Lift for Summit Point Barn

[BikePump]

Gang
We are planning on having the concrete slab laid in the barn come February and one of the things i need to do in advance is determine which lift I will purchase. I did a bit of digging and found a few different options but I am looking for recommendations or commentary on the ones I found...

dont be shy ! :rolleyes:

Lift Options
http://www.directlift.com/Two-Post-Lift-DL9-P73C8.aspx#MoreDetails
http://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/two-post-lifts/xpr-10-lp.aspx
http://www.dannmar.com/dannmar-products/two-post-lifts/brigadier-10CX.asp
http://www.challengerlifts.com/CL10series.shtml
http://www.bestbuyautoequipment.com/Car-Lifts-s/410.htm

[blipshift]

1 for bendpak

[Potomac-Greg]

Bendpak. Great product and support (product support). Then you need to decide if you go with a full on post lift or some lesser scissor lift.

Word of warning: If you make the garage facility TOO good, there's a virtual certainty that at some point someone will have a car half disassembled on the lift and will be waiting for a part, so the garage will be occupied and useless until that part comes, and the owner gets the time to come out there ... Maybe post a sign that any property left for more than 3 days becomes property of the owner!

[HoodPin]

+2 for Bendpak. I have a 4-post lift and been very happy with it. It gets lots of use.

However, FWIW, you may want to consider the safety merits of 2- versus 4-post lifts. 2-post lifts definitely provide easier access for certain jobs, especially wheel/brake/suspension work. But 2-post lifts can be a bit more precarious if you're not careful about car placement & balance. Plenty of examples via the Google...
44283

4-post lifts are much more stable. And via jacking bridge (available from most lift manufacturers) and clever placement of jackstands, its easily possible to get all 4 wheels in the air.

If there's a lot of public use planned for the lift, think about liability.

[N0tt0N]

Slab the entire property now.

[roundel]

Manor Motor Werks endorses Bendpack.

[Trak Ratt]

Love my 9K lb. asymmetrical Rotary!

44284

[BlackTalon]

Bendpak here (well, in pieces waiting for an install in 2015). Heard nothing but good things about the Challenger lifts.

[ducatithunder]

Tony makes a good point. Adding a lift and allowing others to use it will prob leave alot of liability on you guys. Alot of people have and know how to use the lifts but it only takes on person to ruin it and get hurt. It really comes down to the install and if something happens and anchors pull out, the car falls, then regardless of users fault it will fall on you. IF you have been to a Auto Skills Center associated with the DoD you will see the the emphasis they put on using the lifts safely and properly.

Two post lift with the overhead support is the way to go. Having to work around the hump style two posts suck. Alot of the cobra guys have either bendpak or Greg Smith lifts. I havent heard any complaints about the Bendpak units. Cant beat the price of the GS lifts.

A scissor lift is nice for brake and tire work. Kinda sucks for any work with a engine in the front and rwd. Great for older pcars and minis from my experience. Alot safer to use vs the 2 post. 4 post is nice to get under the car but makes wheel/brake work difficult with out all the attachments.

[BlackTalon]

As far as liability goes, I'm sure they will have a liability policy for a couple $ mil anyway, even if there is not a lift on the property. So they should be covered if something happens. (plus I'm sure their attorney can/ will come up with the PCA-like waiver form)

[ducatithunder]

Still having the lift professionally installed might not be a bad idea. With the shames going around the legal system right now a little CYA can go a long way.

[Vicegrip]

Use by non trained users should not be considered. Period. ALI has instruction books on lift use and lift points for cars. Over 99% of auto lift failures are User error. Insurance or not lifting cars with no or little experience or training is a when not if thing IMO.

I maintain and inspect lifts and have Hunter, Challenger, Rotary, and a couple of odd ducks. Based on the 150 lifts I work on at work I would not recommend Challenger lifts. The ones I have are more problematic than the rest by a a good margin. In fact one issue is very troublesome. They use a less robust relay that tends to arc weld shut and the lift fails in the on/up condition. Not one of the other brands or models has ever done this but it is a 3 or 4 a year thing for the Challengers. Over all automotive lifts are durable low failure rate devices. Failure and injury is almost always from User error. X type lifts have a high user failure rate. They are more prone to tipping from uneven loading and load shifting.

