Rear wheel bearing assistance anyone?

[Kurt S]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here, so I guess that makes me a relative unknown and FNG (a type of new guy). For those who went on Doug's Pelican Group scenic drive back in November, I was there with the red 87 Carrera if that rings any bells.

My 87 seems to be in need of rear wheel bearings and after reading all I can find about doing the job I'm not scared of trying it myself. However, I don't have a bearing puller or the appropriate tool to reinsert the bearing. I do however have a well-lit garage, plenty of tools (air tools included) as well as jack stands, etc.

I don't suppose anyone out there with the know-how to do this job and the proper tools would care to offer up any assistance, would they??? Free food and beer would certainly be included in the deal! :)

Thanks in advance!

Kurt Selbert
Ashburn, VA
krselbert@earthlink.net

[Charlie Stylianos]

Kurt,

I had the shop remove the bearing fro the trailing arm and the race from the spindle. I havent done the install portion yet, but wil be very, very shortly. I'd be willing to help, but will be like the blind leading the blind for the removal portion.

I'm currently sourcing the parts to make the installation tool. Feel free to borrow.

See post:

http://www.dorkiphus.com/porsche/viewtopic.php?t=255


The bearing should slip right in if the bearing is placed in the freezer before hand and the trailing arm heated with a propane torch. The tool is needed to then press the spindle into the bearing while supporting the inner race at the same time.

The spindle will come out by using a deep well socket as a drift and a 3-lb hammer. Removing the spindle from the old bearing will leave 1/2 the inner race deep on the spindle and will need to be puled off. The bearing itself should come by heating the trailing arm then coaxing it out w/ some type of drift and and a 3-lb hammer. Since the trailing arms were out of the car, I took them and the spindles to the shop and hed them remove the bearing and the race.

[Kurt S]

Thanks Charlie

My latest idea is to buy the $260 tool, do it myself and then sell the tool for a slight loss. Shops want $600 to do both bearings and I figure that doing it this way it will cost me maybe $200!

Or maybe I could rent the tool out and become rich and famous? ;)

Kurt

[Marc A]

Kurt:

We did a group purchase of the engine stand and yoke that resides (most of the time) at my house.

I would kick in 20 bucks for the right to use it if and when.

All we need it 10 people and we're there.

How about it guys ????? Thats one cuban for Dan, 20 cases of PBR for Richard . . . anyone else.

[Charlie Stylianos]

I'll kick in $20. I promise not to hijack and keep in my garage for an undetermined amount of time :roll:

BTW Guys, yoke and stand should be free by end of June.

[Jim Richards]

yoke and stand should be free by end of June.

end of June. :shock: :shock:

I'll kick in $20.

[Charlie Stylianos]

There is a great thread going on about this very topic on the Rennlist mail list.

From Walter Fricke:

Well, you've gotten good advice on this already. That Schattenbaum
tech article is great, because of the pictures if nothing else. It does
show tools you don't have (I don't have those either). And using a
slide hammer (I have one of those, not expensive) and a harmonic balancer
of whatever to pull the hub out looks like a great idea I'll keep in
mind for the next time I have to do this chore.

But you also heard about brute force, and how it can be done that way.
I've done this three times. The first involved driving the car to a
shop. That was the easiest. The second started with a pair of bare,
clean banana arms (for a race car upgrade), and I put the new bearings in
the freezer and the banana in the oven and heated it to 200 degrees or
so. The bearings dropped right in. The third I did last year. It was
more like the brute force method, but made much easier with heat.

Once you get the easy stuff off (CVs, stub axle, brake stuff) it should
be easy to get the hub out. I think pretty much all that is holding it
in at that point is a grease seal around the bearings, so you can use a
variety of methods to get it out. This is why conventional wisdom says
that the bearings are destroyed in this operation, though a frugal
person, on finding zero bearing damage, might be tempted to put them back
together if a new seal could be found. Then you unbolt that plate which
helps keep the bearing outer race piece in the banana. So far, not too
hard.

The fancy pullers (or home made equivalents - one guy used a long piece
of all thread and made his own) are certainly nice, but I just lit a
propane torch and set it on the floor pointing at the outside of the
aluminum hub carrier and went about other chores for fifteen minutes or
half an hour or so. I have a welding torch, but no large heating tip so I
was afraid to use it since it can melt aluminum. No such risk with the
typical propane torch. Then I went to work with punches, a miscellaney
of large sockets, and I forget all what, including my hand sledge, and
I drove the rest of the bearing out of the hub. This wasn't smooth and
easy as it would be with a puller, but wasn't Scott's epic efforts,
which sound like they rivaled John Henry. So the answer here, if you
don't have (or make) a screw type puller, is to use heat.

