3.2 & 964 owners

[Marc A]

A fair number of you probably know, or have heard of Steve Wong. He is an enthusist that just happens to have a chip burner, and a huge amount of knowledge and experience with DMEs and the chips that run our motors.

Steve does not know that I am posting this information here. I have known Steve electronically for over 2 years as he has other projects (a propane charged A/C system for one).

Anyway, there are 3 of us locally who have Steve's chips. All chips are custom burned. This is a stand up guy with an outstanding product who is very responsive to inquiries and quick to help with tech questions. The chip is 230.00. Compare that with the other "cookie cutter" chips and it is a no brainer.

Here's the site: http://www.911chips.com/

[87turbolook911]

AMEN!

[VaSteve]

In what year, did Porsche start using chips in the cars? Exactly what do they control? I know a couple guys here have chipped their Volvos to change shift points, but I guess you wouldn't need that with a 5-speed. What else does it control? Fuel injection?
Scuze the ignorance!

[87turbolook911]

Here's some info that Tim (Vove) farwarded to me:

You can get some increase in performance. On the later cars Porsche got a
little more aggressive on the full throttle fuel and ignition maps above
4500 rpm, but kept most of the remaining part throttle maps similar to
the earlier years. This accounted for the rise in peak hp of the earlier
cars quoted 207 hp to the later cars 217. While peak hp numbers are great
for the car magazine reviews and dealer brochures, most people spend most
of their time in the part throttle and midrange regions. There is quite a
bit to be gained here, where mid throttle hp and torque can be increased
by 10 - 15 and peak hp can be increased to about 225 on an otherwise
stock car. Do some exhaust modifications, and you should equal or exceed
the European spec 231 hp. Throttle response is much snappier and the car
generally pulls a bit harder. Though some would say that later cars are
limited in their performance increase, everyone that I have worked with
and programmed chips for on their 88-89s have noticed quite a performance
improvement. With respect to your concerns about being in an emissions
controlled state, I keep the low load, low rpm regions of the fuel and
ignition maps virtually stock. This keeps emission and fuel economy stock
and maintains the life of your O2 sensor and cat.
Feel free to PM me or email me at stevekw@pacbell.net.

I mapped my chips to work with 91 octane. Many of the good folks that I
have worked with have provided me invaluable feedback from their tests
and experiences pushing their cars to the limits on the track and the
street with the various grades of fuel and temperatures around the
country, helping me to dial the chips to the limit while finding the
margin of saftey against predetonation in the 3.2 Carreras. The problem I
have found with some chips, those of whom most of us know but shall
remain nameless, is that they are a one size fit all, dialing in too much
ignition advance at full throttle in the 5000-6500 rpm region, causing
severe predetonation under sustained heavy track loads or high outside
ambient temperatures. This may allow a chip manufacturer to produce a
higher peak hp number on the dyno for a couple of short bursts on a cold
night, but quickly turns to predetonation and power loss which is
damaging to the pistons and cylinders under sustained real world
conditions. For example, a stock U.S. 88 is programmed at 17.2 degrees of
total advance at full throttle at 6000 rpm. If you are one of the few
88/89s that came with a factory 1267355358 chip, it will be programmed at
23.1 degrees. A chip programmer such as that I have referenced increased
that ignition advance to over 32-33 degrees at 6000. That may work fine
with 93 octane on a cool day for a few short spurts, but we've found it
too prone to predetonate. Especially with the decline in the quality of
premium octane fuel available in the last couple of years, this presents
a problem. I find 27 to 29 degrees here provides the best balance of
performance and saftey. Don't forget that Porsche conservatively programs
their chip to operate under the worst operating conditions and a
potentially mistuned car with regular octane fuel, and limits the amount
of fuel injected to comply with U.S. emissions requirements. So there are
regions of improvement available, especially in the mid rpm regions and
the part throttle fuel and ignition maps. Just comparing the fuel maps of
a U.S. spec 3.2 to that of a European one shows what Porsche would have
programmed the car to if it were not for American emissions limits.
Without sounding too commercial here, generally I charge $230, standard
or custom with a money back guarantee. Feel free to contact me if you
have any questions.
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For years now, I'm sure some of us have wondered about what makes a
Carrera Clubsport 3.2 motor any different than a typical Carrera. We all
know it's a stripped down lighter model that cost more and has hollow
valves (option M637) with a higher rev limit of 6840 programmed in the
chip. And it's supposed to be quite a bit quicker than a stock 3.2 But
I've read speculations from different folks who think the engine is
balanced and blueprinted by the Factory, specially handpicked after being
dynoed off the assembly line, and it has a special DME with a special
performance programmed chip with the motor producing something like 250
hp over the factory 207-217.

Wil Ferch, one of our Pelican members here was kind enough to send me the
chip from his friend's '85 Clubsport for a chip dump and analysis. The
first thing that was peculiar was that it contained a 28 pin chip in a
Bosch DME box that came on the later 88-89 3.2s. The only differences
between an 84-86 24 pin box and the later 28 pin boxes are a different
chip socket, and the placement of some jumpers in different locations to
address the larger memory of the 28 pin chips.