I find 4 post lifts to be a royal pain for most things other than storage or wheel line up work. Always reaching over or ducking under something.


Home lift is a bend-pac. No issues with it but it loafs compared to dealer use levels.

[BlackTalon]

Heard nothing but good things about the Challenger lifts.

I maintain and inspect lifts and have Hunter, Challenger, Rotary, and a couple of odd ducks. Based on the 150 lifts I work on at work I would not recommend Challenger lifts. The ones I have are more problematic than the rest by a a good margin. In fact one issue is very troublesome. They use a less robust relay that tends to arc weld shut and the lift fails in the on/up condition. Not one of the other brands or models has ever done this but it is a 3 or 4 a year thing for the Challengers. Over all automotive lifts are durable low failure rate devices. Failure and injury is almost always from User error. X type lifts have a high user failure rate. They are more prone to tipping from uneven loading and load shifting.
I'd avoid Challenger lifts. I hear they have a lot of issues.

:lol:

It is nice having someone on Dorkiphus who works with way more of this stuff daily then most of us will ever touch in a lifetime (and no, that is NOT about Dr. K -- it's about VG)

[roundel]

+1 on requiring training. I have plenty of buddies that use my lift, but until they listen to my spiel and demonstrate they get it a few times, I supervise the lifting. I had one PhD try to locate the the lift pads on the frame rails instead of the lift points. I showed him how much the car teetered with the arms so close. Then made him lift it the right way. Having the arms spread wide was much more stable. Every time, I try to pull the car off the lift before I raise it over a few inches. Better to have the car fall off at 4" than 6'.

[Trak Ratt]

Should maybe have a "how-to" thread on lefts?? Or, make everyone come out to a PCA Tech and demonstrate they get it?

I got careless one night! Came out the next day and my lift was "stuttering" Seems I forgot to lower it to the first stop after raising it all the way up! So weight of car was resting on hydraulics instead of a hard stop :roll:

I try really hard not to do that anymore...

[BikePump]

My plan for the install is to have a professional do it all the way.

Yes we will have insurance to cover the lift. I also plan on having controlled access to the lift with a lock on the power (with remote control) along with a waiver and potentially damage deposit as well.

[Baywatch]

I found a great lift. Will help you install this weekend, ok?

[cmartin]

My plan for the install is to have a professional do it all the way.

Not a bad idea considering your use case. I'm not there yet but narrowed my search to a bendpak too. The XPR-10-LP has low arms to get under most cars and you can fit cars and trucks, just make sure it's installed with room to get a truck on symmetrically.

The only mechanical lift issue I've experienced is an equalization issue on a mohawk. Not sure of the exact cause but pressure leaks down sometimes and the arms get out of balance. Assuming the cable is in good shape that wont happen on a bendpak.

[Vicegrip]

My plan for the install is to have a professional do it all the way.



Yes we will have insurance to cover the lift. I also plan on having controlled access to the lift with a lock on the power (with remote control) along with a waiver and potentially damage deposit as well.

Install is not where the issues are. Post bolt pull out is something that people mention all the time as is how thick the concrete is but this often discussed stuff just is not an issue per the numbers. Improper loading and use is HUGE. All of hoodpin's images are cars that fell off lifts not lifts that fell over, broke a cable or hydro line or other mechanical issue. Someone screwed up. Cars don’t get antsy and twich when you poke in a cold finger or climb off lifts they fall of when the physics demand it. (This is not random ramblings. I have been taking the ALI Certified Lift Inspector training and get my data from the guys that certify certified lifts. It is a bit of a racket but thats another thread. ) A waver does not transfer liability. From what I have read and been told you cannot assign liability.

