cannot find a used cayman r that i really like at the right price

[Otto]

my quest for new to me wheels continues

i lust for a cayman r, but as many have pointed out, a cayman s tricked out may be a better option, particually if i am going to run it hard

i have come across an interesting possibility

it has many track worthy upgrades and casually passes for cayman r

i am talking to the guy tonight, and may make an offer

he claims to have a bbi autosport roll bar that needs to be installed as well

it has 16k miles and he claims only 10-12 track days

comments welcome

[Otto]

crap

details

it is a 2011 cayman s with cayman r bits from a race car conversion

-Sport Chrono
-PDK
-PASM
-LSD
-Sport Design Steering wheel
-Full Leather
-PDK lever surround in Leather
-Deviating lower dash in natural brown
-Deviating door panel inserts in natural brown
-Deviating seat inserts in natural brown
-PNR rebuilt LSD
-PNR PDK cooler
-PNR RSS anti-sways & adj drop links
-RSS Front LCAs
-RSS Toe Steer Kit with locking plates
-Rennline front grill mesh
-OE Cayman R PSE
-OE Cayman aero kit
-OE Sport Bucket seats*
-Brey Krause sub bars
-OE rear center console cover in leather with crest
-Leather trimmed sun visors by Classic 9
-Leather trimmed lower dash end caps by Classic 9

[BlackTalon]

I know it's only 3 years old, but I would still get a PPI. You may not want to spring for a leakdown (although I would), but at least get it looked at by a pro for evidence of suspension damage/ wear-and-tear, collision repair, etc. and get a compression test.

[roundel]

What's he asking or what is the delta vs a real R?

[Mark Hubley]

Nice looking car!

Just gotta do something about the guy who appears in the nav system in that last photo!

[Otto]

what is PPI ???

i was thinking that if i go see the car i would arrange to have it looked at by the local porsche dealer, if they do such things

asking price is 59

[roundel]

Pre purchase inspection. O_o

[Otto]

cayman r with pdk runs 60 to 73

however, prices are dropping a bit, i think because of the cayman gts

[Otto]

ok, can i arrange for a local porsche dealer to do a ppi and compression check

also, what is a leakdown ?

didn't know buying used would be so hard

[roundel]

ok, can i arrange for a local porsche dealer to do a ppi and compression check

also, what is a leakdown ?

didn't know buying used would be so hard

:butt: I got your leak down right here.

[Chopper Dropper]

Rebuilt LSD?? with low miles and 10-12 track days??
Lot of "fancy" extras for a track car IMHO
Dirk

[Carrera51]

For $59K, my vote is for a 996 GT3. :)

[Otto]

lol

[Otto]

clearly this guy had money to bleed all over this thing

i don't think he started out building a track car, just a super nice car

then he got the de bug and i think was talked into a lot of mods for that, but has now decided to go in a different direction

however, point well taken and from that perspective a low mile stock car would be the best choice i suppose

yeah, if i were interested in a 996 gt3 - but for 59k, really

[Otto]

and yes, maybe it is way to nice for a track car

[FTS]

For $59K, my vote is for a 996 GT3. :)

+1, although the prices have been creeping up.

[Otto]

as nice as it is, i think i am going to pass on it

[jhsmith]

Otto, Just adding another plug to look at an air-cooled 911 as a track car. A 993 or 964. Lots of opinions out there, but some would say the late air-cooled cars are easier to maintain and easier to find parts for.

[Dr K]

If he were willing to take a lower offer ($51K?) it might be a very nice deal - provided you're going to drive it off the track, too. If you want it only for the track, seriously consider a 996 GT3 for that range of price. From what I've heard (and I've only driven on the street), they're more fun on the track than the 997s (very responsive).

Peter

[FTS]

From what I've heard (and I've only driven on the street), they're more fun on the track than the 997s (very responsive).