The chip number of this chip is 1267355330. This number alone is a bit
unique in that all 28 pin chips on U.S. cars are either the more common
1267355357, or the more aggressive 1267355358. I had some time tonight to
review this 330 chip and found indeed it is factory programmed with a
6840 rev limit, as opposed to the standard 6540 limit. But the real
surprise came when I did a byte by byte comparison with the standard 358
chip. Other than the rev limit hex value being different, there were NO
other differences between the binaries. In other words, the Clubsport
chip is basically identical in every way to the U.S. factory 358 chip
that came on some 88-89 3.2s. So does the Clubsport motor produce any
more power? Maybe a little if it was blueprinted, but I kind of doubt it.
I think the stripping of weight was the key factor responsible for the
increase in acceleration. Bear in mind though, the factory 358 chip only
came on some U.S. 88-89s and was quite a bit more agressive than the 357
chip, and the chips that were programmed for the 84-86s. So if you raced
for example, a stock 86 against the stripped Clubsport, of course the
Clubsport will outrun it. Also note, that a European Clubsport is
different with a higher CR like all the 3.2s are there, so they of course
are a bit different. European's don't have to contend with U.S. EPA
regulations, and a chip analysis of a European chip shows a much more
aggressive fuel map throughout - read more power and torque.

So can the Clubsport/358 chip be improved upon? Sure it can. Though it is
Porsche's most agressive chip, it is no where as aggressive as some of
the performance chips out there. Even a modified factory European chip
will outperform here. The part throttle ignition and fuel maps have room
for improvement, and some folks who replaced the 358 chip in their 88s
with a chip I supplied them noticed a nice increase in power and
response.

Here are the screenshots of the chip dump: (see bookmark)

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Tom, could you check and let me know which chip you have in your CS? The
last digits are 330 then it can give me official confirmation on the chip
I just dumped. If I had to recommend a chip, it would have to be mine,
since I've intergrated all the best parts of chips from different
manufacturers, (Autothority, Weltmeister, the 358 chip, and the factory
European chip in one). I spent considerable time going through several
iterations of the mapping with input from many owners trying to get the
maximum motor output without harmful predetonation. We've found that most
chips cause excessive predetonation with much too aggressive ignition
timing, or are too rich on the bottom end and too lean on the top - also
causing predetonation. And all chips are not the same - they are all so
drastically different.

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You say the 3.2's produce a given quantity of fuel at Wide open throttle
( WOT), based on the preprogrammed schedule, unlike the 3.6's . I'm
assuming we're talking stock chips, right?
Also, whether stock chips or not, doesn't the 3.2 DME box have a
screw-driver adjustable action, through a rubber plug...a seven position
switch I believe, which alters the fuel and ignition outputs by given
steps ?? If so, wouldn't even a stock set up, given a "tweak" to add some
ignition advance and 3% more fuel ( say, via one of the switch positions)
....yield more hp with an opened air-box?

Wil, the 3.2s have a full throttle fuel map which ignores the O2 sensor
and injects a preprogrammed quantity of fuel. It is programmed to run
rich at the peak power ratio of 12.5:1 to 13.0:1 afr. This is opposed to
the stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 which is the ratio of minimum
emissions and a fair compromise between maximum power and maximum fuel
efficiency. This pretty much is with all fuel injected cars, German,
American or Japanese. Drivers are not expected to be in the full throttle
region very often, so fuel is programmed more for power than emissions.
If the O2 sensor was not ignored at full throttle - such as if your full
throttle switch was not activating at the throttle body, the computer
will lean the afr back to stoichiometric, killing your power and
increasing your chances of predetonation. Even aftermarket chips have
this full throttle map. Since this map is fixed, if you do significant
mods to your car, such as porting, or SSIs, this map needs to be modified
accordingly, or you will be injecting the same amount of fuel as a stock
motor when you gun it. Fuel is power, and trying to make the engine pump
more air without giving it the additional fuel needed will just lean your
mixture.

The fuel quality switch, you are talking about is primarily used for
addressing the possibility of poor fuel quality in different countries,
not for performance improvements. The options are fuel enrichment in
postion 2 and 3, to help reduce predetonation with poor quality fuel.
Problem is it richens the fuel everywhere, instead of select regions.
Position 4 leans your mixture by 2-4 %, 5 retards your ignition to
compensate for predetonation with bad gas, and 6,7, and 8 are various
combinations of increased fuel and ignition retard to deal with even
worse fuel. You can actually measure and smell the changes in the afr at
the exhaust when you play with this switch.

This is VERY good information...I think I hit a gold mine with you !
OK..I understand....the problem with the switch is that the alteration is
done throughout the rev range...not just in selected areas. Still..if (
say) you click to a position that increases fuel by 3%...does that mean
that the "pre-programmed" WOT positon is now also increased by 3%...or
does this switch NOT alter the WOT programming? See the subtlety?

