sway bars?
 

I need some recommendations for after market sway bars. After actually getting the car out on the track I found the car has a ton of roll. I just want to corner a little flatter. Would the rear end be more likely to come out on me with a stiffer rear sway? What are the benifits/liabilities of stiffer sways. Any recommedations on brands and sizes? My current set-up consists of:
22 and 28mm t-bars
Bilstien HDs
Weltmiester neatrix bushings all around
turbo tie rods
strut brace
way lowered
fuchs 7s and 9s
Toyo RA-1s

Thanks for any input,
Ted

My friend Ted.... you have no idea the SIZE of the can of worms this question opens :shock:

Some argue you can never go to BIG with "anti-roll bars" and others argue that it (roll) is all controlled by the torsion bars and anti-roll bars only adjust the last 5-10% of roll.

My $0.02 is that for a full track car (e.g. #60 2.0L SSPI car) we run a 31mm front Charlie bar and a rear 19mm rear OEM bar with revalved Bilsteins and they (the bars) aren't stiff enough. Some of our competitors have turned to NASCAR size bars and machine the ends to fit the rest of the Porsche parts (drop links, Aurora eye bolts, etc...). Allows you to go bigger than 31mm in front. Mind you, none of these cars could ever be comfortably driven on the street.

I think you'll land somewhere above the stock 20mm (front) and 18mm (rear), closer to 22 or 23mm adjustable front and something like 20 or 21mm adjustable rear. Remember, each mm in bar diameter increases torsional resistance exponentially (see BA's Performance Handbook). MOST importantly, match the anti-roll bar rate to the installed shocks /struts and weight of the car. (earliy cars = light, Carerra = heavier)

One of our sponsors offers these:

Charlie Bar (we have run for years and are excellent quality):

http://www.rennsportsystems.com/rearcharliebar.jpg

The Racers Group:

http://www.rennsportsystems.com/rgbars.jpg

*(available in 19, 22, 25, 28mm)

I think these bars below might be the setup you are looking for and are currently being tested by other Dorki in our midst:

Smart Racing:

http://www.smartracingproducts.com/P...r_Overhead.jpg

Hardware:

http://www.smartracingproducts.com/P...r_-_Side_1.jpg

*(available in 20, 23, 27, 31mm).

Here is a decent thread on Pelican as well.

Let me know when you start looking for an enclosed trailer and SUV / tow vehicle for a "once street driven '85 Euro Carrera" you used to be familiar with :lol:

Ahhh.... the slippery slope...

Jason

$$$$$$$$
 

Cha-ching... cha-ching... cha-ching... great advise, Jase. I think you may be actively trying to get Ted divorced :).

I strongly fall into the sway is for tuning and not control group. Roll is best controled by spring rate! Stiffer T bars does a world of good. Sway bars conect independent susp and when out of balance with the T bars cause all sorts of evil handling problems. I have seen many folks chasing their tails trying to tune out haddling problems by messing around with heavy sway bars only to have them all disapear when the T bars were increased and the sway rate was decreased.

Heavy sway rates might feel good at low loading but cause handling problems when the susp is loaded up. (Like when you are cornering fast at a track)

S bars are good for final tuning and tweeking for each track. Tune the car for the fast corner at each track.

Ted:

FWIW, I have 21mm torsion bars in the front and 28mm torsion bars in the rear. New Koni Heavy Duty adjustables all around, and stock sway bars.

I have been pleasently surprized with how flat my car corners (might be lack of speed of course), and pictures taken by Jason at VIR give a good visual.

IMHO, I would go up on the torsion bar size before doing the sway bar thing. It may be 23/29 or 23/30 does just what you need.

Talk with Tony about his set up, and Charlie and Richard about Richard's Carrera. We know that Tony's car corner's flat (that is when its not spining :wink: ).

I only ever had my Carrera on the track for the last HPDC in April - sort of sad, considering how much time and money I spent on the suspension. But it sure handled nicely then. I already had the Weltmeister 22mm rear sway bar. I think front was stock. Then we threw in 29mm t-bars in the rear and 23's upfront. Something most Carrera owners will experience eventually is broken sway bar welds. Factory mounts suck and break often. Tony and I have BTDT. Keep this in mind when upgrading - one of those "while you're in there" things. I had Steve Timmins do his homemade, bulletproof, reinforced welding. For $170 total and a 4 hr. round trip drive, it was a steal compared to paying $180 for the Porsche parts alone and then a few hours labor for grinding and welding at pro-shop. Of course, I blew my cost savings and just bought a set of Magnicores from Dr. Timmins "while I was there." No, never.

Sways are for tuning - they need to be fairly well matched to your overall spring rates. FWIW, read my sermon on selecting and tuning a suspension formula - its posted here and on Pelican.

The front sway can be about any of the aftermarket pseudo-adjustables. Once you get into this, it becomes clear that the geometry of the sways is every bit as important as the size [even more important]. The Weltmeister class fronts really need to be set with the lever arm horizontal and the drop link vertical. Anything else and they will bind/perform asymetrically/worse. The truly adjustable fronts [Smart Racing/TRG] are really nice, but I'd only go to these if you are very serious and prepared to spend.

The rear bar really needs to be a decent adjustable. Smart Racing/TRG just cant be beat. The trick is to use a largish bar that will allow you to run on the softest settings. Better geometry, less binding problems.

There is no mistaking the change in handling characteristics I get by moving my Smart Racing bar just one hole. I started out running it way too stiff, and progressively learned that softening it down produced are far better result. Look at Jason's pic of the Smart Racing rear arm - 4.0 is instant oversteer on demand, 5.5 is nicely neutral dry track, 6.5 is the rain setting - all on my setup. Took some time to settle on this, but now its easy. I never adjust the front.

I have almost the same setup on our SC & have not noted excess body lean, but opinions differ. I agree w/Kurt & Tony s-bars should be used for tuning the balance. I also like Tony’s idea about living large, but using softer setting. If nothing else this saves on constantly having to buy bigger bars each year. I’m switching over to the slightly larger 87’ Carrera bars this winter, if Linda’s not watching to closely. But other than that I’m still sorting out the biggest variable, the driver!

Way lowered is an understatement...

Ted - FWIW the setup on my 72 is about the same as yours, except I have [seemingly] light swaybars:

22 and 28mm t-bars
19/16mm front/rear
Bilstien RSR (front), Sport/Ralley (rear)
Weltmiester poly bushings all around
stock tie rods
strut brace
way lowered

I suppose the weight/size difference makes a big difference. But,
I don't notice much roll and she's generally polite on the track.