View Full Version : 3.0 into 911E advice needed for local porsche nut
chuckw911e
07-11-2003, 02:58 PM
Hello,
I have a 1969 911E that I am trying to get on the road. Basically I've installed a 3.0 SC motor and 70/71 transmission.
Check out this threadhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116491 on the Pelican Parts BBS for some background on the project. I'm looking for advice from local porschephiles on how I can get this project on the road. I've posted a similar message on the Potomac PCA page in hopes of gathering more info. I'm thinking about ditching the CIS injection and getting new PMO Carbs and Electromotive ignition. I've consulted with a number of mechanics in the area and they either don't want to help or they want big bucks to take on the project since they don't know what is involved...which I can't fault them for. So my idea is to try and do parts of this myself...such as dropping the motor, installing the carbs...running the fuel lines. I'm a bit unsure about the wiring. 911 wire diagrams are a bit confusing. Apparently the transplant that I've start is a bit more complicated than others...that I should have started with a 70+ car because the 14 pin connection would have been easier as would the transmission, but I didn't know that. Oh well.
Car is sitting patiently in the garage waiting for parts.
Any help to me on the road (advice, moral support, tech hints) are appreciated! I have a big garage (though not a big metric tool collection yet).
Chuck
Annapolis, Maryland
Charlie Stylianos
07-11-2003, 03:05 PM
Chuck,
I saw your post on Pelican a couple weeks ago and Tysons response re: the 14 pin connector, etc. Definitely a project!! I'd be willing to help if needed. The 6pin->14pin harness adapter and wire and routing are going to be the fun part. If your mechanic won't/can't make the adapter, I'll parse through the wiring diagrams and help figure out what's what.
chuckw911e
07-11-2003, 04:44 PM
Charlie,
Any help is much appreciated. I just posted an update to the pelican thread. I've identified some of the wires. My wires and connectors are on the way, so I'll see what I have to work with when it gets here. I saw your rebuild project, looks good.
Part 1 will be an engine transmission drop so that I can access the back panel with the wires and install the carbs/linkage and do the fuel lines.
Nothing is fully connected so it should be a matter of 4 bolts (motor and trans mounts) to drop the motor. The pictures using the Sears ATV jack are great, I may just have to get one of those. BTW, how many inches does the car have to be in the air to get the motor out. I have Snap On jack stands that are pretty beefy, not sure exactly how high they extend though.
Take care,
Chuck
Chuck,
I saw your post on Pelican a couple weeks ago and Tysons response re: the 14 pin connector, etc. Definitely a project!! I'd be willing to help if needed. The 6pin->14pin harness adapter and wire and routing are going to be the fun part. If your mechanic won't/can't make the adapter, I'll parse through the wiring diagrams and help figure out what's what.
Marc A
07-12-2003, 05:43 AM
Chuck:
Rear end has to be between 30 and 36 inches high as measured to the bumper.
Best if you have 2 jacks to lift car at the same time.
You are welcome to borrow the engine/tranny jacks and pallet after the weekend of the 19th (lots of engine drop action lately) assuming that Charlie is still in the reconstructing mode :wink:
Let me know if I can help.
chuckw911e
07-14-2003, 01:02 PM
Marc,
Thanks for the info. Sounds like I may need some cinder blocks or something under the jack stands to get to 36 inches.
Dropping the engine/trans will be the first step so that I can see what type of wiring I'm up against.
Also I'll have better access to the motor to mount the carbs, et al.
Chuck
Chuck:
Rear end has to be between 30 and 36 inches high as measured to the bumper.
Best if you have 2 jacks to lift car at the same time.
You are welcome to borrow the engine/tranny jacks and pallet after the weekend of the 19th (lots of engine drop action lately) assuming that Charlie is still in the reconstructing mode :wink:
Let me know if I can help.
Marc A
07-14-2003, 01:26 PM
Yep you will need 2 cinder blocks and 2- 2x8s to sit on top.
Remember that cinder blocks have no load capacity on the solid sides, therefor the board are placed over the holes to support the jack stands.
Charlie Stylianos
07-16-2003, 10:26 PM
Chuck,
I was reading the Sept. Excellence tonight and saw the following tech question:
3.0 SC engine in a 1966 911?
Here are the main points.
- Change fuel pump to a 3.0 SC fuel pump.
- Adapt fuel line (?) and make sure line from pump to engine has the in-line fuel accumulator and filter from sc. (don’t know if you need accumulator for carbs)
- 3.0 sc engine wiring harness.
