e36 clutch pedal dropped to floor

[LPM911]

Pulling into my office today, I went to change gears to slow down for a speed bump and the clutch pedal dropped to the floor with no resistance. I had popped into neutral already and could only get it back into 5th gear. Limped it into the parking area in 5th gear.

With the car running, I played with the clutch pedal and observed that it can be pulled off the floor back to the normal position, but when pushing it down it goes straight back with no resistance and does not return back up. So seems like the clutch pedal is not working with the actual clutch to engage/disengage.

The brake fluid level light is on but that is not terribly unusual for this car. It has been coming on intermittently for some time and has needed to occasionally be topped off.

Waiting for it to warm up a bit before I got back out there to look at it, but any advice on what to look at/for would be great!

[Richard Curtis]

Lane, hopefully, someone with more BMW knowledge will chime in soon, but if it were my P-car, the brake reservoir is also the reservoir for the clutch master cylinder. I would start looking for a leak between reservoir and the clutch slave cylinder. Good luck.

[Vicegrip]

E-36 has Oh so much plastic and mechanical motion in the clutch pedal cluster. Can you feel any resistance or does the pedal flop? did it go from all good to 0.0 or did the clutch pedal feel odd a time or two prior? Could be air could be a broken part. Based on your discription I am guessing mechanical break which would be real easy to se once you crawl in. As said the Clutch draws from a point above min level so a failure in the clutch fluid system does not also take out the brakes.

Brakes and clutches should not need to be topped up. The fluid level should go from (measured when cold) Max to Min over the life of a set of brake pads.

[86911TLCAB]

As VG said, 1st take a look at the pedal assembly itself and see if anything looks broken(parts diagram available on realoem if you don't have one)...then follow the line and see if you have a leak in one of the connections or the line may have a break somewhere. if the level has been dropping occasionally and you have had to refill it, I would suspect a leak in the line and air getting into the system. then Pull the slave cylinder...it may have just given up (don't pump the clutch with the slave pulled out). if you are going to pull it anyway, and it hasn't been replaced in a while you may want to replace the slave cylinder for good measure.

Curious how you got it into 5th gear...were you pressing down on the clutch which was already on the floor? or did you just jam in into 5th somehow?

[cmartin]

As said check the fluid. My guess is its low. Fill and see if you can pump up the clutch. Might be enough to get home or to a better location. I've seen a spot weld brake and the clutch pedal and spring acted similarly but thats not nearly as common as a bad slave/leak.

[Goggles Paesano]

Pulling into my office today, I went to change gears to slow down for a speed bump and the clutch pedal dropped to the floor with no resistance. I had popped into neutral already and could only get it back into 5th gear. Limped it into the parking area in 5th gear.

With the car running, I played with the clutch pedal and observed that it can be pulled off the floor back to the normal position, but when pushing it down it goes straight back with no resistance and does not return back up. So seems like the clutch pedal is not working with the actual clutch to engage/disengage.

The brake fluid level light is on but that is not terribly unusual for this car. It has been coming on intermittently for some time and has needed to occasionally be topped off.

Waiting for it to warm up a bit before I got back out there to look at it, but any advice on what to look at/for would be great!

100 percent clutch master and slave cylinder. You can still drive it. Shut the car off when at a stop. Leave the clutch pedal on the floor. Start it un first and hard shift it.

[LPM911]

Topped fluid off, pumped the pedal. No change. Checked fluid level, dropped back down to same level.

Looked under car to find:
57021

57022

[86911TLCAB]

Either the slave cylinder or the line going to it. Time for a tow home or to a shop to repair. Not sure I would risk the possible damage to the tranny by trying to drive it home.

[mlytle]

The brake fluid level light is on but that is not terribly unusual for this car. It has been coming on intermittently for some time and has needed to occasionally be topped off.


