[BW911]

What's the consensus here on suspension upgrades for a mostly street / sometimes DE Carrera? After watching how much fun Richard's rear suspension work was, I'm starting to think about my own. Specifically, what's the experience with Bilstein Sports v. HDs v. the stock Boge shocks I now have? And would it make sense to put in some stiffer-than-stock torsion bars?

Thanks.

- Bill
'88 Carrera

[Charlie Stylianos]

Bill,

I just completed a complete front end rebuild which included:

Replacing stock Boge with Bilstein HD's
Replacing stock 18MM torsion's with 22mm
New a-arm (welt. street) and sway bar bushings
Turbo tie rods
A-Arm Ball joints
Cleaning/regreasing steering rack

I did ALOT of research prior to deciding on the 22 t-bars and the Bilstein HD's on the front. My main goal, like yours, is a primarily a street driven car with casual DE/Track time. The main differences between the HD's and the Sports is the dampening rate...the sports are stiffer. Others have reported noticable 'head-nod' w/ sports all around. Also, a very stiff or sloppy ride is caused by missmatching shocks with T-bars. T-bars and shocks have to be matched to one another. When researching I found threads talking about re-valving bilstein shocks to match the t-bars, no need here. I spoke to Steve Weiner (sp?) at Rennsport systems regarding re-valving to match and he said the 22 t-bars and the Bilstein HD's are a perfect match. He said the sports in front will work also, but the ride will be stiffer. For the rear, 28's with sports are a good match as well.

I'm not quite sure about the Carrera's but the recommended upgrades for the SC are 21-23 t-bars front with HD's and 27-31 rears w/ sports. I'm going to use the 28's with the sports in the rears, but with your car being a carrera (heavier) and a coupe (mine a targa), mabye 28-29's with sports will be a good match. I'd suggest 22's w/ HD's in the front. Not quite sure w/ the rear.

Opinions on my front set up so far:

The front feels 100% better than before. The front now just soaks up the imperfections, where as before you could feel the chater and looseness in the worn stock components. Much more responsive, tighter and its point and go. T.T. rods took all the slop out of the steering and fresh bushings all around certianly help take the additional slop out and bring everything back together. I can't comment on the merrits of each component as they were all replaced at the same time. The 22's and HD definitely made the ride a bit stiffer, but far from harsh. The front feels like it just soak's up the bumps without transmitting any of that to the driver. It feels a little flatter in the corners, but I really can't comment on the handling as the rear end is still stock....talk about a wierd feeling. When she's all back together, I'll let you take her out and see what you think. I like it so far...I'd call it a firm flat ride, but comfortable to bring the wife along.

[Marc A]

Bill:

John Brady's Carrera has 22mm torsion bars in the front and 29s in the rear. Car drives great. He also has 9" fuchs on the rear which really helps keep the rear in place.

If you are going to replace shocks, go with the Bilsteins if you can. I'm stuck with Konis because of my front struts. Boges are for pleasure riding.

Before putting in the 3.2, I went through the rear suspension and installed 26mm in the rear from a 930. The set up was great until I added the extra weight of the 3.2. I have a set of 28s waiting an afternoon when I'm motovated.

Based on my research, I would not go beyond 22/29 if you want to have an acceptable ride on the road. You might want to talk with Tony, as I think he has a pretty stiff set up.

[BW911]

Wow. Great info. I have already put in the turbo tie rods and am pleased with the results. The replacement shock thing has had me a little confused ... but it sounds like you guys have found it's not too stiff with the HDs. Matching with the torsion bars certainly makes sense. I'd love to get the rear planted on a set of 9'' Fuchs too, but that may have to wait a while.

I may go ahead and put in a strut brace pretty soon. Seems like a fairly easy and cheap mod, and it can't hurt.

- Bill

[Marc A]

Bill:

Not sure what other's think, but on my Targa, the strut brace made a noticable difference.

[Marc A]

Bill:

Not sure what other's think, but on my Targa, the strut brace made a noticable difference.

[Justin Fischer]

I'm going through the same process right now. But I'm changing out the struts because I need the 3.5" bolt spacing for the S-Calipers I'm adding. Through my research I found that the one advantage to the Boge struts is that both Koni and Bilstein make replacement inserts for Boge struts. For some reason you won't find any reference to this in the Pelican catalog, but if you check Tweeks, or Performance Products you will find them.

Justin

[Rick Lee]

Bill, rear shocks install on a Carrera is literally as easy as an oil change. Marc and I did this in about 45 min. and I'm sure I could do it faster with some Pabst in hand. If that's all you're doing, then definitely DIY. Actually, the spring plate job wouldn't have been that bad, had I had the right parts the first time. Now I think I know what I'm doing, but just don't want to deal with it anymore. I just want to drive the damn car.

[APKhaos]

Bill,
Beware the siren sound of the Arms Race.
For the first year or two of DE, the car in stock form is more capable than the driver in most cases. Remeber that the 911 was designed for the track, then detuned some to make it tractable for the street.

That said, refreshing the stock setup is definitely worthwhile. Refreshed shocks, brakes, good HP street tires and alignment make a huge difference. Turbo tie rods also eliminate another source of looseness [stock rods are rubber bushed, turbo are solid]. This is all you need for the first season.

If you really get the bug, then the arms race begins!
The rubber suspension bushings in particular tend to deform and become sloppy. New bushings can really help tighten things up, and street poly is the material of choice for dual purpose cars. Trouble is, replacing the bushings requires opening up all of the key suspension points. This makes the temptation to ratchet up the operation to include stiffer torsion bars, revalved shocks, and stiffer [after market] sway bars. While you are at it, may as well move up to 7 & 9 x16 wheels and get some nice sticky R compound tires. It can get crazy.

The trouble with doing too much of this too early is that these changes put you even further behind the curve - the cars limits have advanced considerably, and you are still waiting for your first DE weekend.

The track bug bit me early in my first season. Aside from moving to an inch wider wheels with AVS Intermediates, turbo rods and alignment, I ran my trusty 150,000 Carrera with stock [old, buggered] bushings and stock suspension for the first year. Learnt heaps, had a ball, and at no time was the car a limiting factor. It was always way more capable than my driving.

In preparation for the second season, I did suspension [oh, and an engine and tranny rebuild]. I did the suspension mods in stages - TBs and shocks first, drove it two track weekends, then sways, then R compound rubber. It really helped me to feel the difference in handling characteristics that each change made in the car. The net result is a very streetable Carrera, with no harshness, that goes very nicely on the track.

This turned out longer than intended, but I hope the message is clear. The beauty of DE is you can run your street car with some minor preparation, learn a lot, and have fun doing it before needing to join the arms race.

[Rick Lee]

Here you go Bill. Steve Timmins sent me this on suspension upgrades.

http://instant-g.com/Projects/911VCSusp/index.html