[RENN 951]

Originally Posted by BlackTalon

Who on earth would have the time/ resources to compile all of that?

Originally Posted by Irfan

If organizations aren't collecting that sort of data, they should be, because the value of safety programs has to be judged based on empirical data.

if I hear that people tend to crash more often at T9 of WG, I'll slow down there and apex later. And if I hear that a particular track has a higher accident rate, I might still go there, but will dial it back to be safer.

PCAP has included information in the mandatory Safety briefings the last few years on numbers of incidents by track, turn and run group for PCAP - which has been enlightening for the reasons Irfan states. But as noted by DD, don't expect any comprehensive nation-wide database statistical compilation because no one has the time or accurate information to do that, and in any event the standards and record-keeping by each club/region are not consistent.

The PCAP info is excellent; you should be able to learn what you need from that without worrying about comparisons with Track Daze, NASA, FATT or BMW.

[BlackTalon]

I will go one step further. Irfan, you should contact Dan, and offer your services to the DE safety program. You have a good background, so it would be a great place for you to volunteer. You may have ideas for expanding the data collection or coming up with new ways to analyze it. You can see firsthand what data PCAP already has, and come up with ways to improve upon it.

Of course this all goes out the window once the discussion changes to real racing!

[CanAm]

Originally Posted by BlackTalon

Many of the clubs DO collect their own data, but not all to the level you are hoping. So what organization should be tasked with collecting full, comprehensive data from any and all clubs who run DEs? We gonna mandate a new gubberment agency? Neither FHWA nor DOT oversee privately owned tracks. And who determines if Group 1B from BSR's FATT program = Blue Group from PCA Potomac and xxx group from NASA? Who funds the data collection and analysis portion of this endevour? And who distributes/ hosts the data?

PCAP has their data, and the Safety Officer usually presents it once or twice a year to the particpants at DEs. It's broken down by tracks, run groups and turns. But there are more influencing variables there that become apparant once a dialog starts. If you send a nice email to the current Safety Officer (Dan Dazzo), I'll bet he would be willing to share the last round of data analysis with you.

Who knows. What are you measuring against? Total track minutes? Average speeds? Somehow taking into account track loading? How are you accounting for weather, which can have a huge impact on the number of incidents in a weekend? PCAP's 'higher safety standards' tend to be more stringent tech requirements, lighter loading in novice run groups, and more time w/ an instructor in the car with you. Some items there are hard to cross-compare just looking at how may offs a certain run group had at a certain track.

As an engineer, I would think you would be more interested in knowing WHY people tend to crash there, and then figure out how to manage that risk. Not sure simply 'dialing it back' is always the answer. Maybe they turn in too early. Maybe they lift off the throttle when they should not. But rest assured, many others have figured out how they CAN take that turn without dialing it back nearly as much, and if you puss out too much in front of one of them you could royally fuch them up.

Ohhhhkay, and...???? Forensic investigation is very open-ended there... Not sure if this is meant as an explanation for all your over-analysis, or a way of saying you know what the real deal is while others do not? FWIW, I'm a civil/ structural engineer, and I do a lot of 'forensic investigation'. But I'm not really sure what that adds to this discussion so I did not mention it earlier.

Look, you are still new enough at this that you have a ton of questions and are still trying to figure out a lot of things. It's natural, but kinda easy to get too extreme with it. Not many who attack it at the level you are attempting actually stick with it for more then a couple seasons. There is a danger in over-thinking things. Honestly, these DE programs have been around for many years, and continue to improve year by year. Focus on learning to read/ feel the car and learning how to stay ahead of it, and how to react to emergencies. That is what will make you a good driver and enable you to minimize risk. And if you are adverse to risk, you really should think twice about sticking with this hobby, as no matter how careful you are, you will at some point find yourself in an emergency situation due to a mechanical failure or due to someone else's actions. And all the track analysis in the world will not be able to help you -- you will need to rely on a different skill set.

Good info, thanks.

I'm not necessarily seeking extensive data and analysis, but it would nice to generally know if DEs are 'safer than driving on the road', 'almost as safe as driving on the road', 'only 3x riskier than driving on the road', 'safer than rock climbing', etc.

I wasn't aware that PCAP provides that specific data (which is very much what I'm looking for), and I do think I'll ask for it.

And yes, I'm interested in both incident rates and contributing factors (the forensic investigation part). I mentioned my background to give some context for why I'm asking the question and approaching it the way I am. Given that we're in the same field in the same region, I'm a little surprised that we haven't crossed paths yet.

Only time will tell how long I stick with it, but I'm loving it so far and have no plans to quit. Even club racing is a possibility.

As far as overthinking, I have to disagree. I have no doubt that my analysis of my driving has improved my driving and accelerated my progress. That's not to say that driving skill can be acquired on an armchair basis any more than tennis or musical skill, but it helps. Why did the car rotate the way it did? Why did it turn in better that time? Why did I get so much understeer there and how can I reduce it? Exploring such questions has shed much light for me, and likely [helped me] prevent and prepare for emergencies. My advice as a student: don't discourage students from thinking about what they're doing, as a supplement to (not replacement for) track time.

[CanAm]

Originally Posted by BlackTalon

I will go one step further. Irfan, you should contact Dan, and offer your services to the DE safety program. You have a good background, so it would be a great place for you to volunteer. You may have ideas for expanding the data collection or coming up with new ways to analyze it. You can see firsthand what data PCAP already has, and come up with ways to improve upon it.

Of course this all goes out the window once the discussion changes to real racing!

Believe it or not, I've been thinking about that, and will likely volunteer to do so. It's probably the area in which I can best contribute.