(queue the "Big Bang Theory" episode where Penny ignores the check engine light....)

brake warning light comes on for a reason, and it is not just to top off the fluid. brake fluid should never need to be topped off. a loss of fluid means there is a problem with the brake or clutch. there should be a puddle of brake fluid under the master or slave cyl. gonna have to replace one or both.

just noticed your pics...no surprise...puddle under the tranny. slave cyl probably died and is spewing fluid into the bellhousing. rare that the rubber fluid line would fail, but replace it anyway while doing the slave cyl.

recommend a tow to your favorite shop. slave cyl could be done in your parking space...not that hard...but....

[86911TLCAB]

when you look closely at the first picture I see what looks like a trail of fluid running down the tire...could the connection at the master cylinder be loose and the fluid spraying in the engine bay, then running down the lines?

[LPM911]

(queue the "Big Bang Theory" episode where Penny ignores the check engine light....)

This is most probably a deserved zing, but in my defense, I had been chasing the problem, but was betting on the brakes. Car is street parked and not often driven so hadn't been a priority.

when you look closely at the first picture I see what looks like a trail of fluid running down the tire...could the connection at the master cylinder be loose and the fluid spraying in the engine bay, then running down the lines?

I think that's just melting snow as its the wrong side of the car from the master cylinder. But it still could be a loose line. I'll be coming back this weekend with the ramps and a jack to see if I can see things better.

[86911TLCAB]

pretty easy repair...most likely the seals on the slave cylinder have failed...hopefully nothing fell off the slave cylinder and is now in the bell housing...but you will be able to tell when you disconnect it. its connected with 2 13mm (I think) bolts...

[mlytle]

pretty easy repair...most likely the seals on the slave cylinder have failed...hopefully nothing fell off the slave cylinder and is now in the bell housing...but you will be able to tell when you disconnect it. its connected with 2 13mm (I think) bolts...

either that or a 10mm. need deep socket and an extension for the top one.

clutch line that attaches to slave is 14mm iirc.

and make sure the new slave goes in with the bleed valve pointing DOWN.

[LPM911]

J'accuse!
57070

So after getting the car up on ramps and jack stands, filling the reservoir, pumping the pedal, and watching underneath... the slave cylinder was dry and so was the hydraulic line going to it, even after wiping them down, but still drips coming from the transmission.

To remove the slave cylinder I used an 11mm flare nut wrench to remove the hydraulic line. Then the two nuts holding the slave cylinder on were 13mm. Top one was hard to get to, ended up using a short 13mm socket on a wobble extension, then a knuckle, then a regular extension to get it off. Easy peasy with the right tools... some of which I had to leave the parking lot where my car was stranded to get... :lol:

Anyways, looking at the two parts, its pretty easy to notice that the pushrod is missing from the old part. So I'm guessing thats stuck in the bell housing somewhere? I assume I'm going to have to drop the transmission to get this out, right?

And I think its safe to assume I shouldn't just put the new slave cylinder on and plug along forward. Seems like having a metal rod floating around in there would be bad.

[86911TLCAB]

I would get a magnet first on the end of something flexible and try to fish I out...if you can get the pushrod, anything else shouldn't be a big deal...

[Jazzbass]

:shock: BRB going to buy a new slave cylinder for my 328.

[trytryagain]

Or is it possible that the push rod is no longer in there? Are there any openings in the bell housing? Get one of the nifty inspection tools shown on another thread.

[86911TLCAB]

It is likely in there. I don't think There is a gap big enough for it to drop out. It is likely sitting at the bottom of the bell housing. There is more space in there than I would have imagined. I can't see it getting in the way but anything can happen. Sadly pulling that trans requires taking a lot of crap off.

[86911TLCAB]

Saw this. How did we ever live without google..worth a try with the flexible magnet..


https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1516373-Slave-Cylinder-Push-Rod-Lost-in-Bell-Housing

[Dr K]

There is also a "magnet tip" on those bluetooth "endoscopes" posted here a couple of days ago. That might be a great solution because you can see what you're doing while you try to get it.

[LPM911]

No luck fishing it out with the magnet yet. However, while I was in there, I noticed I can wobble the clutch fork a lot more than I expected. Is that normal? Using my finger I can push it up and down, side to side, back and forth with no resistance.