In my own experence I have watched a big bunch of car guys try their hand at loading their car on a lift during 7 years as a pca tech chair. Many smart people would do not smart things when untrained for this overall simple task. Even trained people would sometimes take shortcuts.
Most car owners do not know how to load their cars and trucks onto a lift, 2 or 4 post. They don't need to as most car owners don't have lifts or even use one now and then. Having a lift as part of a rental prop is not the same as having one in the back yard and you and your many newfound car guy buddies hanging out talking smack and stripping threads. A.L.I. has training info and might be able to better explain the legal issues involved.

My point is not so much to not offer access to a lift. It is to do so no one gets hurt. Might be a good idea to at least look into the risks offering a lift extends to your enterprise and ways to reduce this risk both physically and financially.

[Vicegrip]

I'd avoid Challenger lifts. I hear they have a lot of issues.

:lol:

It is nice having someone on Dorkiphus who works with way more of this stuff daily then most of us will ever touch in a lifetime (and no, that is NOT about Dr. K -- it's about VG)Sorry brother, did not intend to step on toes. ;) I only have one model of their lift but have 65 of them. I spend more time working on them than the rest combined and then some. Could be that the other versions are top notch as I dont have direct exp. What I hear from the local lift co is as a brand they are not the top pick so to speak.

The 70 Rotary in ground and above ground lifts I mess with have been good machines with few issues and no common ones.

I might not install Bend-pac in a high cap auto shop ether. My exp and take from others in the busness is they are great home lifts with good reach and low pad hights. I love mine even if it is a much dismissed floor plate type. Mohawk lifts are just simply overbuilt in many ways and under built in others. Overbuilt is not always a good thing. Bulky machine with larger than might be needed parts gets in the way a bit more than right sized might. All certified lifts can lift 3X rating without perm deformation. The pump and plumbing will not let it do this so beefy posts and arms does little.

[cmartin]

I love mine even if it is a much dismissed floor plate type.

That made me laugh. The floor plate sure is easier to work around than a set of jack stands, a creeper... :) I knocked over a transmission jack that was stuck on the floor plat once. Make sure you lower it all the way down before shoving it over the hump.

[ausgeflippt951]

Should maybe have a "how-to" thread on lefts?? Or, make everyone come out to a PCA Tech and demonstrate they get it?



Both of these are great ideas! I've only personally used a lift maybe a dozen times (I try and pass off lift-using duties to someone more capable whenever possible!) and each time it has been with a different brand of lift, each with its own operational nuances.

I'd love it if someone gave an official "how-to" at a tech session one day.

As far as I can tell, it's not the general procedure which people have issue with -- it's all those little "gotchas" and best practices which wind up spelling doom for uninitiated.

Would make a great article for dV, too (hint hint).

[Cliff Claven]

if the concern is user error resulting in cars falling off the lift, then would a four-post with proper rack jacks make sense from a liability standpoint?

[Potomac-Greg]

Let me make a pitch for a Bend Pak P6. It is often lumped with scissor lifts because it is similar in function. However, the P6 is two independent pads that allow the middle of the car to remain exposed. It's all you need for a rear-engined car, and it really only hinders access to the rocker area of a car. Like a scissor lift, it also does not lift very high.

It's not as useful as a two- or four-post lift; but when you consider that: (1) you want a simple, safer lift that can be used by unsupervised half-wits, and (2) you really only need to facilitate work typically done during a race weekend and NOT major work, then maybe something like the P6 makes sense.

And when not in use, the garage spot is unencumbered.

http://www.bendpak.com/P-6F-Pit-Lift.png?h=349

[ducatithunder]

It could also be mounted flush with the floor making thr space alot more useful. Thinking of the set up that jack olsen did in his garage build.

Jack's Garage Lift - YouTube

[Dr K]

The poster just above yours, too - very nicely placed at floor level i his garage (but he didn't tile over the top of it...)

