Okay Kurt I've got my glass of wine so let's talk.

"1. Many of the folks here that have voiced a dislike of the 3 a day are already Potomac workers." Agreed. And many are not. I guess what I meant to say was that the DE Team Leaders get to call the shots more often because they are the ones putting in the most time. When I was editor of dV the DE Chair didn't get much/any input into how I did the job. I would expect the reverse to be true.

"2. I was not at the meeting but the feed back I got from it was it was not so much as a "What do you think?" meeting but a "This is why" kind of thing. Perhaps some folks that intended to impart on a dialogue were dissuaded by the tone."

I was at the meeting and I think your information might be a little colored by the "perceptions" of your informants. Keep in mind that I went to the meeting with an unbaised opinion as I had not read any of the forums and knew nothing about the brohaha until I got to the track on Friday and I didn't see it the same way. What I saw were some people that run the program trying to be fair and give everyone an opportunity to speak up but not many were willing to voice their opinions. I understand being shy but if you have strong feelings about something you have to speak up or else deal with the decisions that are made without your input.

"3. A way to reduce brain death while driving is to reduce the time per run. No?" Not necessarily. I don't believe any of the black flag situations this weekend occurred in the last five minutes of a session, rather during the first 10 minutes. Otherwise no one would be complaining about losing track time.

"4. Yes, you are right, for many many years it has been 5 groups....and it was 4 runs a day."

And now it's five run groups and 3 runs a day. 4 run session at 20 minutes equals 80 minutes. Every group got 80 minutes on Saturday and 75 on Sunday.(I don't agree with stopping at 4:30 on Sunday either so no argument there). My point is that it is the same # of minutes either way. It's just how you slice it. I like my sandwiches cut lengthwise, Gary wants his cut diagonally.We still get the same amount of sandwich and I don't refuse the sandwich because it isn't cut the way I like it. I'm still hungry.

"5 (A) IIRC The first reason we went to go to 3 a day was 30 min per run times 3 runs. 90 min per day. That has faded out to 25 per run X3 = 75 min.
(B) The second reason was instructors getting tagged out from running from car to car. We had 2 students then and that is almost never the case now. "

But now we're doing evaluation rides that we never used to do and being "encouraged" to go out with all the white run group drivers so even if I don't have two students I still have more than one usually. I like not having to get into and out of cars as much and having longer periods of time to deal with my car. After all I'm there to drive and have fun too. I also like the breaks in mid morning and mid afternoon so no matter if I'm in the red or black group for the weekend I have a few moments before I have to jump into my students car. That means I can actually get tire pressures/temps if I need to or at least park my car in the paddock instead of leaving it in the hot pit and moving it later. If you'll remember we used to have lots of instructors parking their cars in the hot pits because they had to immmediately jump into students cars.

"6 A black flagged run when it is 1/4th is not the same as when it is 1/3rd or the only run you make before lunch or after. What is wrong with paying attention to the perception of something? Perception is everything. If the perception is less and we are there for fun then it just might be less fun."

This is where you're losing me. There seems to be this overriding "perception" that when a black flag is thrown the session is over. Seems to me that all the groups went back on the track to finish their sessions after the incidents had been dealt with.

"Considering the # of Dorki that are ACTIVE impassioned enthusiastic members in the club as compared to the # of members that are not active and only stay a year or so and let the membership lapse it might not take long for an active member voting block to move up. More and more are moving up the ranks and becoming instructors just as we did. "

And I say go for it. This is a cycle that happens in any active club. I've watched the leadership of the club change every five years or so and each time there are changes to programs and the club "feel" as a result. I didn't like where the club was before and got involved in the "management" to initiate changes that I thought were necessary. Now I've done my time and am content to sit back and just participate. As a result I also tend to cut the leadership some slack because I remember how much hard work and effort goes into these events and programs.

I have to say that one of the things that has disturbed me is the idea that the Dorki are Dorki first and PCA Potomac members second. Don't get me wrong, I like most of the Dorki ;) but it really does tend to set up an us/them attitude that carries over into the forums and events. Out of curiosity, of the overall attendence at the DE this weekend, how many drivers as a percentage were Dorki?

Betty,

First, I am extremely jealous that you are already on your first glass of wine and I am still at work.

OK, I hear your other points, so I am not saying that this particular concern necessarily should override, but I don't think that going back on the track to finish sessions after the incidents had been dealt with is necessarily the end of the story. Our run group was blackflagged when a white 993 went off and did not have a tow hook. This incident utterly destroyed the rhythm of that whole session. I think he or she went off on the second or third lap, so we barely got the tires heated up, then we were blacked, then we got back out for about 5 or 6 laps, the first two of which were necessary to get heated back up again.

Maybe an issue to explore is how to shorten black flag times? Again, I know nothing about this so I do not mean this as a criticism of the people who are volunteering to clear incidents. What if we really enforced the tow hook requirement at the tech line? Specifically, if you do not show us your tow hook, you do not go out on the track. Also, what if we got more volunteers to help with the black flag pullout/track cleanup issues? That way, we could have a special task force that focuses on getting the track hot again asap. Again, I am happy to volunteer to help with something like that while I am at the track.