- New flywheel to adapt early tranny/clutch to 3.0 engine
Kennedy Engineered Products for flywheel.
805-272-1147 www.kennedyeng.com
Short reply, unfortunately......
chuckw911e
07-17-2003, 05:33 PM
Thanks for this reply. Actually I was sitting on the can when I read this advice. I really want to write a letter to Excellence suggesting that it really isn't that simple for a number of reasons. Hopefully the writer of that letter will do some research (which I did not) before setting out to do such a swap. The wiring will be a pain, but the thing that isn't mentioned is the fuel system. The early cars with carbs were set up for low fuel pressures. CIS has much higher pressures. My concern is that fabricating adapters won't cut it, that over time those hoses will fail and spray fuel on a hot motor.
Anyway, here's the lastest. I ordered a set of brand spankin new PMO carbs today. They should be here in a week or so. The fuel system set for carbs looks relatively easy. The part I'm worried about is pulling the intake manifold studs and putting in longer studs for the carb manifolds. I've read stories about the exhaust studs snapping but I suppose we'll see how it goes.
Chuck,
I was reading the Sept. Excellence tonight and saw the following tech question:
3.0 SC engine in a 1966 911?
Here are the main points.
- Change fuel pump to a 3.0 SC fuel pump.
- Adapt fuel line (?) and make sure line from pump to engine has the in-line fuel accumulator and filter from sc. (don’t know if you need accumulator for carbs)
- 3.0 sc engine wiring harness.
- New flywheel to adapt early tranny/clutch to 3.0 engine
Kennedy Engineered Products for flywheel.
805-272-1147 www.kennedyeng.com
Short reply, unfortunately......
Charlie Stylianos
07-17-2003, 05:44 PM
Chcuk,
The Snap-On collet type stud removal tool was what we used to remove the head studs.....they came out like butter. Once you have the CIS off, some direct heat (Propane/MAPP gas) inside the intake ports, directed at the stud holes, will help expand the Al. a bit to help ease those stubborn studs out.
Marc A
07-17-2003, 10:09 PM
Chuck:
Apply carefully some pb blast to the studs and they should come right out. The manifold studs are not exposed to the same heat as the exhaust studs and should not be as stubborn.
Remember try to break it loose by slightly tightening the stud first, then remove.
Nice choice on the PMOs.
Marc
chuckw911e
07-18-2003, 09:17 AM
I read a couple threads about stud removal and saw "PB blast" mentioned. Is this something I can get a "Pep Boys" or something I should order?
Yeah, the PMOs look really nice. Difficult to explain to the fiance however. We have a '71 Chevy Pickup and she bought a carb for that a while back for a couple hundred dollars. She doesn't understand why "porsha" carbs cost so much more :)
Chuck:
Apply carefully some pb blast to the studs and they should come right out. The manifold studs are not exposed to the same heat as the exhaust studs and should not be as stubborn.
Remember try to break it loose by slightly tightening the stud first, then remove.
Nice choice on the PMOs.
Marc
chuckw911e
07-18-2003, 09:23 AM
I was on the Snap-On website and couldn't figure out which tool is need. Would you happen to know the part number? Or perhaps does Sears sell something similar.
Re: Heat. I'll have to learn more about using heat to remove studs, never done that before.
Chcuk,
The Snap-On collet type stud removal tool was what we used to remove the head studs.....they came out like butter. Once you have the CIS off, some direct heat (Propane/MAPP gas) inside the intake ports, directed at the stud holes, will help expand the Al. a bit to help ease those stubborn studs out.
Marc A
07-18-2003, 09:31 AM
PB Blast is available at the Trac Auto type stores (Auto Advantage now I think).
Charlie Stylianos
07-18-2003, 11:30 AM
Extractor Housing:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=hand&item_ID=10321&group_ ID=1249&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
Collet for housing (need to know size/pitch of stud):
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=hand&item_ID=10350&group_ ID=1249&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
Justin Fischer
07-18-2003, 02:43 PM
Ahhhhh, PMO's. Everytime I rebuild my Webers, PMO's seem more and more reasonably priced.
If you need to borrow any carb tools, let me know. My list is under the loaner tools section.
-Justin
Jase007
07-18-2003, 05:05 PM
Justin:
How often are you (do you have to) rebuild your Webers? What size / model are they? (40 ida, etc...). Just curious.
Jason
Justin Fischer
07-21-2003, 09:06 AM
Justin:
How often are you (do you have to) rebuild your Webers? What size / model are they? (40 ida, etc...). Just curious.