Peter
You have no idea of what you are talking about :bang:

:D

[blipshift]

http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=32648

[Otto]

I have been emailing back and forth with the owner for some time now

Tonight we talked on the phone for over an hour

There are about 20 track days on the car

The lsd was rebuilt because the the diff was opened in the process of installing a pdk cooler which actually cools the lsd fluid not the pdk fluid directly

Still thinking

I am not considering an older 911

[Hunter]

Otto-the cool part of this is this brand of car offers people like us many choices. What we have not heard and if I may be so bold, suggest reflecting back to what you what you really want to do. What percentage of the time will you be driving the car on the street vs. track and be honest. We have witnessed the trailer search as much as a car search so you appear to be serious about tracking a lot more then streeting 'the' car. Remember what makes a great track car makes a crappy street car and vice versa. You may hear buy the newest car you can afford but that statement shouldn't end there. It is the newest car you can afford to throw away when it hits the fan, err tire wall. What I have learned is the older cars in many cases are worth more then newer ones starting with 996s and following closely the 997. Why is this the case? Some of the older ones offer a visceral experience the newer ones can't offer any longer. I will in short order be able to drive my 964 faster with a feeling of being connected, then my 996 with 70hp more.
The Cayman you mentioned looks really nice to me but I would offer the stuff added to a car as a general statement has minimal residual value maybe 50 cents on the dollar at best. The Caymen is really popular and is a very nice car. The Zone 2 VIR event was filled with them. I believe Black consisted of about half Caymans.
If your answer is some form of 90/10 street/track any newer car will work. If it is 90/10 the other way then consider the other extreme and buy a track car where someone already dumped buckets of cash into and you will reap many rewards.
Before I have a Jerry Maguire moment I will stop rambling.
Please, please have a pre purchase inspection done by someone, dealer or indy guys. The more track goodies the more I would lean towards indys for the PPI.

[FTS]

... it hits the fan, err tire wall.
:rolleyes:

[roundel]

For $59K, my vote is for a 996 GT3. :)

Ed Zachery

[Otto]

i know! :oops:

[Windnsea]

The Cayman's are great cars. But if your looking for a more modern Pcar with built in track goodies & safety features (cage ect..), why not consider a well built and maintained spec Boxster?

Should be able to find one in the 30K range that is well sorted. A lot cheaper than a Cayman R and apply some the savings to more seat time and other fun stuff and should something happen to the car down the road, not a huge investment in $.

[N Fotouhi]

Rant on

I am in a crappy mood, so I am going to likely offend two members here by saying with the recent "want to buy posts, so what you think, and by the way I do not really want any contrary opinions, cause I want to just obsess over the perfect decision" Otto is the new CanAm. :bang:

Have you bought a trailer yet? There have been several leads posted, so you should have had pulled the trigger on one by now. Just buy a f'in car and get done with it. How the hell are we supposed to tell you what to get. Most of us look at our budget and the car we like in that budget and start looking. I want a Cup car, but even though I can pay the entry price, I can not pay the operating cost or write off, so I am never buying one.

If you want an R for whatever reason, buy one. If you cannot afford one, stop obsessing and get something you can afford.

Get a PPI.

Rant off and I do not even feel any better. :grrr:

[Cliff Claven]

... Otto is the new CanAm. :bang:

Have you bought a trailer yet? There have been several leads posted, so you should have had pulled the trigger on one by now. Just buy a f'in car and get done with it. How the hell are we supposed to tell you what to get. ...

hahahaha, post of the day!

[Otto]

LOL

glad you feel better - rant appreciated!

i like CanAm, not that i want to be the new CanAM...LOL

but wait, all threads are voluntary participation :p

As the for trailex, i contacted both leads i have seen as soon as i was aware, and both times they were sold before me

i was starting to think that my thread was being hi-jacked by an evil fellow club member, but i guess the word goes out on these things to the far corners of the earth or something!

last week i 'pulled the trigger' on some slightly used track wheels with nitto nt01 tires to try out at wgi

then i was just going to hitch the boxster and get one of these little wheel trailers, but finding that just as hard to accomplish it seems, according to president john

as for me, i turn to my fellow pca track heads for a very good reason - respect

after all, it is not unusual for a nob, especially for one as stupid and inexperienced as myself, to seek advice and tacit approval from those he respects and looks up to

the passion continues, and continues to grow

have a happy day :)

[BobNovas]

Nadir!

[blipshift]

9

[Vicegrip]

Nadir!

