Using Turn Signals for Passing

[HughA44s]

NOT ADVOCATING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER - I was down at the Audi Club Event this weekend at VIR and they are implementing using turn signals instead of finger points for passing. The idea is for the car being passed to use their turn signals to indicate it is OK to pass and show where they are going and staying. The basic rule is still pass to the side of which the next turn goes. So if you want a car to pass on the right (with an upcoming right hand turn), you signal to the left (Indicating I am staying on this side) and the passing car should go to the right.

Needless to say, it took some time to figure out and in some groups in was a bit of a cluster FxxK - but no one hit each other.

We were told that this is a bit of a test case for other groups.

It does take some getting uses to. I actually turned on my high-beams a few times but started to get it right toward the end.

I idea appears to be that you keep your hands on the wheel and don't stick your hand out the window at 120mph. Also eliminates the one finger points.

Perhaps a wave of the future?

[Chopper Dropper]

Some clubs have been doing this for 10+ years, nothing new. My take was it can be very confusing, especially for students who are often confused anyway!, also can easily be inadvertantly hit which could lead to very expensive coming together!! How many cars do you regularly see with indicators on for miles??
Dirk

[}{arlequin]

pretty terrible idea. finger points to where the passing car should go but blinker shows where the passed car is going? no that won't confuse anyone lol

besides the major point where panicky hectic arm flapping of beginner groups activate everything including wipers and blinkers UNINTENTIONALLY. have a car cue off that blinker to guarantee a collision.

[BlackTalon]

I think they do this because their fuched up electronics means the power windows don't work half the time :lol:

I have to imagine some people get confused about if a left signal means "pass me on the right" vs "pass me on the left". I imagine it works the least well in the beginner group, where the already have too much to think about.

I've heard of a few clubs using this system. One of them uses the signal to tell the overtaking car which side to pass on (not which side the slower car is sticking to).

It also may mean the drover in the overtaking car is having to put their eyes way down if they are up close to the slower car.

As always, lots of trade-offs. I agree with you that it is a 'way', and not the 'only way'. I can't see a method that does not have any downsides. Maybe in the future everyone will be connected via 2-way radios, so there will be no need to signal at all. Heck, even the finger signal used to recognize the overtaking driver can be done away with, and they can just cuss them out over the radio :cool:

[Jazzbass]

The number of times I've accidentally hit the turn signal/windshield wiper switches while on track make me think this is a bad idea.

Plus there the obvious training problem, right? Empirical evidence driving in the DC area suggests most Audi and BMW drivers don't know where the turn signal switch is, so they'd have to learn a whole new skill.

[VaSteve]

If you've ever worked the grid and found a green students helmet unstrapped or instructed a totally overloaded student you'd know what a bad idea this is.

When riding right seat I can tell if your hands are on the wheel, depending on the car, I can't see the indicators on the dash.

If you're concerned about rain getting in, it doesn't (much)
If you're concerned about cold turn the heat on!

[N0tt0N]

I like the idea of using the windshield wipers to indicate a pass.

Left... no... right... no... left... no... right... no...

On second thought, maybe flashers would be better...

[Chopper Dropper]

I like the idea of using the windshield wipers to indicate a pass.

Left... no... right... no... left... no... right... no...

On second thought, maybe flashers would be better...

Oh no, now you are going to get Tim Kearns in the conversation with his Dad's intermittent windshield wiper! Pass now, no wait, no pass now, no wait.
Dirk
Dirk

[HughA44s]

"Empirical evidence driving in the DC area suggests most Audi and BMW drivers don't know where the turn signal switch is" Now lets not get personal - I know exactly where my turn signal is. As to whether or not I choose to use it is another story. lol

I did point (signal) 4 500hp cars by me on the back-strech by just leaving my turn signal on and watching them go by. I could have also just left the stupid thing on by accident.