[mlytle]

iirc, if it is the piston you are fishing for...think it is stainless steel. magnet ain't gonna do much good.

yes, fork does have a little play in it. it is just around the throwout bearing in the middle and only held by a small spring clip on the side opposite the slave.

[LPM911]

iirc, if it is the piston you are fishing for...think it is stainless steel. magnet ain't gonna do much good.

yes, fork does have a little play in it. it is just around the throwout bearing in the middle and only held by a small spring clip on the side opposite the slave.

The replacement piston stuck to the magnet, so I had assumed that the old part was that way too. Found some pictures on the internet and have a better picture of whats in there. Good to know that some play in the fork is expected, but still need to get that piston out. Might just turn into a clutch job WYIT.

[86911TLCAB]

Lane, if you look through the thread below there is a picture of the inside of the bellhousing, the clutch fork and the pin.

https://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=37205

When I first got my 97 e36 I could not push the clutch all the way down. when I did I get some very horrible grinding feeling. Not fully understanding the potential issues I figured it was just the clutch itself. When I removed the trans, I found the little plastic fork pin (picture in the thread) was broken and the fork was no longer connected on the passenger side of the bellhousing. so I am not sure what was really happening when I pushed the clutch pedal in.

So there is some movement, but I don't think it should move real free unless the fork pin is broken (apparently a common problem--they now sell a brass pin). If you are able to move that around freely, I would venture your pin is broken and the passenger side of the clutch fork is not connected to the housing.

when I did mine I swapped out the shifter bushings also...the car shifts like it was new.

[mlytle]

if the plastic pin is broken, you would probably be able to spin the clutch fork around since it would not be anchored on that side.

i hope it does not turn into a clutch job! if it seems like it might be going that way, you could just get as far as loosening the bellhousing bolts enough to slide the trans back a half inch..enough to get the pin out.

maybe call around to some autopart stores to see if any have a loaner borescope tool that will let you look around in there.

[LPM911]

I think tito nailed it, I think the clutch fork pin is busted or its otherwise become disconnected on that end. I could stick my finger in the cup on the clutch fork and pull it directly towards the side of the bell housing away from the fork pin. I have a video where you can hear me clanging it all over the place.

[86911TLCAB]

It is likely broken. If it were me I would get the car home and prep for a tranny pull. If you decide to do the clutch, and don't want to buy a new dual mass friction flywheel, I was able to have mine resurfaced for about 120 bucks.

[LPM911]

Fast forward a few months... I finally moved it from my office's parking deck (haha) and went to it. At the end of the day, definitely had to pull the trans off. Pelican's instructions were pretty spot, which is I think what I followed last time too. The starter would not free up until we whacked it pretty good.

Anyways, after seeing the inside, I think the pivot pin on the clutch fork broke a long time ago (found 2 pieces) and then the spring holding it on must've broken as well because it was in pieces in the bell housing. I think the speed bump I was going over must've been the last straw and wiggled the clutch fork away from the rod of the slave cylinder, so when I pushed in the clutch, it just shot out. I think the slave cylinder was slowly on its last leg anyways due to the topping off of brake fluid.

There was some weird scoring on the inside of the clutch fork and also the area where the push fit pivot pin is scared up and not smooth either. I'll be replacing them, but I'm worried the pivot pin may not seat very well. Picture below.

On the plus side, lots of clutch material left!

Finally off!!!:
57810

Lots of damaged things:
57811

Scoring in the bell housing where the pivot pin pushes in:
57812

Scoring on the clutch fork:
57813


Time to order some parts...

[smdubovsky]

FWIW, Taking the trans off is easy. Getting that SOB to line back up is the hard part;)

[LPM911]

FWIW, Taking the trans off is easy. Getting that SOB to line back up is the hard part;)

That sounds about right, this is the second time I've taken the trans off this car...

[86911TLCAB]

Lane, not sure if you have replaced them before, but I swapped out all the shifter bushings while I had mine out...really makes it feel new...concur it was a bit of pain to get back in...

Is your pivot pin hard plastic or metal?

[Jazzbass]

x4 on a pain to put back in

[arob]

x5