Getting the bearing race which is stuck on the wheel flange hub off can
be a chore if you don't have something which will help. You can
improvise like Scott. I found, in my box of miscellaneous pullers, a puller
like the one in the Schattenbaum article which I had left over from VW
engine days. But one good thing about this chore, if you have the
time, is that you can take the hub to a shop or a friend or somewhere to
get that part pulled off. It is easy to carry around.

Guess what makes reinstallation of all these parts easier? Right -
heat, and cold too. Freeze the new bearing, heat the banana, and the
bearing will just about fall in. Freeze the hub. After you bolt the
keeper plate on (I once forgot to do this -- aargh - but I figured out a
fix), the frozen flanged hub should pretty much slide in too. Once you
get it in far enough that the stub axle's threaded end protrudes some,
you can use the stub axle and its nut as your press to complete the job.
You can use a hammer to drive the flange in also, but I hate to do
that, as you are pounding balls into races, which seems like something one
might wish to avoid.

So you can do it, like Scott and I and others who work on their own
cars have done, and with a minimum of tools.

Walt Fricke

(and maybe when you pull the old bearings apart you will be rewarded
with finding a bad spot on at least one race, and you will know you did
the right thing and can hope the noise or whatever symptom led you to do
this will go away)

[Charlie Stylianos]

From Scott Booth:

The procedure that Bruce mentioned is a very good step by step guide.
I didn't follow it step by step because I didn't have all of the
recommended tools, but it shows the process you need to follow and is
good reading to prepare for the job.

I've done both of my rear wheel bearings, at separate times, without a
press or the official bearing remover/installer tool, which looks like
it would do a great job but is expensive for what is likely going to be
a job you will only do twice in the next several years.

The first time, I used a hammer (many many times) and some big hex
sockets from Sears to drive out the hub and the outer race, which took
many hours and was not much fun. Then to get the inner race off the
hub, since I didn't have a bearing separator that would fit, I used a
Dremel to put some notches in the race so I could grab it with a
bearing puller (using a C-clamp to hold the puller arms in the notches,
and some washers stacked on the hub center shaft to give the puller screw
something to push against). To install the new bearing I used a bad
jury rig of the Porsche tool, which was made up of the various sockets
I used for the removal, along with some bits from whatever puller type
tools I could find at AutoZone. I think one was a harmonic balancer
puller kit (it was the biggest) though I don't even know what a
harmonic balancer is. (I am pretty sure the 911 does not have one.) It all
worked out but it took days and was a pain all the way through.

Before I did the second bearing, I had a machinist friend cut me a few
circles out of thick aluminum (1/2" I think) in diameters strategically
designed for all the pressing/pulling operations that need to take
place. And, I borrowed a slide hammer from Advance Auto Parts, which
popped the hub loose in about 2 minutes as opposed to the hours that it
took banging on it. With this slightly more suitable set of tools the
second R&R went much more smoothly - just a few hours all told.

Long story short, you can do the job without all of the right tools if
you are patient. The slide hammer is a highly recommended addition,
especially if you can rent or borrow one. Even if you have to buy one,
it's probably worth it - I think they cost less than $100 and it will
save you that much in time and frustration. Once the hub is out you
can get a pretty good idea of what is needed to press the old bearing out
and the new one in.

Good luck,

Scott
78 SC

[Marc A]

Go here http://vista.pca.org/sch/

And then to tech articles.

[Charlie Stylianos]

Last night Bill W. and I tried installing the new rear bearings in the trailing arm.

I rigged up a press using 1/2" threaded rod, 2 bolts, 2 washers and 2 large discs from a bearing/race driver set.

http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/media/LIS-12980.jpg

The bearings were sitting in the freezer for the last week in preparation for this install, so they were COLD. The trailing arm was heated at the bearing location with a propane torch for about 5 minutes. The frozen bearing at first wanted to slip right into place, but once it got 1/2" into the trailing arm it absorbed enough heat to expand it and lock it into place. We then used the rigged press and were able to successfully press it all the way home. It was a pretty tight fit, but slid right in.

The other side proved to get the best of us. We heated the trailing arm a little longer to see if we could get the bearing to slide in a bit further if not all the way w/o using the press, but again, it went in about 1/2', expanded and got stuck. We attached the press and continued like the other side, this time it was MUCH harder to press in. Bill and I both broke a sweat trying to turn the bolt on the threaded rod. We were pulling so hard, the spring plate was rotating against the torsion bar and the shock was compressing quite a bit. We got the bearing in about half way, then decided 'this ain't right' and called it a night. Made sure the trailing arm did not have any burrs/marks that would cause the bearing from sliding in and we made sure we started the bearing flush and we weren't trying to press it in crooked. Still don't know what caused the hang-up.