Someone buy him a drink stat!

[Dandelion]

9

:D

[Dr K]

F' the Cayman and the GT3. Buy a S-L-O-W momentum car, put in the seat time, and learn what it means to drive "at the limit." Then get your Cayman or whatever, and you'll be driving it a lot faster than if you start with a car you'll probably not get to the limit of for years.

[John Clay]

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/3489/Youre-An-Idiot-If-You-Take-That-New-Porsche-To-The-Track.aspx

[Mark Hubley]

F' the Cayman and the GT3. Buy a S-L-O-W momentum car, put in the seat time, and learn what it means to drive "at the limit." Then get your Cayman or whatever, and you'll be driving it a lot faster than if you start with a car you'll probably not get to the limit of for years.

That's been my strategy ;)

[blipshift]

That's been my strategy ;)

x2. Picked up from Dorki.

[N Fotouhi]

F' the Cayman and the GT3. Buy a S-L-O-W momentum car, put in the seat time, and learn what it means to drive "at the limit." Then get your Cayman or whatever, and you'll be driving it a lot faster than if you start with a car you'll probably not get to the limit of for years.

Have you seen Otto? He is no spring chicken and has not missed too many lunches. ;) S-L-O-W momentum cars have not helped you and me to go fast. Why would it help him? My vote is GT3, Crock R, or why f around, a cup car. DEs and races are won on the straight.

BTW, I feel much better today. Thanks for the drinks. :D

[N0tt0N]

LOL! All riders able to remount after their, um, refreshments, please rejoin the Unicorn+Carrier Hunt! Allez! Allez!

[Vicegrip]

After driving a 912 from Green to many years in Black I have to say,

1. All cars are momentum cars.
2. Learning in low powered cars is over rated.

[blipshift]

After driving a 912 from Green to many years in Black I have to say,

2. Learning in low powered cars is over rated.

I'll bite. Why?

[FTS]

After driving a 912 from Green to many years in Black I have to say,

1. All cars are momentum cars.
2. Learning in low powered cars is over rated.

+1 Actually I think low powered cars slows the learning curve in proportion to its relative power :D

[Vicegrip]

I'll bite. Why?
For tin top street to track cars I think it is better to Learn in what you intend to use.

[Chopper Dropper]

Got to disagree, various levels of learning, F1 drivers now invariably learnt on a progression of Go Karts. VG spent a long "apprenticeship" in the 912 and really hustled that thing around. Learning to use the brakes sparingly and having to keep momentum is a great training, yes all cars are momentum cars including F1-Indy etc. Also mistakes for a lower time driver tend to be less painful and less expensive! Hate teaching the 00 at FATT who comes to the track in a brand new Viper, brand new driving suit, shoes gloves, rather have someone in his daily driver that he has to get to work in on Monday morning. But then I am old!!
Dirk

[Vicegrip]

You cant fix stupid but you can teach to the smart. The hoon in a 15 year old Dodge sedan is harder to teach than the regular joe in the GT-2. I am also not talking F-1 regular guys in regular street to track cars. If your intent is to own and drive a late 911 by all means get one and bring it to the track.

[Dr K]

You cant fix stupid but you can teach to the smart. The hoon in a 15 year old Dodge sedan is harder to teach than the regular joe in the GT-2. I am also not talking F-1 regular guys in regular street to track cars. If your intent is to own and drive a late 911 by all means get one and bring it to the track.

...said the (really fast and overly humble) guy who learned to pass guys with TRIPLE his horsepower while driving his 912!

[C3PC]

You cant fix stupid but you can teach to the smart. The hoon in a 15 year old Dodge sedan is harder to teach than the regular joe in the GT-2. I am also not talking F-1 regular guys in regular street to track cars. If your intent is to own and drive a late 911 by all means get one and bring it to the track.

Even if he doesn't have the ability/skills to drive what he has now?

[blipshift]

You cant fix stupid but you can teach to the smart. The hoon in a 15 year old Dodge sedan is harder to teach than the regular joe in the GT-2. I am also not talking F-1 regular guys in regular street to track cars. If your intent is to own and drive a late 911 by all means get one and bring it to the track.