[alw20147]

Let me make a pitch for a Bend Pak P6. It is often lumped with scissor lifts because it is similar in function. However, the P6 is two independent pads that allow the middle of the car to remain exposed. It's all you need for a rear-engined car, and it really only hinders access to the rocker area of a car. Like a scissor lift, it also does not lift very high.

It's not as useful as a two- or four-post lift; but when you consider that: (1) you want a simple, safer lift that can be used by unsupervised half-wits, and (2) you really only need to facilitate work typically done during a race weekend and NOT major work, then maybe something like the P6 makes sense.

And when not in use, the garage spot is unencumbered.

http://www.bendpak.com/P-6F-Pit-Lift.png?h=349




I have a gregsmith slp-7k full hight scissor lift. It can be embedded into a shallow pit in the concrete slab or sit on top. The lift is only 4.5 inches tall when lowered. I currently have the lift sitting on top of the slab. Plans are to cut into the slab and level the lift to the garage floor this coming fall.

I have had the lift for 3 years now and have had my full size Toyota Sienna Mini van, 996, and corolla on the lift and it was solid as a rock. Although this is a full height lift, i am only able to get the 996 52 inches hight from bottom of the oil pan to the concrete due to low my low garage ceiling.

Here is link http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Atlas-SLP-7K-Full-Rise-Scissor-Lift


Al

[Chopper Dropper]

Michael, review what kind of work folks are likely to do over a DE/race weekend. Most likely would be brakes, bearings IMO. Don't want major stuff clogging up the lift, though I have seen Dave Coleman pull a 911 gearbox out, fix and return to race I believe without missing a session, and I believe Hoodpin has also done a small fix overnight several times ;-) My 2 post has about 12 inches of concrete under the posts when the put the slab down, operator error barring a major earthquake ain't going to move that baby, does have the floor hump which one gets used to pretty quickly.
Dirk

[Mark in Baltimore]

Great thread. I'm in the market for a four post lift so I can house two cars, and have been researching Mohawk, Direct Lift, etc.

[Trak Ratt]

Great thread. I'm in the market for a four post lift so I can house two cars, and have been researching Mohawk, Direct Lift, etc.Storage Yo
http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/attachment.php?attachmentid=44285&stc=1&d=1418946257

72" odd deck when all the way up

[ausgeflippt951]

Let me make a pitch for a Bend Pak P6. It is often lumped with scissor lifts because it is similar in function. However, the P6 is two independent pads that allow the middle of the car to remain exposed. It's all you need for a rear-engined car, and it really only hinders access to the rocker area of a car. Like a scissor lift, it also does not lift very high.

It's not as useful as a two- or four-post lift; but when you consider that: (1) you want a simple, safer lift that can be used by unsupervised half-wits, and (2) you really only need to facilitate work typically done during a race weekend and NOT major work, then maybe something like the P6 makes sense.

And when not in use, the garage spot is unencumbered.

http://www.bendpak.com/P-6F-Pit-Lift.png?h=349

I have a gregsmith slp-7k full hight scissor lift. It can be embedded into a shallow pit in the concrete slab or sit on top. The lift is only 4.5 inches tall when lowered. I currently have the lift sitting on top of the slab. Plans are to cut into the slab and level the lift to the garage floor this coming fall.

I have had the lift for 3 years now and have had my full size Toyota Sienna Mini van, 996, and corolla on the lift and it was solid as a rock. Although this is a full height lift, i am only able to get the 996 52 inches hight from bottom of the oil pan to the concrete due to low my low garage ceiling.

Here is link http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Atlas-SLP-7K-Full-Rise-Scissor-Lift


Al


These seem like great options, and for this rental property, I think a low-rise scissor lift would be the most ideal -- something that is safe and less susceptible to f*** up.


These two options are currently first in the running for my house. While I can fit a full-height two- or four-post lift, my two-car garage is not really wide enough s.t. a post wouldn't constantly be in the way.

Only concern I have for this scissor lift is how much space I would still have in the center of the car -- I would need easy access to the exhaust, torque tube, trans, etc.