[Dandelion]

Huh. When there was a Daytona Prototype on the track this past DE season, it was supposed to use signals doing the opposite: pass on the side with the blinker.

Better figure out a way for all the clubs to do it the same way!

ed

[HughA44s]

By the way, I have done lots of events with other clubs and have had them implement the manual "Point By" in at least 5 different and creative ways including but not limited too:

- The passing car always goes offline
- The passing car always goes online
- The passing car always goes to the left

- etc

"Better figure out a way for all the clubs to do it the same way" This would be good.

[Fumes]

ive encounted this at DMTD and Chin. worked fine but that was in open passing. needed for cars running a window net or window etc...

[N0tt0N]

53668

[John Clay]

That would make life so easy in the fo fo. Just run flashers and continue to pay attention to the mirrors.

[HughA44s]

"worked fine but that was in open passing." I was running in their Blue Group and we ended up the event with open passing with a blinker (or a point) errr, or both.

[HoodPin]

What happens when the rear turn signal bulb decides to burn out midway during a track session?

And how 'bout when the DP comes upon a 944 that was planning to "go a little faster" into T1, and the 944's brake light bulb goes on the fritz, and DP thinks he's just been given a passing signal?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9R6DLKnOLDk/VglxVwCIo-I/AAAAAAABBtw/3T94_2c0GdE/s1600/Porsche-911-Carrera-Cup-crash.jpg

[Fumes]

And how 'bout when the DP comes upon a 944 that was planning to "go a little faster" into T1, and the 944's brake light bulb goes on the fritz, and DP thinks he's just been given a passing signal?


haha DP (or GTD or GTLM) cars at Murray don't wait for points. It's just a courtesy. If you were in a fofo w DP closing by the time your hand begins to move to give a point, they are already past you :twisted::twisted::twisted:

[Trak Ratt]

1st world problem.... Brexit pales in comparison :-)

[arob]

NOT ADVOCATING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER - I was down at the Audi Club Event this weekend at VIR and they are implementing using turn signals instead of finger points for passing. The idea is for the car being passed to use their turn signals to indicate it is OK to pass and show where they are going and staying. The basic rule is still pass to the side of which the next turn goes. So if you want a car to pass on the right (with an upcoming right hand turn), you signal to the left (Indicating I am staying on this side) and the passing car should go to the right.

Needless to say, it took some time to figure out and in some groups in was a bit of a cluster FxxK - but no one hit each other.

We were told that this is a bit of a test case for other groups.

It does take some getting uses to. I actually turned on my high-beams a few times but started to get it right toward the end.

I idea appears to be that you keep your hands on the wheel and don't stick your hand out the window at 120mph. Also eliminates the one finger points.

Perhaps a wave of the future?

It didn't seem "too" hard to get used to. My main issue was actually reaching the signal stalk due to a QR hub on my steering wheel. I was actually using both methods. I guess it would take some getting used to.

All in all, it wasn't that bad.

And, I think everyone was given the option to use either method on Saturday. ;)

[RENN 951]

The Potomac Audi Club started using turn signals at VIR some years back - only back then, you gave a right blinker when you wanted to be passed on the right, and a left blinker when you wanted to be passed on the left. So apparently they have now REVERSED that because they think this is "less" confusing?

One year, the Chief Instructor's car got clipped there between Turns 2 and 3 when the lead car let one car pass, and forgot to turn off the signal for the next car (the CI!) and closed the door on him. Personally, I always preferred clear hand signals. And as previously mentioned, when you are in the right seat and instructing, it can be impossible to see what signals the student is giving.

[HughA44s]

"And, I think everyone was given the option to use either method on Saturday." We had a bit of a rebellion to it on Saturday, got a stern talking to on Sunday, and then gave it another try. I did catch on Sunday. I confused the heck out of a car ( by turning on my high beams) passing me going through 3 and 4 but go it straighten out. Another event and I think I would be good. New tricks, old dog, etc.

