Insurance canceled because of roll bar

[super90]

39584

1977 911
State farm: ......Sorry we cannot continue this insurance..... The reason for this action is:
Vehicle condition: This vehicle is altered with ineligible modifications including a non-factory roll bar.


Back story: been a customer for 15+ years, no moving violations, zero points,
have three houses and a dozen vehicles insured with them.

My agent appealed to the underwriter but was denied. Has this happened to anyone else?

[Patrick3000]

Is your roll bar removable? If so take it out and send them pictures of the car without the bar.

[HoodPin]

That sux! As far as I know, you don't even track that car, do you?

It would be a different matter if they could prove you tracked the, or even suspected you might be. But this "guilty and not even given a chance to prove yourself innocent" seems contrary to normal legal principles.

If that's not your daily driver, perhaps you can explore some of the collector car insurance companies, like Hagerty. My guess is they wouldn't be so obnoxious about add-ons appropriate to a tribute style vehicle.

It sounds to me like they StateFarm may be undergoing some financial issues, and is trying "upgrade" its portfolio of policies to obtain better ratings. Nationwide did some similar back in the '80's; after more than 10 years of accident free coverage, they suddenly decided that 2 points on my license due to a single ticket, from more than 2 years prior, was unacceptable to them. They cancelled me, not just my car. That is worse, as it makes you very unmarketable to other insurance companies. I paid a very costly State of MD coverage for about 6 months before another company would take me. I later heard from a friend in the insurance company that he was aware of Nationwide's shenanigans.

[super90]

Is your roll bar removable? If so take it out and send them pictures of the car without the bar.

Not a great option for me, yesterday I was diagnosed with a torn meniscus in my knee. No way I can take out both seats and a roll bar in my current condition.

Hood pin: I don't track it, I just bought it a few weeks ago. I would like to get back into DE events, thats part of the reason for buying it.

[Cliff Claven]

installation of a factory roll bar should resolve the issue. non-factory safety devices present more potential risk because they involve more unknowns....

[racer]

Bummer.. but they are just reading a sheet/checklist. May consider a Hagerty/Leland west policy? Just a thought, although they can be dicey too at times.

Good thing they weren't worried about the non factory front impact bumper being in place ;)

[Intubator]

Your roll bar ironically makes your car potentially safer, if properly engineered, installed and used... If it were to impede you or a passengers ability to exit after a collision or risk head injury then maybe that's why they would exclude it. I would contact the Maryland insurance commissioner and file a report, or at the very least speak with them. I had State Farm years ago and had an issue with them as well, not related to your situation. A letter to the commission detailing the situation followed by a phone call to State Farm resolved the situation within days. Does your policy exclude roll bars specifically?

[jrj3rd]

Rob

Sorry to hear about the knee. If pulling the roll bar would work and it is a bolt in, I am in Severna Park and could probably lend a hand if it helps.

John

[Dr K]

I have State Farm insurance (24 years). They insured the Targa with a bar, then a cage, dual use and even told me it would be covered in the track (9-10 years ago). Now have the pure race car insured with them. When insuring as a "Historic," I made it very clear I would not expect them to insure it on track, just everywhere else including driving to the shop, on the trailer, and in my garage. The insurance on the race car is very inexpensive.

[super90]

Is your roll bar removable? If so take it out and send them pictures of the car without the bar.

Rob

Sorry to hear about the knee. If pulling the roll bar would work and it is a bolt in, I am in Severna Park and could probably lend a hand if it helps.

John

Hey John, thanks very generous.

[smdubovsky]

Someone I know had SF and had their insurance cancelled over his roll bar.

Hagerty/Leland west

They also don't allow it. "Too much risk" or somesuch.

[Dvb0415]

check with Good Hands, maybe he can help. He is All State.

[spiffyjiff]

interesting: i have USAA for about 15yrs, no major incidents. after casually mentioning i "track my car" on (what i thought was) an innocuous phone call inquiring about their used car loans, they suddenly told me, "uh, you can't have insurance with us if you track your car". i explained that i have totally separate track insurance but they called foul anyway. wtf??? a friend from another insurance provider - and even my cousin who is a lifer/well entrenched at USAA - called bullsh*t on that "policy" of snubbing trackies. but alas, they can insure and drop whoever they want, right? so from now on, i will just keep my mouth shut and/or will have to remove that roll bar should i ever need to call in an adjuster. :D

[BlackTalon]

Just tell them the roll bar was installed so you could hang plush toys for your daughter to play with when you are driving her places.

[John Clay]

The big question for me here is if something like an aftermarket roll bar could get a denial of a claim. I suspect many have modifications that are specifically disallowed in their policies, the insurance companies just don't know it.

I'm pretty conservative about sticking to my classic car insurance policy on the 944. I never drive it to work during a weekday even though that would be a convenient way of making sure it gets driven (I subscribe to the don't let a car sit more than a week or two theory).

