[John Clay]

Question for you fast drivers. A few months ago I did a drill in autocross school that I really liked. It was a "figure 8" drill, where at the "top" and "bottom" of the "8" was a box. The entry and exit points were marked with two green cones each for you to go through. The "tip of the 8" was marked with one green cone. The drill taught two things: First was to visualize the proper line to take through the box without having to move the steering wheel. Second was the use of throttle steering. It was fun to learn that throttle steering actually worked.....need to tighten the arc, lift a bit off the throttle, need to lengthen the arc, add throttle. My car really seemed to respond well to this.

So, I've been wondering how much is throttle steering used on the track? If you reference specific tracks, VIR is still fresh on my mind. The only spot that I thought of throttle steering there was turn 1-2. Although its been ten years+ since I've driven Summit Point, I am familiar with its turns.

[jpnovak]

Throttle steer is used quite often. My last DE in Sept was at Motorsport Ranch in TX. There are numerous off camber uphill turns. If you can't throttle steer you will miss the apex on almost all of them. You have to set the car on turn in and then lift/gas to get the car's front end to bite and turn up to the apex. Otherwise the front will just push to the outside.

[Vicegrip]

While I don't fit into the fast driver box there are some turns that TTO can work well in. A short incomplete list.
At Summit Point 5 no question, comming out of 6 into 7 some cars. TTO works best in the slower turns for the most part. At VIR left hook and oak tree come to mind. YMMV. I don't TTO too much as getting the power back on takes too much time. (as it is normaly measured with a sundial) In fact I often just left foot brake and leave the right foot W.O.T. Coming out of 6 for example I will twich the wheel and tap the brake to unload the back (or just twich the wheel) and turn the car level with drivers right shoulder but maintain some momentum.
Not TTO but close. Into 10 if the tires feel good and I got some guts that day I will WOT and left foot the brake to set the front end down. (I don't recomend that if you have a real motor)

The HP guys need to pipe in on this one .

[cmartin]

Not a HP guy for sure, but the 6-7 combo at SP is my favorite. A quick lift followed by full gas it a lot of fun through the esses.

[bettyc]

Maybe I'm professing my ignorance here but are we talking about throttle steering or trailing throttle oversteer? In my mind one is a constant series of adjustments to maintain maximum speed through a slower turn, the other is a one time manuever to realign the hopefully forward direction of the car.

That said throttle steering is great at 1-2 and the oak tree at VIR. At Summit Point again turns 1-2 and 5-6 into 7. I have a 914 so I rarely use trailing throttle oversteer on purpose.

It would seem that if one were a good enough driver throttle steering would be a constant in most every turn as we are constantly trying to drive at the limits of tire adhesion in every turn. Afterall, the legend says that if you are not at the limits of your tires there is more speed to be had. At least that is what someone keeps whispering in my ear when I'm trying to sleep at night....

[John Clay]

Hmmm...I never knew what TTO meant. I guess it is, through either a lift, or a tap on the brake, unloading the rear end so the car will rotate. Same idea as trail breaking, only in the middle of a turn rather than the beginning. I was thinking of throttle steering like betty said, using it it to balance the car, but also to direct the path of the car to use all of the track out avaialable. I guess TTO is the same as throttle steering, only to a larger degree. I was guessing it was used quite a bit, but at my slow entry speeds and HP, I was always just WOT by the time I was at the apex. If I ever get faster, I would think that my driving would have to change because I would have to balance the car all the way through the turn, and I would be going to fast to add throttle with out a corresponding unwinding of the wheel.

I would have never figured oak tree for a throttle steering turn. I may have trail braked a touch, but was W.O.T. shortly after turn in.

While I'm in the mode of "what does it mean", what is "opposite lock" when someone is talking about driving?

[racer]

Originally Posted by John Clay

While I'm in the mode of "what does it mean", what is "opposite lock" when someone is talking about driving?

"Opposite lock" refers to steering a car into a slide.. Picture yourself in your car.. You've entered a corner way too fast and lift off the throttle, causing the rear of the car to rotate behind you. As the rear slides around, in order to regain control, one would often "steer into the slide" thus placing the steering wheel in an "opposite lock" scenario.

Or, to help visualize, turn on some "Dukes of Hazzard" reruns and watch how Bo and Luke evade Roscoe during some lurid slides/turns

[Vicegrip]

Betty I talked about TTO only as TO does little good for me. I am WOT or threshold braking 99% of the time.

WOT the hell. I got to get a motor.

To see some advanced driving watch the rally guys! TTO, TO op/lock, power slides, drifting through turns all 4 wheels pointing in directions other than the way the car is going, you name it. Also watch the in-car F1 stuff as you can see the drivers hands and the front wheels at the same time.

[John Clay]

Got it. The "lock" threw me for a loop. Not sure what you would be locking in that situation. Looked up lock in the dictionary. It certainly can't be referring to the definition "one that is assured of success or favorable outcome". Maybe its referring to the wrestling definition - "a controlling hold".

[Jase007]

I guess TTO is the same as throttle steering, only to a larger degree.

I am sure there are lots of technically "correct" definitions but, the way I understand and explain it is... generally:

[start diatribe]

Trailing throttle oversteer is exactly that ... getting OFF the gas, causing the weight shift forward (or towards neutral) most likely while entering a turn or a series of esses and inducing an oversteer situation where you may end up needing "opposit lock" AND gas to correct the problem. Usually, TTO is taught (in Skip Barber and Bondurant) as something to avoid b/c it upsets the cars balance. Don't confuse TTO and TB (trail braking). You can be trail braking into a corner while also sort of creating a TTO condition IF you are braking at the same time you are turning. Similar dynamics affecting the car ... weight shift away from rear onto nose (R or L if turning). IMO low / med / and high HP cars use the same technique to get a car to rotate entering / in the middle / exiting a corner/ I think it depends on what your goal is. Are you trying to maximize speed from turn-in to apex, through the apex, or from apex to turn-out. Do you have more grip than HP ? (Kurt's suggestion) If so, you'll stand on the gas earlier and longer than a lower grip, potentially heavier car with more HP. you can't afford not to. If you have more HP than grip ... and you need to rotate the car b/c of the line you chose on turn-in (screwed it up - or car is set up for all the OTHER corners on the track) then throttle steer until you are pointed in the right direction for the rest of the track. Lifting (inducing TTO) to correct this situation is only more time OFF of the gas ...= slower laps.

I explain (use / demonstrate) and understand "throttle steering" to be rotating the car while UNDER power (accelerating or maintenance throttle for that moment). E.g. I would throttle steer in the middle of a long sweeper, or exiting a corner to track out to get the right amount of rear biased 911 / 912 / 356 slide to reach track out. I would also throttle steer if I got into a corner and the car was understeering (nose pushing out away from the apex). Could happen (and does) from changing track conditions, fluids on track, changing tire grip, late passing =late apexing, etc... Usually, I explain throttle steering as what you "can do" with additional HP (more gas) to rotate the car to point it where you want when you want.

There are probably another hundred variables when you are TTO-ing, TB-ing and TS-ing depending on your fuel load (weight over nose of car changing understeer to oversteer), types / sizes of tires, air pressures, where you are in which gear's power band and how much more punch / rpm do you have to get through that particular corner (run out of revs...?)

[end diatribe]

This stuff will keep us all as "students" trying to learn racecraft. I love it.

FWIW

Jase