[GravityAlwaysWins]

One year, the Chief Instructor's car got clipped there between Turns 2 and 3 when the lead car let one car pass, and forgot to turn off the signal for the next car (the CI!) and closed the door on him.

That's the biggest advantage I see of hand method: you can't accidentally leave your arm out the window with an indefinite pass signal.

[N0tt0N]

Queue Scott the Flagger

[somdcroc]

Queue Scott the Flagger

I think the pointing we do now is more visible for everyone. To be honest when I have flagged PDX/HPDE events, depending on what station I am working, what run group is on track, and how much head swiveling I have to do (when working that station alone), I miss about half of the point-bys anyway because the driver might be on the opposite side of the track, the angle you are watching from obstructs the view, etc. I have actually seen instructors give point-bys as well. Obviously during races we usually only see the inside the car waving or maybe a finger or three through the window net.

Speaking of flagging, who is volunteering or instructing at Friday's "Helmets off to Heroes" event at Summit Point? I'll see you there (better not use your turn signals unless Miriam changes things up this year!) I'll be the guy at a corner wearing white. Please look for me. I might even be holding a colorful flag that may or may not mean something.

[BikePump]

This is a lowest common denominator issue to me- hell I don't even have working turn signals in my car. Hands exist in everyone's car and generally when you stick one out the window the point is clear and they can't be accidentally left on or fail. Plus there is the added benefit that an instructor can give a point if necessary- not so much with turn signals

[ausgeflippt951]

This just seems like people trying to fix something that isn't broken. And considering there are far greater numbers of people without working turn signals vs. people without removable windows (e.g., 997 Cups), it seems silly for us to try and implement something that doesn't have any real upside.

Is it really that much of a danger to have someone *gasp* take one hand off the wheel at 120 mph?


The only time I have ever been in a position where the hand method doesn't work is when passing a car with manual steering through a tight section of corners. The driver gave me a point inside the car (because he didn't feel comfortable taking his left hand off the wheel) and left the door wide open; since I knew the driver and knew what he was doing, the pass was totally fine. Oh, and this is Red group, where we should all be capable of giving/receiving passes without any pointby at all.

So, yeah.

[BikePump]

This just seems like people trying to fix something that isn't broken. And considering there are far greater numbers of people without working turn signals vs. people without removable windows (e.g., 997 Cups), it seems silly for us to try and implement something that doesn't have any real upside.

Is it really that much of a danger to have someone *gasp* take one hand off the wheel at 120 mph?


The only time I have ever been in a position where the hand method doesn't work is when passing a car with manual steering through a tight section of corners. The driver gave me a point inside the car (because he didn't feel comfortable taking his left hand off the wheel) and left the door wide open; since I knew the driver and knew what he was doing, the pass was totally fine. Oh, and this is Red group, where we should all be capable of giving/receiving passes without any pointby at all.

So, yeah.

+1

[LPM911]

Manual steering racks as a reason for not putting the arm out the window? Never heard that one before. Sounds like an issue specific to a single driver, because plenty of manual steering racks out there that don't have this problem.

[Chopper Dropper]

Manual steering racks as a reason for not putting the arm out the window? Never heard that one before. Sounds like an issue specific to a single driver, because plenty of manual steering racks out there that don't have this problem.

Non power steering would only be a maybe excuse in a parking lot at very low speed. As Colin said, why try and fix stuff that ain't broke!
Dirk

[LPM911]

Non power steering would only be a maybe excuse in a parking lot at very low speed. As Colin said, why try and fix stuff that ain't broke!
Dirk

I think relying on turn signals is a bad idea. Lights can fail and be hard to see in certain sun conditions. Arms out the window is pretty obvious.

I agree, it ain't broke, lets not fix it.

[}{arlequin]

lol red drover wispy arm syndrome.
can't handle unboosted steering... has he tried gokarts?

[N0tt0N]

Yeah, he has - no pointbys there, either! :lol:

I'm broke. Send your fixes in a large envelope of large, unmarked currency.