So what did you mean on page 26 post #258 of epic thread "Wtb: 996/997 gt3/rs":

"The Porsche GT-2 or 3 with various letters technology does represent a major performance aid, which IMO makes the car not good for learning to drive. The speed capability of the Porsche GT group is a hoot, and I've thought of getting one of them, but every time I said, what's the point? It's too fast for road use, and on the track it will make it easy to be dangerously fast because the car will be doing a lot of the driving."

http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29394&page=26 (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=29394&page=26)

Don't get all bent out of shape this one took some effort to find! :troll:

[BlackTalon]

Ha, you are confusing GT2/ GT3 with 'get a late model Porsche if you want one, and learn how to drive it'

[blipshift]

Yeah, I don't buy the "regular joe" in his GT2 comment, either!

You know as well as I that late model Porsches, regardless of designation, have significant technologies designed to keep the car turning, and/or accelerating or braking in a forward direction with the engine maintaining it's position as tail end charlie. If you really want to learn how to drive start with low hp and minimal nannies and progressively work your way up. Build SA and everything else will fall into place.

Edit: I should add that I think using a progressive approach is, IMO, best practice. But it ain't the only way to do it; your car, life, money...do as you please.

[BlackTalon]

If he could live with a track-only car than a lowER HP car might be okay. But let's be real -- who wants a mid-80s 911 or fo' fo' for a daily driver? if one car will perform the double duty for now, go gay, man.

[blipshift]

:lol: lulz!!!! You certainly won't hear me champion the 944 as a good DD!

I don't see the car purchase as permanent, I guess. Get the car for the situation, change when ready, resources permitting. If you can afford a late model cayman R you can probably also afford, in addition, a track prepped 944/Miata. Learn, make mistakes, build seat time, garner experience in an inexpensive but dedicated prepped car. Then, once you're ready to move on, or had enough, move on.

Edit: Point being, if you don't have to live with a track only car every day, just at the track, then that's your best option...IMO, of course :)

[N0tt0N]

I recommend a 2006 Boxster S

[RunningonMT]

I recommend a 2006 Boxster S

Good one, Martin!

LMAO!!!

[vranko]

If he could live with a track-only car than a lowER HP car might be okay. But let's be real -- who wants a mid-80s 911 or fo' fo' for a daily driver? if one car will perform the double duty for now, go gay, man.

Agree Dave.

Otto, if you want a dedicated track car (don't also need it for a daily driver) I'd recommend getting an older, fully track prepared car (full cage, etc.). I don't see any reason to have two streetable cars and would recommend the safest track car you can afford. If I were to do it again I'd get the newest Porsche track car I could afford with very few if any nannies (964, 993)

[Hunter]

Agree Dave.

Otto, if you want a dedicated track car (don't also need it for a daily driver) I'd recommend getting an older, fully track prepared car (full cage, etc.). I don't see any reason to have two streetable cars and would recommend the safest track car you can afford. If I were to do it again I'd get the newest Porsche track car I could afford with very few if any nannies (964, 993)

One living breathing example of this............:D

[Vicegrip]

Yeah, I don't buy the "regular joe" in his GT2 comment, either!

You know as well as I that late model Porsches, regardless of designation, have significant technologies designed to keep the car turning, and/or accelerating or braking in a forward direction with the engine maintaining it's position as tail end charlie. If you really want to learn how to drive start with low hp and minimal nannies and progressively work your way up. Build SA and everything else will fall into place.

Edit: I should add that I think using a progressive approach is, IMO, best practice. But it ain't the only way to do it; your car, life, money...do as you please.I am well aware of the modern cars not being the same as older cars and that is my point.
Progressive does not only mean from slow non modern car to high HP modern car. Progressive is a method of learning. DE is not driving or racing school it is DE. The format we have to work with is limited in scope. As an instructor we can and we all do modulate the learning from the right seat each and every time we go on track. I have no idea at all how to start a Model T. I don't need to know. Most students don't need to know how to deal with non ABS brakes but do need to learn how to deal with the ins and outs of ABS what and how. We are not teaching a school with a timeline and classes to pass before advancing. We are teaching to people that come to DE. I have never had a power brake or ABS track car. Put me in one and I will not use the system to its fullest extent. I will have to think about what I am doing at threshhold or beyond rather than have it be sub con and automatic.