[Dr K]

Only concern I have for this scissor lift is how much space I would still have in the center of the car -- I would need easy access to the exhaust, torque tube, trans, etc.

Hence the Bend-Pak P6. I think this is the one (or similar to the one) that Jazz has. It's much easier to set the car on it, it's stable, and lets you get to the middle of the car. Probably won't work for a Smart +2 but should work for anything else. Disadvantage is that it doesn't raise the car as high as the mid-rise scissor lift, but I can assure you it's high enough - I've done 2 engine swaps on one (with help--it was only my 2nd time). I'd say this type of lift, 2 jack stands, a jack and a decent creeper would be all you'd need to offer.

The Greg Smith lift similar to this has a single hydraulic cylinder in the center with a bar across, which might impede access to exhaust and torque tube on a front-engine car. Bend-Pak makes both a surface-mount and a "flush-mount" model, so if you're getting that lift and haven't yet poured concrete, you might consider that one.

BTW, I'd strongly recommend against offering any tools other than a cross-type tire iron (if you're going to have air, you could include an inexpensive air impact wrench with a well-labeled 19mm impact socket). TR taught me about this - tools invariably get mixed together, and some of your tools will end up in the other person's tool box. I'm out a 1/2" breaker bar, a couple of large sockets, and a wrench or two. And just to me, TR is out a 15mm combination wrench (thanks!) and perhaps a couple of sockets (or at least he thinks he is) :roll:

[ausgeflippt951]

Hence the Bend-Pak P6. I think this is the one (or similar to the one) that Jazz has. It's much easier to set the car on it, it's stable, and lets you get to the middle of the car. Probably won't work for a Smart +2 but should work for anything else. Disadvantage is that it doesn't raise the car as high as the mid-rise scissor lift, but I can assure you it's high enough - I've done 2 engine swaps on one (with help--it was only my 2nd time). I'd say this type of lift, 2 jack stands, a jack and a decent creeper would be all you'd need to offer.

The Greg Smith lift similar to this has a single hydraulic cylinder in the center with a bar across, which might impede access to exhaust and torque tube on a front-engine car. Bend-Pak makes both a surface-mount and a "flush-mount" model, so if you're getting that lift and haven't yet poured concrete, you might consider that one.

Yeah -- I like it as well. Even so, each "half" of the lift is quite wide; with an already narrow 944, I'll need to try and figure out how much space I'll actually have. For example, once I factor in the width of the lift "halves", I may only have 36" to play with -- certainly wide enough to get a creeper in, but not much more than that. With how long the lift is, it could be quite claustrophobic.

Or, I could find out that I have much more space than that -- which would make it much more viable.


BTW, I'd strongly recommend against offering any tools other than a cross-type tire iron (if you're going to have air, you could include an inexpensive air impact wrench with a well-labeled 19mm impact socket). TR taught me about this - tools invariably get mixed together, and some of your tools will end up in the other person's tool box. I'm out a 1/2" breaker bar, a couple of large sockets, and a wrench or two. And just to me, TR is out a 15mm combination wrench (thanks!) and perhaps a couple of sockets (or at least he thinks he is) :roll:

Great point.

People don't take care of things that aren't theirs, and tools are no exception. You could stock the house with a cheap set of HF sockets, mallets, etc. But don't be surprised if you wind up needing to replace tools pretty regularly. Just incorporate that cost into the "Lift and Tool package" you charge the customer.

Alternatively, you could be a Nazi landlord and comb through each of your tools after every tenant leaves, and subsequently charge them for anything they lose/break, etc. :roll: :bang:

[cmartin]

Maybe the garage could be like the mini bar at a hotel? When the housekeeping comes they check the tool inventory and refill what's missing. Even better if you link the toolbox to a POS system for auto bill/refill.

[HoodPin]

If communal tools are being considered, I would suggest:

Use a rack or board to store them, making it MUCH easier to spot when a tool is missing.
Consider applying an odd color paint on the communal tools making them MUCH easier to identify.