[N0tt0N]

Almost every aftermarket part you buy specifically states it is for off road use only - even parts that are better or safer. I don't think most folks read the material that comes with them. Car manufacturers are the same way - there was an interesting letter from Porsche regarding why they don't support Cayman racing. They said they don't support ANY type of racing of their street cars. Only cars purchased directly from Porsche with off-road use only certificates are supported for liability reasons. They can't even risk someone buying a cup car and then streeting it so they simply do not have street certifications. That the insurance companies would take the same position isn't a huge surprise, if disappointing.

Dropping you for owning a race car off their policy is completely Chickensh*t on the other hand.

[scott]

Roll bars in street cars=head injuries for passengers. I can understand the insurance issues.

Scott

[blipshift]

Check with Hagerty's. Your car definitely fits their requirements and my guess is that premium will be cheaper.

[kapflaco]

What do most of you folks do for track insurance?

[Vicegrip]

I drive a cheap car.

[John Clay]

It's not the car. It's medical bills (of other people)

Edit - I see VG was responding to track insurance. Yes - cheap car (although in the minority on that one).

[good hands]

Really stupid on State Farms part but underwriting is very inconsistent within companies. Shoot me a pm if you'd like to talk. That car really does belong with Haggerty assuming it is strictly pleasure street use. I usually place business there for customers with classics.

[Roo]

Oh joy....I've almost finished welding in a DAS Sport roll cage in my 911.....been with SF for 32 years.....

[Hunter]

So if a friend of mine were to look for street car insurance that may have a lot of safety improvements where do you guys recommend? My friend may or may not have one of those alphabet insurance company's.

[smdubovsky]

Roll bars in street cars=head injuries for passengers

That's highly debatable. I consider it an old wife's tail. (unless you're talking about REAR seat passengers:))

[blipshift]

I use an alphabet soup insurance company's preferred member equivalent of Hagerty called American Collector for about $90 less a year on premium. You could also just use Hagerty. Neither cares that I have a roll bar, in fact you have to submit pictures of cars with any modifications including a cage, roll bar etc. The 997 was the hardest to get insured because it's "new." Since I insure 3 Porsches they call it a "collection." 944's save the day, again.

Just remember, they won't insure the cars for track use but disclosure that you track the cars does not restrict you from getting insurance for street use.

[HoodPin]

I use an alphabet soup insurance company's preferred member equivalent of Hagerty called American Collector for about $90 less a year on premium. You could also just use Hagerty. Neither cares that I have a roll bar, in fact you have to submit pictures of cars with any modifications including a cage, roll bar etc. The 997 was the hardest to get insured because it's "new." Since I insure 3 Porsches they call it a "collection." 944's save the day, again.

Just remember, they won't insure the cars for track use but disclosure that you track the cars does not restrict you from getting insurance for street use.

IIRC, American Collector used to provide Track Insurance. For a period, we had coverage for both the Boxster and 944S2. But then they notified us that they were no longer going to be providing that sort of coverage. Haven't tried it yet, but I believe PCA's partnered with Lockton Insurance for reasonable priced DE coverage.

[Carrera51]

Talk with Good Hands. Then I would kindly inform SF that you will be taking your business elsewhere, all your vehicles.

[Hunter]

Any other options besides American Collector or Hagerty? I think I will contact them and ask about options as I don't want an issue with my other cars with my alphabet company since I have been with them for over 25 years.

[blipshift]

Any other options besides American Collector or Hagerty? I think I will contact them and ask about options as I don't want an issue with my other cars with my alphabet company since I have been with them for over 25 years.

Ask your company if they can provide collector car insurance or if they have a subsidiary. You're not going to be able to insure all your cars with companies like Hagerty or AC, anyways.

[blipshift]

quick google of collector car insurance reveals:
Grundy
Geico
Progressive
JC Taylor
Heacock Classic
American Modern Insurance Group
Esurance
Chubb
Barrett Jackson
StateFarm
Safeco
Farmers

I have no idea what you should expect from those listed above. I'd check with Hagerty first and then if you're ambitious give some other folks a buzz and get a quote. 15m could save you...??? :lol:

[good hands]

This thread is a great example of why you should use a trusted agent. Conversations can be " off the record " about most scenarios. If you call USAA or Geico or Progressive anything you say is documented and can and will be used against you.

To the original poster I would like to know how and why the company found out about the roll bar if you have an agent ? If someone calls to add a car to their policy I would never even ask about a roll bar ( for the record anyway )

[Ryan]

That's why we all should use Scott ( I do). Plus then he can afford more slicks and maybe win GTB1 this year:p

[Hunter]

My friend told me he called Hagerty and American Collectors Insurance last night. He said he was upfront about his street legal car that has a cage, PCA, DE, etc. Both willing to offer insurance. Hagerty was 25% more expensive than ACI.