Face it old school cars are just that now old school. The standard DE car is ABS with PS and likely other letter based driving aids at a min. Spend the time learning what will used now and in the future.
unlimited time? Start with a bicycle to learn conservation of energy and traction managment under braking then go to 1600 cc bugs then long hoods .......

[vranko]

Otto. I found the prefect car for you at Katie's Cars and Coffee this morning :lol: The lighting doesn't do the color justice :shock: You'll need to see it in person.

4150941510

[BMAN]

1. All cars are momentum cars.
2. Learning in low powered cars is over rated.

Agree. But I am biased;)

All cars are momentum cars......there should be no argument but not all agree and seem to feel that hp allows for a different approach. The biggest irony is that several point to a cup car as an example of not having to drive with momentum mindset when it is probably the best example of a momentum car.......if you want to turn a fast lap and not destroy the car.

It always comes down to the nut behind the wheel. Learning in high HP cars will heighten your senses or highlight your ignorance. It is, however, a high risk approach and should be respected.

[Trak Ratt]

^ I've found this to not be the case! Most new comers think THEY are the reason the car is fast! If both progress they may eventually get it. To many examples of green/green drovers whining about being held up by slower cars!

[Trak Ratt]

...would be nice if driving aids came wiith sound effects so some can hear what is really happening!

[Chopper Dropper]

Pretty much what TR said, a number of us were invited PCNA to Lightning track last fall to drive the latest PDK, PSM, PMS PASM etc ,s\etc cars. They were fun and amazing, about 30 instructors from around the North East and pretty much all wanted a big amber warning light on the dash to let both driver and instructor know when the nannies came on and who was in control of the car.
Dirk

[joep]

Pretty much what TR said, a number of us were invited PCNA to Lightning track last fall to drive the latest PDK, PSM, PMS PASM etc ,s\etc cars. They were fun and amazing, about 30 instructors from around the North East and pretty much all wanted a big amber warning light on the dash to let both driver and instructor know when the nannies came on and who was in control of the car.
Dirk

This sounds like an aftermarket add-on waiting to be invented.

[BMAN]

^ I've found this to not be the case!

Pretty much what TR said

I commented on low powered vs high powered.....you guys are talking nannies :?

In either case, both come down to the nut behind the wheel.

[Dr K]

My issue regarding learning on a slower car is really about making mistakes at lower speeds, and finding the limits of the car at lower speeds.

[blipshift]

My issue regarding learning on a slower car is really about making mistakes at lower speeds, and finding the limits of the car at lower speeds.

X2. Plus building SA so when they eventually get more hp it's not as much bucket filling experience.

[blipshift]

^dont dorki and iphone at the same time :)

[John Clay]

Pretty much what TR said, a number of us were invited PCNA to Lightning track last fall to drive the latest PDK, PSM, PMS PASM etc ,s\etc cars. They were fun and amazing, about 30 instructors from around the North East and pretty much all wanted a big amber warning light on the dash to let both driver and instructor know when the nannies came on and who was in control of the car.
Dirk

Toyota has an audible warning. At least in our minivan and the camry that pam was instructing in SS. Would need to be louder for track use.

[tdatk]

I get a yellow indicator and a audible beep when the DSC kicks in on the M3.

[BobNovas]

I get a punch in the shoulder when I screw around while driving.

[FTS]

My issue regarding learning on a slower car is really about making mistakes at lower speeds, and finding the limits of the car at lower speeds.

You do have a point; however, such learning does not really prepare you for higher hp cars that reach speeds at which things happen so much faster and differently. Learning at a higher power car than going back to a lower power car is amazing though, things become so much easier.

[blipshift]

Wait, what?! Explain to me how it's beneficial for anyone to be finding the limit of a car for their first time in a high v low hp car? How about we learn where the limit doesn't happen as fast, requires less SA, potentially enabling recovery and doesn't have as high of an outcome if/when something does occur?