[Dr K]

I like those ideas, Tony!

[trytryagain]

Do the platform lifts require that the lift points of the car be positioned over the centerline of the platforms, or can the lift points be placed more towards the inside edge of the platforms to afford more clearance to work under the car?

[Potomac-Greg]

Do the platform lifts require that the lift points of the car be positioned over the centerline of the platforms, or can the lift points be placed more towards the inside edge of the platforms to afford more clearance to work under the car?

As long as you have enough overlap between lift points and the jacking points, it's fine to spread them out. I went with maximum distance between the pads and it's worked out fine. In the scheme of things, it's interesting how little cars vary in width.

[Dr K]

With a very big surface like that, if the car is over half the surface that should be plenty of area for the weight to be spread out. So they can be a little further apart.

[Vicegrip]

Unfortunately is does not work like that.

[Trak Ratt]

If communal tools are being considered, I would suggest:
Use a rack or board to store them, making it MUCH easier to spot when a tool is missing.
Consider applying an odd color paint on the communal tools making them MUCH easier to identify.

That and simply not letting DrK use any of them...

[alw20147]

Hence the Bend-Pak P6. I think this is the one (or similar to the one) that Jazz has. It's much easier to set the car on it, it's stable, and lets you get to the middle of the car. Probably won't work for a Smart +2 but should work for anything else. Disadvantage is that it doesn't raise the car as high as the mid-rise scissor lift, but I can assure you it's high enough - I've done 2 engine swaps on one (with help--it was only my 2nd time). I'd say this type of lift, 2 jack stands, a jack and a decent creeper would be all you'd need to offer.

The Greg Smith lift similar to this has a single hydraulic cylinder in the center with a bar across, which might impede access to exhaust and torque tube on a front-engine car. Bend-Pak makes both a surface-mount and a "flush-mount" model, so if you're getting that lift and haven't yet poured concrete, you might consider that one.

BTW, I'd strongly recommend against offering any tools other than a cross-type tire iron (if you're going to have air, you could include an inexpensive air impact wrench with a well-labeled 19mm impact socket). TR taught me about this - tools invariably get mixed together, and some of your tools will end up in the other person's tool box. I'm out a 1/2" breaker bar, a couple of large sockets, and a wrench or two. And just to me, TR is out a 15mm combination wrench (thanks!) and perhaps a couple of sockets (or at least he thinks he is) :roll:


Gregsmith have many lifts. Take a look at the the SLP-7K (link in a prior message) it lifts to a full 72 inches, open in the center, and have dual cylinders on each side of the platform.

http://gsmith.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/ATTD-SLP7K-4.jpg

[Potomac-Greg]

I may only have 36" to play with -- certainly wide enough to get a creeper in, but not much more than that. With how long the lift is, it could be quite claustrophobic.

I have mine 36" apart and I think that was as wide as they recommend. I've had everything from my SRF, to a Mini Cooper to a Mercedes GL on the platforms. I haven't had any issues. They come with rubber blocks (and I use wooden blocks) to match the platform with jackpoints.

[alw20147]

Do the platform lifts require that the lift points of the car be positioned over the centerline of the platforms, or can the lift points be placed more towards the inside edge of the platforms to afford more clearance to work under the car?

Each side of the lift pad can be placed further apart if (hydraulic hose permitting) and as long as the lift points are not within the 6" of the inner edge of the platforms ( as per my install manuals)

[BikePump]

Al I did some research on the Greg Smith lifts and looked at the BendPack lifts too. Seems like a mid-rise lift is a good choice since i dont plan on needing to stand fully erect under the car and dont want other people planning on that kind of work in the barn.

Love the idea of the lift being portable which would allow me to leverage it in any of the 4 spaces I have without doing the car dance. could even throw it on the trailer and take it to the paddock!

[Uncle ENzo]

I used a Bendpack 2 post for years a VW/Audi tech and never felt uneasy under it but this was many moons ago when I wasn't afraid of anything.