Also can you confirm these as being the switch functions? :
FUEL IGNITION
pos 1 0 0 stock position
pos 2 +3% 0
pos 3 +6% 0
pos 4 -3% 0
pos 5 0 - 3 deg
pos 6 +3% -3 deg
pos 7 +6% -3 deg
pos 8 -3% -3 deg

Also, when facing the rubber plug where the screwdriver is inserted....is
full clockwise position "1" or "8" ???

Would also be interested in the basis for your answer ( reverse
engineering by you?...factory manual?).

Wil, position 1 is full counterclockwise. Different Motronic boxes have
different ignition and fuel configurations in each of the different
postions, so YMMV. In general, the Fuel Quality Switch allows the DME to
adapt both the fuel mixture and ignition timing for the quality of
gasoline available. The FQS allows the user to correct fuel related
engine problems. It will not increase the performance of your engine as
any fuel adjustment would not increase fuel enough in the necessary
regions, while increasing it too much in the majority, and if the switch
was in a postion where the ignition was also adjusted, it would just be
retarded, reducing performance. Proper performance tuning involves
ignition advance in various scale from between 5 to 15 degrees throughout
the different maps.

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1. The O2 sensor is a probe that is put in the exhaust air stream before
the cat. If I remember correctly, the O2 sensor has 2 platinum surfaces
sandwitched with some material inbetween. The difference of oxygen in the
exhaust vs. the outside air creates a small fluctuating dc voltage
(usually between .25 to .75V) that is sent to the computer and tells it
to slightly ajust the average mixture level to get stochiometry.

2. The O2 sensor was made so the cat would work better.
The reason why the mixture fluctuates is because the cat works best when
the mixture switches from a little lean to a little rich(many times a
second).
This ensures the cat stays clean and has enough O2 stored for the times
of heavy acceleration when there is little O2. The cat has platinum
and/or paladium honeycomb/balls inside which converts any unburned gasses
to CO2 and water.
The closer the O2 sensor and cat are to the engine, the faster they warm
up and work efficiently.

3. The O2 sensor voltage shifts from high to low too rapidly to be read
with even some cheaper scanners: the sample refresh rate is just not fast
enough to pick up the number of cross-counts(how many times the high/low
voltage changes per/sec).
Even though the high and low voltages may still be good, the O2 may not
shift fast enough and can be called a "lazy O2 sensor".

4. The O2 sensor after the cat is manatory for 1996 OB2 and later. This
one basically tells the computer how well the cat is working. If the
voltage is the same as the one before the cat the computer will set a
code.
OBD2 also does self-checks("monitors") with the sensors by richening the
mixture/opening the EGR etc.. and seeing if the O2/ MAP voltage follows.

[vove]

Wish he could of made one earlier, I've just purchased and installed a factory RSR chip. :evil:

[86911TLCAB]

i would be interested for 230, but the site says the price is 375? can we get a special dorki hookup?

[LPM911]

i would be interested for 230, but the site says the price is 375? can we get a special dorki hookup?

http://pic.phyrefile.com/s/st/stevanford/2009/11/16/holy20thread20resurrection.jpg

check out the date on the original post. 2003. that should explain the price difference.

[markwemple]

If you look at the price of bulk manufactured chips (and the fact he's still making them) its a bargain. I think the rate for my xc70 is well over a grand and the chip for the 85.5 '44 is NLA.

[Jazzbass]

If you look at the price of bulk manufactured chips (and the fact he's still making them) its a bargain.

What does that mean or have to do with the cost of chip? :?

[markwemple]

I don't consider welmeister, etc. to be in the same group as Wong or a friend of mine who does the quattro chips, which are also by hand and per customer requirements. I guess I consider custom to be worth more than generic.

[86911TLCAB]

well hell batman how did that happen?

[Jazzbass]

I don't consider welmeister, etc. to be in the same group as Wong or a friend of mine who does the quattro chips, which are also by hand and per customer requirements. I guess I consider custom to be worth more than generic.
OK, that makes a bit more sense. That said, Wong's standard chip isn't custom by any stretch in the sense that it was tuned specifically for your car. He's got standard maps that he's developed over the years for Carreras, 964s, whatever. He'll burn you a custom chip specifically for your car if you send him dynos, but that service costs way more than $375 or whatever he's getting for his standard chips.

Your $375 is for his "generic" or "bulk" chip, just like a Weltmeister. You pay for his engineering time spent developing the maps which are (arguably) better than a Weltmeister, hence the higher cost. But there's nothing custom about it. Sure, the chip itself will be burned by hand. For such a low volume application, so will any chip from Weltmeister or even Porsche for that matter.

[Elfer]

How much more horsepower do you get with this chip?

[BlackTalon]

How much more horsepower do you get with this chip?At what RPM? WOT, or 'around town RPMs'?

[Trak Ratt]

Plenty of dyno sheets for G-50 3.2s on the web site.

[Elfer]

Plenty of dyno sheets for G-50 3.2s on the web site.

doh! browsed right past it! found it now. thanks.

[Dr K]

Like everything in our cars, you can't separate out some of the enhancements. To get more than a modest bang, you need to enhance the exhaust system, and (if you're not racing "stock" class) the cams, too. Then chip for your current setup and (I've heard) you will get a noticeable improvement.