With this kind of thinking we should skip flight school, go directly to F18s. First hop, night boat ops.

[FTS]

MX-5s for all then :)

[blipshift]

MX-5s for all then :)

Fair point, actually, and that touches on what VG said about driving school vs race school vs DE.

All said, if you ask me the best way to learn is with a progressive approach including car, driver, and track. Resources and time become obstacles.

[Dandelion]

YLearning at a higher power car than going back to a lower power car is amazing though, things become so much easier.

Agree with this - I started doing DE with a 3rd gen RX-7, with 300+ HP. The next car was a Lotus Elise - and boy was it enlightening to go to a lower HP, pure handling car.

ed

[FTS]

I think each individual learns differently, I am very progressive, things don't come to me naturally about driving, I have to force my self to analyze, reason and practice and learn. However, if I knew what I know today back when I first started DE'ing, I would have bought the GT3 then and not screw around with other cars.

[Vicegrip]

Fair point, actually, and that touches on what VG said about driving school vs race school vs DE.

All said, if you ask me the best way to learn is with a progressive approach including car, driver, and track. Resources and time become obstacles.Bingo. Perf world progressive is good. I am not talking about learning overall and best methods, I am talking about real world and DE. Another aspect of DE and the slow car then fast car is time spent under instruction in the target car. Very common to see someone go from Green to white or black in the slow car then driver "graduates" to his /her fast/ track car and is now largely uninstructed in the "faster" target car. Woho everyone, BillyBob sold the fofo and got a GT-3! He is now more track savvy but is tasked with unlearning all the subcon reflexes learned from the slow non advanced car as well as learning the new car aspects largely alone.

Flight school is not the same. In DE people come to the track with "flight time" they know which pedals do what and how to drive a car. We are simply refining a known set of subcon con reflexes and adding a layer of track based knowledge on top. Most people that come to mil flight school can't fly even the first level Green group aircraft.

[Vicegrip]

My issue regarding learning on a slower car is really about making mistakes at lower speeds, and finding the limits of the car at lower speeds.my 90 HP 2150 lb 912 hit 120 at the end of the front straight. The white car 138. Progressive in the faster car can be simply driving it below its limits and progressing closer to them, which is what most of us do anyway. Which is where the Instructor comes into play. Is going from a FEWC 944 to a REWC late 911 a good learning progression?

[blipshift]

The piece you're forgetting is building SA. Using control surfaces is the easy part. Making quick good decisions to use those surfaces is the hard part.That's why progressive approach, even in DE is paramount. Regarding "graduating" to a new car; if you've been around long enough to get to a more advanced run group you know enough that you don't know enough. Check the ego and grab an instructor. That said, as you pointed out, even senior instructors may not be choice if they don't have experience in those cars with ABS etc either! This is where standardization could help.

Great discussion as always.

[N Fotouhi]

I have been sitting this one out until I have had a few drinks and feel that after 2 cups of coffee, I am good place jump in.

I always get confused in low vs high HP learning thingies. IMHO, most of OOPPSIES happens when the driver goes in too hot into a turn or comes out of a turn and does not realize how to correct the mistake or is unable to correct it. Considering that a corner's apex speed is virtually the same for a 150 HP and 300 HP on the same tires, if a driver comes into that apex at 75 mph regardless of HP, he is likely to have an OOPPSIE and low HP is irrelevant.

In a high HP car, the driver can get on the power too soon/aggressively after the turn and cause an OOPPSIE, but these are generally without major consequences unless the car was out of sort before that point to begin with.

IMHO, most "slow" drivers over slow both the high and low HP car in entry. The high HP car just can accelerate "faster" which gives the false sense of being fast. However, lap time of a driver is "slow" in comparison to a fast driver that can maximize the corner entry in both cars. My point is that HP is irrelevant in learning maximizing turn in speed and getting back on the go pedal as soon as possible. Because, IMHO, it is easier to learn feathering the throttle at the exist of a turn in a HP car, than learning to maximize entry speed regardless of HP. This is why all cars are momentum cars.