Jason
Hey Jason,
They are 40 IDA's, and I haven't had any problems with them in the last 18 months, but the 18 months before that I probably rebuilt them 3-4 times. I had a rusted tank, because the car was in storage for 10 years, and it took me a little while to pinpoint the problem.
-Justin
chuckw911e
07-25-2003, 01:51 PM
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/onstands1059155498.jpg
Thanks for the replies. A fellow that lives down the street is going to help with this project. I may be able to do all of this with only a partial engine drop. First thing will be to remove the CIS and install the carbs. At the same time I'll need to mount the trigger wheels for the electromotive setup. Just ordered the HPX setup from Clewett engineering. I bought the kit, new ignition wires and a platform to mount the electromotive system between the carbs. Perhaps I'm naive but from speaking with Rick Clewett the installation should not be too hard as there are only a couple of wires to worry about (power, ground, tach, sensor wire, and relay to ignition switch) and of course the 6 ignition wires. Last Friday I hit "keno" at the local pub...which will help finance this adventure. Bought a floor jack last Saturday morning.
chuckw911e
07-26-2003, 10:48 PM
Pulled the CIS system today with the engine in the car. Wasn't too bad. Having a 12mm swivel head socket made the job easier. To get the system out I did have to drop the motor 3 inches or so for clearance.
chuckw911e
07-30-2003, 10:39 AM
Last night I worked with a buddy to removed the 12 intake studs. A stud extractor makes the job easy! Luckily he had one. On two of the studs we "double-nutted" them out, but other than that they came out easily.
Next step will be mount the electromotive pulley wheel. I'll also need to put in the new intake studs. I think while I have the engine mount bar off and engine tin that I'll paint them both flat black.
Chuck
Marc A
07-30-2003, 07:09 PM
Chuck:
I would replace the exhaust studs with stainless steel. I think that ARP sells them.
chuckw911e
08-01-2003, 09:27 AM
Marc,
That's probably a good idea. The heat exchangers are already mounted. So this is a project for down the road. And I have many of them. I purchased shocks and sway bars for the car, they will have to be installed once the car is rolling down the road.
Today I received the PMOs and the electromotive set up. Both pieces are very nice, can't wait to install the new toys.
Chuck
Chuck:
I would replace the exhaust studs with stainless steel. I think that ARP sells them.
Marc A
08-01-2003, 11:10 AM
Right . . . no sence messing with the hot side until absolutlely required 8)
chuckw911e
08-06-2003, 02:39 PM
Marc,
I received the PMOs and the electromotive set up. Both pieces are very nice, can't wait to install the new toys.
The PMO kit comes with a pressure regulation device that allows one to use the stock electric pump (in my case the MFI pump). After confering with some folks on the PP BBS I think I'm going to start there and go to a different pump latter on if I need to. Question is that the fuel from the pump to the back of the car will be under pressure. Where should the fuel filter go? I sold the stock 911e fuel filter console with the old motor.
The kit comes with two smaller fuel filters that mount before the carbs, but I think I need an additional big fuel filter either before or after the regulation device.
chuckw911e
08-12-2003, 11:11 AM
Update:
Last night the new intake manifold studs and the new crank pulley (with trigger wheel) was installed. Next project will be the wiring for the electromotive system, alternator and starter plus the gauges (tach, oil pressure, oil temp, alternator warning and oil idiot light). After that will be the carbs, carb linkage and clutch linkage. Guess I also need to make sure the backup lights work, the speedo drive cable is connected and replace the trans ground strap. What an endeavor.! :)
chuckw911e
08-28-2003, 09:57 AM
Hi,
I posted a question to the PP forum...one response...any thoughts from you guys on this one?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125089
Working on the wiring to install '82 motor (with internal alternator regulator) into '69 911E
There are a number of wires coming out of the alternator housing:
heavy red - to starter
thin red - to ?
blue - to guage
brown 1 - to ground
brown 2 - to ground
brown 3 - to ground
Looking at this previously uploaded schematic, it is unclear to me where the thin red should go, and what is its purpose?
The diagram shows that the thin red goes through T14 14 (14 pin connector) to "III25" What is that?
Is it connected into the ignition so the wire is hot when the key is on to excite the regulator?
Returning to my car, where should I route this thin red wire? Perhaps I can use a relay, so when the key is on this wire is hot?
Thanks for any clues!
Chuck
William Miller
09-02-2003, 01:51 PM
I am rebuilding my car and will look at the harness tonight.
I have a euro version cabrolet.
I was cleaning and re-taping the engine harness the other day. I don't recall a thin red wire, but I'll look again.
