the hands of others. Lawmakers, attorneys, trial judges, and the non-enthusiast public. So let's start looking at getting our house in order, before someone decides to put it in order for us.

[deutschkar]

If we, as a community of trackday drivers and instructors, don't start looking seriously at ways to reduce the risk, these decisions are going to be taken out of our hands and put in the hands of others

Fear mongering for profit

[N0tt0N]

Originally Posted by joep

I found this statement to be fairly striking and I think it would be a mistake for the community to overlook the point out of spite for the author.

The posts here agree with you. The point is striking but made in a defamatory manner that scapegoats the entire PCA as the root cause. Especially since the PCA, Potomac in particular, is one of the few organizations that are actually addressing the real point.

It is not being overlooked by the community it is already being talked about constantly. It is just being portrayed that way by the author to advance another, less effective and unproven solution. I'm just surprised the first one isn't free.

I'd rather be a part of an actual solution, hence my membership in PCAP, than be part of the window dressing. Especially when window dressing like certifications (for a hobby no less) usually wind up extending to the rug and walls soon enough.

Don't you think sharing actual facts would serve the public perception more than a sticker? I hadn't thought about the insurance cost incorporating the actual data already. That is a brilliant insight. Underwriters don't give a fuch about perception - they look at the data. Since I can afford it it is clear the facts do not support the fear.

Yes I fear the aliens trying to board the ship. No I will not open the airlock because the sketchy supply clerk says it will show good faith despite what the Captain says. I've seen this movie.

No-sir-ee, I'm just going to do exactly what the CIs tell me to do... Wait a second... I see what you did there... Sigh

[Dr K]

Another point about our LOCAL clubs: how many clubs nationwide are chipping in as PCA-P and SCCA-NCR are to provide safety upgrades to their home track? I'm very proud to be part of PCA and our region in particular (and did undergo a training program for national certification as an instructor - and the training has improved since I did it).

[BlackTalon]

Frankly I am not sure why any of you are posting here, because I have not certified any of you as approved Level 1 or above Dorki-posters.

The webinar training sessions start in two weeks, and Level 1 will focus on how to post remotely from your computer, so you do not actually have to endanger yourself by being inside Dorkiphus. But the more advanced of you will, in fact, be able to obtain certifications to get inside.

I will post a PayPal account address where you can send your certificate fee uhm funds to cover the rigorous program we have been developing.

[Vicegrip]

Will there be stickers?