Now discussing where the engine is and driver aids vs none requires several more cups of coffee, but by then I am too hyped up to car.:D

[FTS]

I think you do need to drive a 400+ hp car first! then have few drinks and re-evaluate your cause-effect assumptions :) things don't happen the way you describe when you are approaching a 45 mph corner from 150 mph vs. 130 mph, or when you are exiting the same corner with 4-5 mph/sec acceleration vs, 1-2 mph/sec.

[Vicegrip]

The piece you're forgetting is building SA. Using control surfaces is the easy part. Making quick good decisions to use those surfaces is the hard part.That's why progressive approach, even in DE is paramount. Regarding "graduating" to a new car; if you've been around long enough to get to a more advanced run group you know enough that you don't know enough. Check the ego and grab an instructor. That said, as you pointed out, even senior instructors may not be choice if they don't have experience in those cars with ABS etc either! This is where standardization could help.

Great discussion as always.Much of the real ugly stuff happens in the upper groups. SA is 99% of what we teach in DE if you really look at it. We hone the existing subcon car control but what we are teaching as an overlay is how to read the car and what to do with the info as well as how not to hurt yourself or others.
Every one drives to DE but few fly to flight school. If everyone only had bicycles and rode bicycles to DE getting into cars for the first time or nearly so only then we would be looking at a flight school type scenario and progression would be required. Our students show up knowing how to fly a Tomcat whe teach them to catch the 3rd wire and not hit the Bridge trying.
We are working with humans on their days off not immersive training. I think this aspect is larger than some might think and has to be accounted for with regards to goals on both sides of the information flow. You would think everyone would know enough to get a fellow instructor and yet many don't or IMO don't do so often enough. The previous example yet again with regards to your control surfaces and what to do with them. 912 and the white car are similar in many ways. Layout, 5 speed, man steering, man non abs brakes, sightlines and the like. One aspect with notable delta is aero and that aspect alone required (ongoing) a lot of unlearning of subcon reflexes.

There is no right or wrong and there is always room to adjust and improve what we have. There are too many variations in the students and goals to follow a set overreaching detailed program. Flight school or immersive driving school of more than the one day or weekend type ALL follow a set program or washout. The first thing I ask every student on day one is "What are you looking to accomplish today?" Not "This is todays syllabus" Once we discuss his/her goals I wrap my goals around his/hers and off we go.

[N Fotouhi]

I think you do need to drive a 400+ hp car first! then have few drinks and re-evaluate your cause-effect assumptions :) things don't happen the way you describe when you are approaching a 45 mph corner from 150 mph vs. 130 mph, or when you are exiting the same corner with 4-5 mph/sec acceleration vs, 1-2 mph/sec.

I completely disagree. You are now talking about another variable which is driver error/judgment. If I am coming into a braking zone at 150+ mph vs 120 mph, I have a different brake marker. In either cases my apex speed is the same. Why would you think otherwise?

If I miss my brake in either car, I am in trouble. It is not more HP that gets me in trouble, it is the error. If you argue that consequences of the error are higher at 150 mph in a 400 HP car, then you are disagreeing with you're previous statement to learn in a high HP car. :?

On the other hand, you have not introduced any valid argument against my statement that HP has nothing to do with learning to carry speed into the corner, which is the crux of learning to be fast in a fast car.

[FTS]

I am not attempting to offer any evidence, all I am saying is that you are operating with the wrong assumptions. But than again, we know anyone who can drive an RSA can also drive a Cup car or even an F1, they would just change their braking points and keep the same apex speed, no worries :)

[CanAm]

Otto, if you really want a Cayman R, be prepared to spend the $$, I don't think prices will drop much any time soon.

As far as what car to get next, there are many factors to consider, and many good options to choose from, so it depends on what you want - which may change as you do more track days.

IMO, you can reasonably 'learn to drive' with just about any Porsche, new or old, as long as the car hasn't been messed up with the wrong mods. Some cars or sequences of cars may accelerate the learning process, but I don't see how that matters much unless the goal is specifically to learn as quickly as possible, which isn't the goal for most of us. So in making your choice, I'd focus more on safety, durability, reliability, fun, etc.

FWIW, I've done most of my track days with a Cayman and 997 C2S, but the most fun I've had on track was driving 911s from the 80s.