Betty, there is most definitely an "us vs. them" theme to this place, which is largely the reason this bbs was established. It's been going on for a while and is now just about monolithic. It is what it is. And the usual Dorkiphus ghetto was in full swing at the paddock this past weekend. It's usually two Easy Up tents surrounded by tarps and tool bags, a "Don't Tread on Me" flag and plenty of folks wrenching on their cars. I met several forum members this weekend, whose screen names I had known for a long time, but had never met in person. There had to be at least 20 in and around the ghetto.

Hmmm, I never thought of it that way, but I guess that is the case. I visit Dorki because Potomac’s site has so little activity and rennlist (which I visit more often for the Race/DE forum) is national and doesn’t have as much information and feedback (obviously!) on local events. Now we are off topic, but I appreciate the information and reading others opinions which is why I donated to keep it running. I see the true Dorkis as a click who get together outside of the site to work on their cars, go to social events and hang out at the ghetto at track events. I am not in the click/ghetto, but appreciate the fact that this board exists for those who have such a great passion for their Porsches and their driving whether they park in the ghetto or not….or at least I think that is the case. Is there a mission statement? lol.

Todd,
I think you have some good ideas about reducing the black flag times. Is there a tow hook in the equipment bag of every stock Porsche? I don't know. I have them front and rear on my car but everyone knows it's not a "normal" car. ;0

If you were to convince a few others to join the "tow group" I'm sure Alan Herod would be very happy to have additional help. Of course this means that whatever group is "on call" will need to be up at pitout during the run sessions ready to go out. If you had several teams they could cycle through the day and no one would need to miss any of their run sessions. I'm sure all the drivers would be indebted to you!

Rick,
Why the them/us attitude? I'd really like to understand what's going on. Send me a PM so we don't hijack this thread.

I am another instructor in favor of 4 vs 3 sessions. I thought the responses online from the appropriate folks of Potomac PCA were well reasoned and articulate. I was left with, from only the online responses, however, a tone of "been there, done that, we're not likely to change back".

I got the same feeling when this was brought up during the instructor seminar. Some senior folks (I'm too new to this region to know names) shake heads like disapproving parents and want to dismiss the notion that the program should not be changed or can not be improved upon.

While some may have viewed this as a "dorki driven" topic, consider the audience. Passionate Porsche owners. Folks who will drop a motor between run groups (not noticing, I guess, the extended times between their 3 runs to get the work done ;) ) These folks could/will become the next core of instructors and DE promoters. They feel a bit disenchanted with the current "regime". They want to make a positive impact on something they truly enjoy.

A comment about the "last 40 min on Sunday gone unused" (BTW, the only reason that time was even available was because of the combining of Red and Black into one session late in the day), but how should it have been used more equitably? How would you send 4 groups out for 40 min.. 4 - 8 min sessions + changeovers? One great big "all skate"?


TOW HOOK demands? wth! The point of DE is to stay ON Course, no? he he... Race cars, absolutely, but Daily driven street porsches? seems a bit overkill. Oh wait this is for Potomac region events, so that would jive ;) lol

Betty,

I cannot speak to old Porsches, but all modern Porsches have tow hook recepticles and tow hooks in the tool kit. I am almost certain that the 993 had it, unless the driver removed it or just didn't know how it worked. The purpose of requiring drivers to show their tow hooks at tech would be to FORCE them to think about how they will get towed if necessary and to REQUIRE them to know exactly where their tow hooks are. You show up at the track, you install your tow hooks, and, hopefully, you don't have to use them all day so, at the end of the day, you unscrew them and put them right back into your took kit.

The black flag task force would have to be a relatively large group from every different run group that would have assigned on call times. When an all black flag is thrown, the PA announcer could say something like "black flag" on the PA so that everyone on the task force would report immediately if they are "on call" at that moment. We could grab brooms, fire extinguishers, track kitty litter, etc. . . whatever it takes to get the damned incident cleaned up. We would try to have a big enough group that each person is only on call for relatively short periods of time in the day.

Racer -- look at Sunday's schedule. It was set up from the start to end 30 minutes earlier and only allow 75 minutes per group instead of 80. In my opinion, when asked about this at the meeting, the reason for this was as clear as mud... And here were are debating the merits of how much quality time you get w 3 vs 4 session, when this 'lost' 5 minutes could make up a big part of the difference.

WRT tow hooks -- not all cars can accomodate them. There is no place for one in the back of my Carrera. The front has two 'eyebolt' locations though... Don't know why Prof. P. eliminated the rear tow hook location...

One tow hook came on all 993's. Drivers would have to buy another $7 tow hook. No biggie.

But, despite this weekend's tow hook-less 993, how many black flags are made even longer due to a driver not having an easy means for the tow truck to pull it out of the gravel?

I admit I did not notice the shortened day of the original schedule. My bad.

I think the SC/Carrera still has the tow hook holes, but they are under rubber trim in the rear bumper. I believe it was and is still German law to have tow hook points front and rear to assist fellow motorists.

On another unrelated note, I haven't been to an event in a very long time that had as many reasons for black flags as this past weekend. I really don't see how or why so many people had such a hard time. Not sure how many were mechanical vs simply driver error, but it always saddens me when i see someones' bent up car being schlepped back to the pits.