When we removed the press from the 2nd bearing, we noticed the inner race had a little play. We could actually wiggle the race within the bearing and move it back/forth. We went to other side and checked that race, and that one also had a little play, albeit not as much. I don't think the inner race's should have any play and unfortunately both bearings are probably ruined.

How this happened:

The large disc's were flat and did not have a relief for the inner race. This is the only thing I can think of. In the picture below, you can see the inner race protrudes just a little bit further than the outer race. When we used the press, it probably applied too much pressure to the inner race and deformed, causing the play.

http://www.dorkiphus.com/porsche/modules/albums/album12/untitled.jpg

I just ordered 2 new bearings, the trailing arms are coming off and will let a shop take care of pressing them in. Too expensive and frustrating to try again. :roll:

Kurt...arn't you glad you didn't take me up on my offer :wink:

[BW911]

Charlie, Excellent description and analysis of where we probably went wrong. I don't think the beer had anything to do with the foul up on the second one, either. 8)

I was over at Minh's this afternoon and I described the difficulty to him. He was surprised and thought it shouldn't be that hard if we heated it. I told him you might be by for help. I'm going over there tomorrow morning about 10 or so, if you are interested in going.

- Bill

[Doug E]

Great write-up Charlie and thanks for sharing. Hope the rest of your project goes a little smoother for you.

[Marc A]

I would have had Richard over after putting away a few PBRs and handed him a BFH . . . that would have put those bearings in thier place.

[Charlie Stylianos]

Found the problem this evening when I was removing the trailing arms. It was a little easier to see from the backside with the t-arms off. The bearing was not flush within the t-arm when we started to press it into place and did not straighten itself out. It was not obvoius at first and all it takes is just a little to cause problems. I could actually see a little digging of the bearing into the t-arm occuring from the backside.....ouch. Hopefully the bearing can be pressed out, the burring cleaned up and a new bearing installed.

[Charlie Stylianos]

Problem solved. The bearings and trailing arms are a-ok. :lol:

Took them by Pitstop this morning with Bill W. and they fixed them up. They said the play in the inner races is normal and they actually used the same type press, albiet BIGGER, to press them in. The first side Bill and I tackled turned out perfect, just needed a little more pressing (~.5mm). The other side had a pretty big score from where we pressed in the bearing crooked. He pulled the bearing out, cleaned up the arm and pressed it home. He did not use any heat/cold, just put the bearing in place and pressed it in. I think the extra clearance from the heat/cold actually allowed me to insert it cockeyed. Next time, I'd just use a press and some lubricant.

Ita amazing what a little coffee and donuts can do......

[Kurt S]

Silly me, after having the car looked at by Dave at Dulles Motorsports, he quietly told me the noise is coming from the front and not the rear. DOH! Whew, front bearings are easy!

Thanks to all who replied and offered input.

BTW, the car is for sale if you know anyone looking for a low mileage 87 Carrera that is as clean as they come. I placed an ad in the classifed section.

Regards

Kurt

[Doug E]

Kurt - selling???? are you looking to upgrade or (god forbid) are you going to a different marque?

For anyone on FR #3, Kurt's car was the red Carrera.

[Kurt S]

Hi Doug

Well, the plan is for a 993 if the budget will allow it although that is probably a long shot. Trouble was that I drove too many 993s and not enough 3.2 Carreras when I was looking for a Porsche and based my desire to have a 911 on what the newer car was like. Not that I don't like mine, it's great, but it's just not what I want in terms of performance etc. Besides, I want something I can drive on the track and for that the 993 does a great job right out of the box. I just can't bring myself to do that with my current car for fear of damage and I don't want to spend money on it in attempts to make it drive more to my liking.

Of course, a car of a different marque has always held great interest for me too and is what I will probably end up with since it fits my budget perfectly ;)

Can you say M Coupe?

Regards

Kurt

[Marc A]

Hey Kurt . . . . Richard has the poop on every available 993 in the world :roll:

Maybe he can share the research after his quest for the gold has ended.

IMHO forget about that other Marque.

[Rick Lee]

Kurt, I am buying a midnight blue '96 C2 tomorrow with 29.4k miles on her, lowered with new springs, new Kuhmos, Fabspeed exhaust, front and rear internal radar detector, blah, blah. This is the seller's 9th Porsche and he knows his $hit, which is worth some money for the peace of mind in itself. I have researched these cars VERY thoroughly - like for a few hours per day on Rennlist and www.p-car.com for the last 6 wks. Depending on your budget and pickiness, you can get nice '95's in the low-mid $30k range, though such deals don't grow on trees in this area. I came into a deal that already has all the mods that I would have done to it anyway and just had the 30k miles service done 500 miles ago. So I figure this car will keep me from the mod. slippery slope (for a little while). I've heard from plenty of 993 folks that annual maint. costs are under $500 per year, but the temptation to do mods can easily top $4k a year. :shock: It's just a never-ending thing.