alan was in favor of it too...
from what i saw, it appears that green/blue students don't really care, don't know any different, or maybe don't wish to speak up. maybe due to the fact that they are new to the scene, or maybe lack of familiarity w/ the ones in charge.

so it appears that there is a track-junkie contingent that would like more track time and more sessions, ideally, both..... and no one else. there's no need for potomac to cater to that, since as it was 'mentioned' at the meeting: "hey, are we sold out or are we not?!"

what else could one add to such openmindedness?

i figured that the meeting's purpose was understood. the fact that there even *was* a meeting is not because of the widely held satisfaction w/ 3 sessions. it was due to the desire for more time/sessions which will either be provided or it will not. looks like a "not".

i have no problem w/ 3 sessions. hell, make it two sessions, just make them 45-50 minutes each. i do have a problem w/ letting track time go to waste, esp. in light of the 'compelling' arguments how we already maximize it and use all available.

Guess I'm one of the "inner power circle" or however it was described. Actually I was looking for a seat so I could drink my beer and listen to what was going on (I've been out of town and missed all the threads). I think the pro-change group lost a massive amount of credibility by not speaking up when given the opportunity because I came away not understanding what the fuss was about.

Potomac has been running five run groups since I started in 1993. Five run groups is five run groups. The groups were smaller but we still had five of them. You don't get any less time on the track now than you did then. It was just a little more laid back.

As for missing time because of black flag situations, every run group had them this weekend. No one was spared. I can't see how four run sessions instead of three would make any difference as it still takes the same amount of time to tow someone in or repair a tire wall. It seems it's more the perception of time than reality. You could have three run groups that go out five times a day and if someone screws up in each session you won't be spending any more time driving. The only way to fix this problem is to keep cars from breaking or drivers from operating while brain dead. Find a solution for that and you might have something.;)

It seems to me that the DE Team has gone above and beyond to explain in detail why the events are set up the way they are. They even initiated an open forum at the track to discuss this directly face to face. Eric stated he is talking with the track about the possibility of extending the 9-5 day but that decision ultimately rests with the track management.

From my perspective as past pres, vp, membership chair, editor there three choices. You can either:

-use the down time between your run sessions to volunteer at pit out, running the tow truck or anywhere else they need help OR go visit corner stations and watch other drivers and how they are driving the course
-volunteer to be part of the DE Team and have more input but this also means having the responsibility or showing up for all the events and being there from beginning to end of the event
-play in another sandbox

This is a volunteer club and we all do what we do because we enjoy it. No matter how an event is set up someone is not going to be happy. It is up to them to do something about it rather than expecting things to change to suit them.

If you're not having fun perhaps it's time to take up golf.

which tire walls were being repaired from 4:20 to 5:00pm?

Indeed. I'll add to the discussion that for many of us, especially the younger guys (I'm 28 ), track weekends are expensive. Between the registration fee, gas, and tires, it's a big part of some of our budgets. We're limited in the number of events we can participate in not by our schedules, but by our wallets. That's why it's particularly difficult to tolerate sitting in the paddock for almost 45 minutes drinking beer, when we could be out there doing what we paid several hundred dollars to do -- drive the track.

Betty,

I was at the meeting and don't recal an opportunity being presented.
FWIW, the tone and manner of the meeting were very clear. The i-corps already had their mind made up before everyone even got together....
Everyone read the thread here as well as the one on Porsche Talk. There was little if nothing left to discuss....why waste my time?

Whoa there Betty.

1. Many of the folks here that have voiced a dislike of the 3 a day are already Potomac workers.

2. I was not at the meeting but the feed back I got from it was it was not so much as a "What do you think?" meeting but a "This is why" kind of thing. Perhaps some folks that intended to impart on a dialogue were dissuaded by the tone. As a Green or Blue student I would not have sounded off in a room full of instructors.

3. A way to reduce brain death while driving is to reduce the time per run. No?

4. Yes, you are right, for many many years it has been 5 groups....and it was 4 runs a day.

5 (A) IIRC The first reason we went to go to 3 a day was 30 min per run times 3 runs. 90 min per day. That has faded out to 25 per run X3 = 75 min.
(B) The second reason was instructors getting tagged out from running from car to car. We had 2 students then and that is almost never the case now.

6 A black flagged run when it is 1/4th is not the same as when it is 1/3rd or the only run you make before lunch or after. What is wrong with paying attention to the perception of something? Perception is everything. If the perception is less and we are there for fun then it just might be less fun.

I don't think anyone is knocking the club or Potomac or individual people. I think people are voicing out because they think and feel that it is their club (as they should, it is) and they have a vested interest in it just as you and I do. A good way to disenfranchise people is to act as if you are ignoring them or what they think is not important. I also don’t think this is the case ether but again perception is important.
You are absolutely right about change, sometimes you just have to do it yourself. If you want to change something and the folks that are at the wheel don't want to, you need to become the guy or gal at the wheel. Considering the # of Dorki that are ACTIVE impassioned enthusiastic members in the club as compared to the # of members that are not active and only stay a year or so and let the membership lapse it might not take long for an active member voting block to move up. More and more are moving up the ranks and becoming instructors just as we did. We all have the choices of work to want you and other want, go with the flow, or go elsewhere.
The go elsewhere choice is the worst for the club. Rather than a happy long term member chatting up the club to others you get the "Been there, done that, used the shirt to wash the car. Don't bother to join." Listen to the enthusiastic members; make them into lifers as they are the future of the club.

