[ItalyChicken]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

If you ever end up on the stand in a trial after shooting an intruder, you have a bad lawyer and/or you ran your mouth to the cops. You should never ever have a conversation with a prosecutor, neither in private, nor in court. You don't owe anyone an explanation after the cops find a dead stranger in your house with signs of forced entry. Keep your mouth shut and let them figure it out.

This is also important, but if you used a round like the above/RIP and stayed quiet as you should, they'll be sure to bring up why the wound(s) were so much more destructive than a normal FMJ/JHP from the autopsy report.

[Vicegrip]

Originally Posted by Ebola

The argument isnt the effectiveness of the round against a "deer," the issue is what happens in court when you kill an intruder in your house with such a round. Especially when your jury is likely not knowledge, and likely anti gun to begin with.

Prosecutor: So what was the ammunition you used?
You: <above/RIP>
Prosecutor: Whyd you use ammo that was specifically designed to do such excessive damage when a standard load possibly wouldnt have killed the intruder?
You: Well its because I wanted to use an effective load
Prosecutor: Does law enforcement use this round?
You: No
Prosecutor: So you needed something more "effective" than what police officers use? You intended to kill and be more deadly than a police officer? You used a load with the intent not to stop, but kill?

God forbid the intruder doesnt have a firearm, and you just "killed an unarmed civilian" with a super-lethal round. Using loads like RIP or the style above, a prosecutor can easily make you look like a crazy redneck just waiting for someone to stumble into your house so you had an excuse to kill them. If someone broke into your house and you so much as went downstairs and happened to kill them, that would likely be enough to get you labeled as a human hunter who wasnt defending themselves because at that point you were actively looking for trouble. In a perfect world what you shoudlve done is stay in your room and if they come, announce you have a gun and for them not to come in. Whatever they decided to steal is irrelevant because your life wasnt at stake; just your personal belongings which could be replaced through insurance. Lay on an emotional testimony by the mom/wife/girlfriend, and your likely unemphatic testimony of "yeah I killed him," and theres a case stacked against you even though you and I both feel like you were in the right.

Im not saying thats exactly how I would act being put in that situation, and maybe a little different if you have loved ones in the other rooms, but its not hard for a half decent prosecutor to make you look like a crazy human hunter that was just waiting for the opportunity to kill someone especially when youre using an unusual, specialty, lethally crafted round which is the last thing you want a jury thinking. This is the same argument for not using hand-loads for carry/defense. Id rather leave the entire argument for someone else to have in court and use a just as effective round that is used by law enforcement.

Um. Yes^ this was the entire point of my last post. The round is likely a better round but as I noted I use stock standard off the shelf stuff that the rest use including LEOs.

I want a round that stops in the first thing it hits.

This also highlights another point. It is FAR better to not get into a situation where a gun called for and far better not to use a gun when one is not needed. A gun might make you feel better but for most it produces unintended unwanted outcomes in the long run.

[Trak Ratt]

^ X2, the rest is good info but if you aren't aware of it going in then you are prolly only going to hit wall, floor, ceiling anyway

Hopefully most give this some thought before deciding to even own a gun. My intent was to see if anyone else had heard or used the round before. I haven't nor am likely to spring for any.

Many years ago I got a hold of some armor piecing Soviet bock ammo. Ran a few rounds through my SKS carbine and was amassed at the damage it could do to a log back drop. Best example of over penetration AND the difference between "cover" and "concealment."


IBTW, 'm partial to silver tips for Pistol and revolver.

[smdubovsky]

This has been posted on other (gun) forums I've read. No one has been able to post a case where the type of ammo (or type of gun!) used contributed to a sentence. Seems to be an old wive's tale. If you pulled the trigger you must typ show that use of deadly force was justified. Once you are over proving that hurdle the actual method seems immaterial.

Edit: What a couple people seem to be missing who didn't search for more info (likely just due to the look of this round) is that is a *12ga SLUG*. It is HUGE. Makes even a 45 look like a 22LR in comparison.

[Vicegrip]

Originally Posted by smdubovsky

This has been posted on other (gun) forums I've read. No one has been able to post a case where the type of ammo (or type of gun!) used contributed to a sentence. Seems to be an old wive's tale. If you pulled the trigger you must typ show that use of deadly force was justified. Once you are over proving that hurdle the actual method seems immaterial.

Edit: What a couple people seem to be missing who didn't search for more info (likely just due to the look of this round) is that is a *12ga SLUG*. It is HUGE. Makes even a 45 look like a 22LR in comparison.

Add in the distinctive sound of a pump shotgun being cycled alone can loosen bowls and stop aggression.

"shoot to wound" and "safe" ammo does not exist. Looks to me that it is well established that using a firearm = lethal force. You ether are legal to do so or not.

[Trak Ratt]

It took a couple of quarts of cleaner, and most of the afternoon but all are finally clean!!!

[Dr K]

Oooo. You got a new couch!

[Vicegrip]

Originally Posted by Trak Ratt

It took a couple of quarts of cleaner, and most of the afternoon but all are finally clean!!!

Attachment 50042

Not fooling me brother. Those are just the grab guns you stash around the living room. How about getting to the rest? And back row 5th from the right is looking a bit dry.

[onboost]

Originally Posted by smdubovsky

Edit: What a couple people seem to be missing who didn't search for more info (likely just due to the look of this round) is that is a *12ga SLUG*. It is HUGE. Makes even a 45 look like a 22LR in comparison.

Originally Posted by Vicegrip

Add in the distinctive sound of a pump shotgun being cycled alone can loosen bowls and stop aggression.

"shoot to wound" and "safe" ammo does not exist. Looks to me that it is well established that using a firearm = lethal force. You ether are legal to do so or not.

Ummm, yeah.. that's where my thoughts would be.

[onboost]

And if a good ol' pump action 500 series Mossberg doesn't do it for you, how bout a modified Saiga 12?

Ok, maybe a little cumbersome for home defense, but it sure looks cool.