[Dandelion]

...The only time I have ever been in a position where the hand method doesn't work is when passing a car with manual steering through a tight section of corners.

What car? The manual steering in the Lotus felt light, if anything, above parking lot speeds...

ed

[Fumes]

i dont rly care if it's blinker or a hand ill take either

just give it quickly please i drive flat out no lifting

black group has shameful trains

[ausgeflippt951]

Manual steering racks as a reason for not putting the arm out the window? Never heard that one before. Sounds like an issue specific to a single driver, because plenty of manual steering racks out there that don't have this problem.

What car? The manual steering in the Lotus felt light, if anything, above parking lot speeds...

ed


:twisted: You guys are gonna like this...our very own Dennis Howard. It was his old SC.


And of course, I also gave him crap when I went to talk with him about it. My ol' 944 also has manual steering.

[Chopper Dropper]

i dont rly care if it's blinker or a hand ill take either

just give it quickly please i drive flat out no lifting

black group has shameful trains

I noticed that after you went to Black!!

[Fumes]

I noticed that after you went to Black!!

im in red i must drove flat out :twisted:

took some time after you demoted me from black to green.

[Goldie]

I was at this event as well. I drove in various run groups (blue, black and red) and instructed with yellow and green.

Personally, as folks have shared here already, not a big fan. I do recognize I might not make (m)any friends with that statement.

This system of turn signals, IMHO, could and would fantastic in Europe, where people have lane discipline and understand moving back after passing, and turning their blinkers on/off. However, with lack of experience of drivers here, and missing lane discipline, I wonder if this ever is going to work.

Unfortunately, I believe it's only a matter of time until we see the first bend metal/accident happen. At which point, the club, its instructors and the organizers will have the deal with the ramifications.

In the various groups this weekend, I saw a few too many close calls, resulting from blinkers left on for too long, a pass being taken when the blinker was on (or wasit turned off already). The confusion element with which side the blinker needs to be on is one thing, another thing is how long do you leave the blinker on, and lastly, and surely not in the least, in higher run groups, how can you point EXACTLY where you want a car to be. In my momentum car (the Miata), I have no problems letting folks by, as long as they follow my point by. I will make it happen. With a blinker, there are just too many open elements of -potential- confusion out there.

One passing signal per car, either to the left of your car, or over the roof, it's not that hard...

</soap box>

[Chopper Dropper]

im in red i must drove flat out :twisted:

took some time after you demoted me from black to green.

You must have driven flat out in Green!!

[ovfd911]

Oh no, now you are going to get Tim Kearns in the conversation with his Dad's intermittent windshield wiper! Pass now, no wait, no pass now, no wait.
Dirk
Dirk

Hah! And don't forget that my patent is for "moisture variable"!

[Handlebar]

They used this method for my Track Day at Spa, and at Nurburgring as well.

All those cars were fairly new, and the drivers were very good about signals. All except the two new Corvettes with huge "ROOKIE" stickers on them.

That being said, I think I was entered into a Red/Black event with extended passing, and guys used to their system. They used the blinker to show where their own car was going at Spa. It was easy to use, everything went smoothly that day. Nurburgring was only passing on left. Still used blinkers.

When I got home, I initially kind of wished we would do something similar at Potomac. I agree - our current system isn't broken, so using blinkers not hands is one solution to a problem we don't really have along with introducing new problems. Heck, I can't see if my signals are *on* in the '88 unless it is dark out. The downsides and possible collisions from accidental signals makes it an unwise change in my view.

[HughA44s]

Ken. We were told that this system was used in Europe so this confirms that. Maybe consistency is the real key.

[ausgeflippt951]

Ken. We were told that this system was used in Europe so this confirms that. Maybe consistency is the real key.

Yeah, I also used it at the Nurburgring.

And I'll admit, I forgot to turn off my signal about three separate instances.

Dumb idea.