I'm trying to think what the USA car had that mine doesn't.
William Miller
09-02-2003, 01:55 PM
Looking at your post again:
The III25 is refering to page 3 of the elecrtical diagram and 25 along the bottom of the page. If you find this spot look up and you should find a simular referance (In a little rectanglular box.) back to the spot where you saw the red wire. My guess is somewhere on page one.
William Miller
09-02-2003, 02:11 PM
lOOKING AT YOUR LINK:
lOOKING AT THE DIAGRAM YOU PUT IN YOUR LINK CONFIRMS TO ME THAT YOU NEED TO TURN TO PAGE 3 AND GO TO LINE 25 iT SHOULD HAVE A BOX THAT HAS (I8) in it.
(Sorry about the capps)
I looked at PP wiring diagram. Thiers is not exactly the same as yours.
Their's shows the line running across the top of the page to the next page. I think it ultimately ends up on a fuse in the engine compartment. (The 3 fuse block.) This may go to the heater fan on the engine. I looked up III25 and that refers to the rear window defroster. (I don't have that because mine's a convertable.)
If you have page 3 you will find your answer!
chuckw911e
09-05-2003, 09:46 AM
If you have page 3 you will find your answer!
William,
Thanks for your series of replies. After looking at the diagrams and consulting with others, the thin wire does go to the heater motor...which is no longer there...so I don't need this wire at all. We are going to tape it off should I need juice for an accessory in the future. I am happy that this motor has the internal voltage regulator--that simplifies things a bit.
In terms of a project update we have finished the wiring for the electromotive system, electromotive system relay and alternator. Next step will be to tidy up the wires and wire the guages (oil temp, oil pressure, idiot light, alternator, tach). Will need to finish connecting the clutch linkage (note: I needed a new throttle linkage from the bellhousing to the motor--the part from the 69 MFI system was too short). I also have a set of used half shafts to install...I think mine are toast--boots are all torn up. Then the carbs/fuel system. Hope to make big progress this weekend.
Chuck
William Miller
09-08-2003, 12:05 PM
My SC has a small fuse holder with the relays in the engine compartment.
The red wire goes there. It has 3 fuses.
Usually they are for the heater blower and relay and rear de-foger.
Mine does not have the defoger because it's a convertable.
One of the fuses was for an A/C relay which switched a fan on an A/C condensor in the left rear wheel well. I removed this last weekend while my engine was out because it was really easy to get to it. The fan was trashed anyway.
My engine is ready to go back in tomarrow. I'm waiting on an overnight with a new clutch disk.
Hope your's goes well!
chuckw911e
09-09-2003, 11:56 AM
[quote="William Miller"]My SC has a small fuse holder with the relays in the engine compartment.
The red wire goes there. It has 3 fuses. quote]
Great, mystery solved. The diagrams don't always tell the story :)
Here's a picture of my motor, still working on clutch and carb linkage:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/82pmoelectro1062955910.jpg
Should fire it up any day now!!
William Miller
09-09-2003, 12:47 PM
Looks fast!
Do you still have the old CIS parts? What year was it?
I think you mentioned that you are not using the heater. Was any of the heater ducts still on the engine.
I need the left plastic cover that has the round duct takeoff that goes to the heater fan. Mine broke the arm off that attaches it to the block on the bottom.
There may be some other pieces that are valuable. One man's junk is another man's treasure!
Hope to see you / it running soon!
chuckw911e
09-10-2003, 11:36 AM
There may be some other pieces that are valuable. One man's junk is another man's treasure!
This is true. Actually I sold the CIS system on Ebay...I don't have the heater system...as I have back dated the heat ducts...don't have the old ones. I also sold the CD box and distributor and a CIS fuel pump. I do have a fuel filter/fuel accumulator console and line sitting on the workbench...but I'm sure you already have one of those.
Later!
William Miller
09-10-2003, 11:39 AM
Thanks anyway! It was worth a try!
William Miller
09-11-2003, 02:40 PM
The beast, She's alive!
Break in drive last night on the back roads to Fredirick. Cloud of smoke behind me. Feels good but I got a major oil leak somewhere.
It was too late and too dark to track it down. Coasted back in my garage, engine off arround midnight.
I think it's probably the oil line adapter or the new line on the left side.
I hope something simple.
chuckw911e
10-12-2003, 01:01 PM
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/30motorrunning1065977066.jpg
Quick update, the motor is alive! Still need to fix the pedal cluster and adjust linkage to carbs (and of course fine tune the carbs).