What a lively discussion.

While it really would have been nice to have heard opinions from those who were vocal on this forum, public speaking in a group of your peers and mentors can be a bit daunting, as William suggested. However, I didn't note a preconceived bias from Alan or Tom and am the furthest person from the inner circle, despite the happenstance of my seating selection.

I'm slightly partial to three run groups, yet it has nothing to do with being an instructor. Even as a student, if I had to work on my car or make an adjustment, I felt rushed to get it ready for the next session. Dealing with mechanicals is all part of the track experience, but another huge part of the track experience is making sure I have fun and am not stressed (I have that in spades with real estate) AND being able to hang out with friends, make new ones or check out the cars. The downtime between run sessions in a three-a-day format is an asset to this less harried approach, but, quite frankly, if Potomac decided to change it back to four-a-day, it sure wouldn't be the end of the world nor would it tip me to a position where I felt like I was very much not having fun. It's the way the old format was structured before and it worked just fine; I simply happen to prefer the current one more.

So, if I had to vote, I'd say keep it at three. If I could vote twice, which I did at the meeting, I would also vote that I really don't care/am not bothered by a change in format.

Since this is a club, can we not vote on this? I know Katherine Campbell lauded the efforts of the instructors, but if we're going to favor the instructors, just give us more track time than everyone else (Just kidding. Really.) You see where this is going, though. I would think the club would want there to be an element of fairness that addresses the needs of all of the members in a balanced way. While new students don't know any better because they're simply happy to just be able to drive their Porsche to 120 mph and not get a ticket (hell, I still feel that way), the club needs green, blue and white students to keep the DE program alive, in the same manner that those very students need instructors to keep them alive on the track and to propel the performance driving aspect of the region.

Am I missing something? The people responsible offered up themselves to answer questions and explain their decisions. They listened and heard all people had to say. They were not in a position, nor should they have been, to make changes then and there. What I heard was they intended to listen, consider and evolve. Smart, in my opinion, rather than obstructionist, open rather than closed. If I were running the thing I would do exactly as they did; listen, learn, consider, think, then in the proper planning sessions implement with caution.

As far as going elsewhere, Noah has a point but I'm not sure it should carry a lot of weight. We are all free to shop elsewhere if the club does not fulfill our requirements. If enough do that, the ranks will thin and the forces of competion will cause change. But I understand we are oversubscribed, therefore the program is a sucess. In such cases change should be made slowly and with proper consideration, research and thought. What we are doing is not computer science but there are techincal pressures the should be considered. The cars are getting faster, more reasonable priced fast cars are getting into the hands of less experienced people and the mix on the track has repercussions. So, no doubt, things will change in order to continue to make the events safe, fulfilling experiences for many people.
I took away the idea that the leadership was not opposed to change, just an orderly process to change if it was warranted. I doubt any resonable person expected a meeting like that to result in anything except an informaiton exchange. The format was not right and unless safety is at stake, changes should be, as I said above, a slow process. After all, the first ape to walk upright did not learn to write right away!
ARF

I agree with this and thought the same thing as soon as I started reading some of the posts above. I believe Alan and Tom are genuinely trying to make DEs more fun and drive for the buck...why else would they be there and put so much time into? To make it worse? I don't think so. This is an observation as a driver and PCA member, not an instructor. They explained on why we now have three sessions and wanted comments on why four would be better. How can it get more fair than that?

I voted for four earlier on this thread and raised my hand for it, but am not hell bent on four and therefore didn't make any comments. I could go either way and lately have been leaning towards three a bit for one reason: I need to get use to longer sessions if I am going to club race. Purely selfish, but that is why for myself, I think three sessions might be better. As a student, I think four is better to break up the day and for repetition. It was discussed at the meeting to give the higher run groups three sessions and four for Green and Blue. That might be the ticket and is my vote if we can swing it.

I really wish I had been there.

My main goal is to maximize potential track time . . . period. I am less concerned about whether I get that track time in three vs. four, so long as the track time is maximized, although my gut says that four might be better at maximizing track time for practical reasons (e.g., black flags). However, I understand that I may not be aware of all of the factors that affect our track time, so my assumptions about how we could be more efficient may not always be accurate.

In any event, I volunteered to help while I am at the track to do anything that would help to maximize track time. I am not sure whether anything we could do could increase track time, but I think that if you are not happy about something it is preferable to work to change it if possible.

One of the important things to remember is that this is a volunteer organization, meaning that nobody has to be here (i.e., students, instructors and administration), and nobody is making a profit, sort of. To me, this makes all the difference in the world. As such, we all owe it to each other to keep this in mind when we talk about disagreements, because the way in which we disagree says a lot about the type of club we are, or want to be.