Agreed that racing is a different story, but there's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...atal_accidents. Huge gains in safety, once they got serious about it. Unfortunately, many had to die first.

[Dr K]

Send your dad in for an appointment (office phone 301-493-5210). I'll talk with him about DEs while he's learning there are other things to worry about more than a son driving on the track...

[BlackTalon]

Originally Posted by Irfan

...does anyone have any actual data on accident, injury, and fatality rates, ideally broken down based on specific tracks, run groups, organizations, etc.?

Originally Posted by Irfan

I'm not necessarily seeking extensive data and analysis, but it would nice to generally know if DEs are 'safer than driving on the road', 'almost as safe as driving on the road', 'only 3x riskier than driving on the road', 'safer than rock climbing', etc.

Hmmm, now you have me confused

Best thing you can do at this point is get the basic info from PCAP, then do you best to extend it to 'per track mile driven', and then compare that with a highway statistic.

I fear you are hoping to hear "1 out of every x DE participants will get harmed physically, and possibly die", but I doubt that info exists.

There are so few incidents of serious injury that they are memorable. PCAP probably experiences only 1 every 4-5 seasons. And on a nationwide basis, I've only every heard about one death at a PCA DE over the last ~12 years. But when you try and figure how many participants, good luck comparing that to the # of people who get seriously hurt rock climbing. And any injury stats that are available are probably not very accurate, as who determines what is a serious injury? (the death one is a little easier...).

Anyway, tell your pops that only one participant has died due to a DE wreck at a PCA event in the last 5+ years, so DEs are way, way safer then driving on the street, as I believe a lot more people have died in accidents on the streets or highways. Oh, did you want to break it down by mile driven? Find a way to back out the passenger injuries/ deaths, so it is more apples-to-apples? I guess you can massage the stats however you like to find a way to back up the point you want to support. And here in the DC area there is no shortage of those you can hire to spin for you

[CanAm]

Originally Posted by BlackTalon

Hmmm, now you have me confused

Best thing you can do at this point is get the basic info from PCAP, then do you best to extend it to 'per track mile driven', and then compare that with a highway statistic.

I fear you are hoping to hear "1 out of every x DE participants will get harmed physically, and possibly die", but I doubt that info exists.

There are so few incidents of serious injury that they are memorable. PCAP probably experiences only 1 every 4-5 seasons. And on a nationwide basis, I've only every heard about one death at a PCA DE over the last ~12 years. But when you try and figure how many participants, good luck comparing that to the # of people who get seriously hurt rock climbing. And any injury stats that are available are probably not very accurate, as who determines what is a serious injury? (the death one is a little easier...).

Anyway, tell your pops that only one participant has died due to a DE wreck at a PCA event in the last 5+ years, so DEs are way, way safer then driving on the street, as I believe a lot more people have died in accidents on the streets or highways. Oh, did you want to break it down by mile driven? Find a way to back out the passenger injuries/ deaths, so it is more apples-to-apples? I guess you can massage the stats however you like to find a way to back up the point you want to support. And here in the DC area there is no shortage of those you can hire to spin for you

Nothing to be confused about, you and others have effectively answered my legitimate question. Answers, as I understand them:

- The likelihood of getting killed at a DE is close to zero. But it has happened, so no one should entirely disregard the possibility.

- The likelihood of getting injured is somewhat higher, but still very low.

- PCAP has data on safety incidents for particular tracks, turns, and run groups. Maybe this should be provided by email to DE participants before each event for that particular track?

- The primary risk is car damage, which usually runs a few thousand dollars, but it can go higher (cars have been totaled).

- Our own risks can be mitigated to a substantial extent through prudent driving and safety equipment.

- Safety programs should improve safety (as intended), but data may be lacking to compare with one safety program with another (eg, the big differences between PCAP vs TD safety programs, which got me thinking about this). And generally speaking, some caution is needed here, since safety measures can sometimes backfire, such as when people engage in riskier behavior because they perceive a safety measure to be in place.

[CanAm]

Originally Posted by Dr K

Send your dad in for an appointment (office phone 301-493-5210). I'll talk with him about DEs while he's learning there are other things to worry about more than a son driving on the track...

What kind of doc are you?

Best way to ease his worry will probably be to share the info provided in this thread. And frankly, that info helps to ease my own concerns as well. Though safety will always stay at the forefront of my mind, as is emphasized at every DE, and I plan to look into improving my safety equipment. That three-point belt is starting to look inadequate.

[Patrick3000]

Originally Posted by Trak Ratt

Most of our DE "lessons" have been in the $2.5 - $5K range But all were reasonably safe.

Know an instructor that broke his arm (in a couple of places) when his stu rolled her 996
Have a friend that rolled his car bad enough that every panel on the car (including roof) were bent
Another that had his car T-boned by an other in T-2
Seen plenty with backend damage... penty with front end damage... some with both
A couple of fires, some blown engines, bent wheels and brocken windshields


But all drovers and pasengers were resonably "safe"

You forgot the Cayman S on it's roof at the exit of T10 was it last July or two years ago? Both drover and instructor walked with minor issues. He was the fastest guy in the run group right up until...........

[CanAm]

Originally Posted by Patrick3000

You forgot the Cayman S on it's roof at the exit of T10 was it last July or two years ago? Both drover and instructor walked with minor issues. He was the fastest guy in the run group right up until...........

I heard about that incident too, and that the incident ended his hobby. It's always in the back of my mind when I'm at T10, and I've heard of other incidents there too (other flips, going down the main straight backwards). I bet he didn't have a roll bar, and what if the roof had caved?