Started on the first try and the motor sounds mean!
Hope to be on the road soon.
Later.
Chuck
cmartin
10-12-2003, 05:58 PM
Good news Chuck. I gotta see the beast, I'm in Severna Park. :)
chuckw911e
10-13-2003, 08:28 AM
Good news Chuck. I gotta see the beast, I'm in Severna Park. :)
Sure, come on down. My email is cwillmarth@aota.org
Later.
William Miller
10-14-2003, 09:33 AM
Looks great!
Send us a sound bite! or byte?
chuckw911e
10-14-2003, 03:50 PM
Looks great!
Send us a sound bite! or byte?
I have a short MPG file with sound/video...but don't have anywhere to "host it." With the pictures I use a link to the pelican site...
Justin Fischer
10-14-2003, 04:35 PM
That looks mean, 3.0/electromotive/PMO's, I need that motor in my 914, the 2.7/3.0 bug has been gnawing at me lately. If you ever want to back date just let me know I've got a 2.0E, we can swap. How hard was the electromotive setup??
Can't wait to see it in person.
-Justin
chuckw911e
10-15-2003, 05:12 PM
That looks mean, 3.0/electromotive/PMO's, I need that motor in my 914, the 2.7/3.0 bug has been gnawing at me lately. If you ever want to back date just let me know I've got a 2.0E, we can swap. How hard was the electromotive setup??
Can't wait to see it in person.
-Justin
Justin,
Funny that you mention having a 2.0E motor. I swapped my 2.0E motor for the 3 liter...a guy with a 914 wanted to build a 914-6 with a 2.0 motor...apparently because of some racing class restrictions or something. Swapping back to a 2.0 would be easy but perhaps not desireable :) A 3.0 in a 914, now that would be fun!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/Web%20triggerwheel1061674342.jpg
The electromotive setup was relatively simple but took awhile.
1. remove distributor, install distributor plug and sensor (easy)
2. remove engine pulley and install new pulley. Not as easy...but once it was installed I had to pull of the new pulley and grind on the engine mount bar for some additional clearance. (annoying!) Getting the "air gap" between the trigger wheel and sensor is important but was fairly easy to adjust.
3. wiring - again, pretty simple. (easier than expected, but time consuming) Before I bought the unit I had a brief email exchange with Clewett and this is how he explained it:
>Secure the sensor wire so that its not flopping around on the engine or
> ingested
> into the fan. Plug the sensor wire into the HPX routing the wire away
> form
> the spark plug wires. Now for wiring the HPX. Included in our complete
> kits
> (9001-XXX) is a power relay. You need to run power from the battery
> relay.
> The red wire also connects to the relay. Connect the black wire to a
> good
> chassis ground. BTW, make sure you have a good ground on the engine
> (ground
> strap between the body and transmission). Now you need to find a
> switched
> power lead in the engine compartment and take it to the relay to
> activate
> the relay. The other lead on the relay goes to ground. This can be the
> same
> power source that was used for the stock ignition system. The HPX
> should
> work at this point. For the tach output, most 911s have a black wire
> with a
> purple stripe which goes from the engine compartment to the tach.
> Attach
> this wire to the terminal on the HPX. On cars earlier than 78 a tach
> adapter
> will be required for the original tach to work or you can put in a
> late
> model tach.
I had the actual electromotive instructions (which are also available on the clewett website) and interestly they were a bit different than the final instructions from clewett for wiring the relay, here is what we used and it worked fine:
"on The relay harness, the black lead is battery, either the blue or green go to the red on the HPX, white to ground and the red to switched ignition."
Basically the colors on the relay harness were different than what was in the book.
Basically it wasn't very difficult and Clewett provided the ignition settings and recommended a plug gap and plugs for the motor. And it worked on the first shot. I did have to replace my 911e tach with an SC tach and that works as well. In the end I decided this was an easier solution than trying to figure out wiring up the 6pin CD box and getting my distributor recurved and/or rebuilt. Plus it looks cool :)
One these days I'll have to get to one of the group's actvities to shoe you guys this project. I was thinking about going to the Chesapeake Challenge this weekend but the car will not be ready in time...still need more work on the throttle linkage and pedal cluster and tuning the carbs.
Can't wait to see how fast it is once it's all dialed in. Right now first gear is somewhat useless...tires come loose quickly. Giving it throttle in 2nd and 3rd the back end squatts down, front end lifts and it scoots on down the road like a rocket ship. I suppose I could have had the same effect in a Mustang GT or something for much less time and money...but that just wouldn't be the same thing.... :)
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