He told me this is being researched since he doesn't want to risk losing his current alphabet insurance company.

Just FYI.

[ducatithunder]

If you are USAA member you can get a discount with AMerican Collectors. I have them for my other road going cars. 3 Free $200 tows a year, spare parts insurance and will insure resto projects and the premium is really good. Agreed value as well.

[ausgeflippt951]

This is a very interesting thread. May I ask how your agent found out about the roll bar? Do they do things differently in MD as part of the inspection?


Were I actually in town I'd be happy to help you remove the bar.


I'm not sure what this is all about -- I wonder if they're undergoing some kind of transformation. I've had a variety of providers over the years and for me, SF has unequivocally been the best (though I haven't yet tried All State with Scott!).


When I moved to VA and switched to my current agent, I was very candid with him about tracking the car. His response was that yes: my car is covered in full as long as I am not driving competitively. Driving on track -- particularly when the event is titled "Driver's Education" is covered in full.

I have this response both in writing and as a voicemail saved on my phone. I'm beginning to wonder if this is not enough CYA, though.


And for the record, I don't recall Hagerty's being all that great a deal. I seem to recall their premium was higher than SF when I looked into using them. And their coverage didn't seem any better. :?

[Hunter]

This is a very interesting thread. May I ask how your agent found out about the roll bar? Do they do things differently in MD as part of the inspection?


Were I actually in town I'd be happy to help you remove the bar.


I'm not sure what this is all about -- I wonder if they're undergoing some kind of transformation. I've had a variety of providers over the years and for me, SF has unequivocally been the best (though I haven't yet tried All State with Scott!).


When I moved to VA and switched to my current agent, I was very candid with him about tracking the car. His response was that yes: my car is covered in full as long as I am not driving competitively. Driving on track -- particularly when the event is titled "Driver's Education" is covered in full.

I have this response both in writing and as a voicemail saved on my phone. I'm beginning to wonder if this is not enough CYA, though.


And for the record, I don't recall Hagerty's being all that great a deal. I seem to recall their premium was higher than SF when I looked into using them. And their coverage didn't seem any better. :?

I am not the OP but to share a little more on a statement you touched on, I too asked my alphabet company 11 years ago after joining PCA and starting my DE training and it seemed okay. I believe as time has past they are not as willing to go along with the program. If one were to read the statements in the policies now most will touch on the subject regardless of what lower level person may have said on the phone to you or me. This is why I purchased separate track insurance for DE events. However, in light of the OP and other comments it seems that there may be too much risk to you, me or any other DE person when driving on the street with a bar or worse cage in the car. It appears some companies may pay the claim if you are involved in an incident which, may or may not have been your fault and then drop you altogether afterwords. Or worse try to get a policy and mention or have them inspect and see a roll bar and puff all the policies go out the window. Dad didn't fly Mach+ 60 years ago for that!

[good hands]

Here is the standard exclusion in Va :

11. Loss to your covered auto or any non-owned auto,
located inside a facility designed for racing, for the
purpose of:
a. Competing in; or

b.
Practicing or preparing for;

any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.


Things really have changed in the nine years I have been tracking a car. Claims adjusters have become more aware of how cars are being used on track for sure.

It would seem to me that if you use your car for DE you would be safe based on this exclusion but it is up to a claims adjuster to interpret how you used your car on the track. More and more it seems they are denying coverage based on how " track prepped ' your car is, what kind of tires were on the car at the time of the accident, and the organization you are running with. The bottom line is that incidents on track are treated very inconsistently and coverage can be denied by any company at any time.IMHO it's not worth taking the chance . Track insurance is worth the investment if you can't afford to ball up your car and walk away.

[blipshift]

And for the record, I don't recall Hagerty's being all that great a deal. I seem to recall their premium was higher than SF when I looked into using them. And their coverage didn't seem any better. :?

Hagerty's quoted premium on the 944s was slightly better than my DD insurance but they don't cost much to insure in the first place. Premium quote on the 911 was halved, annually.

[joep]

Here is the standard exclusion in Va :

...any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.


well I'm glad an autox wouldn't be considered under this clause. :roll:

Although the scale of potential claims is much smaller, its still an at risk event now isn't it?

And let us not forget ANY road rallies where timing is a factor? I think for the most part rallys don't include time to avoid reasons for speeding, but I'm sure then been a few...

[HoodPin]

I believe that some DE/Track Programs even specifically prohibit the use of timing equipment, to further allay the illusion of competition.

[slbates]

It seems that we have less and less opportunity to modify our cars as a part of self expression as well. Soon you may need the equivalent of a STC to change the color of you floor mats.

I was turned away from two inspection stations last year. One refused to let me pull into the bay since my car was illegally lowered. The other said to take it someplace else due to “illegal aftermarket” seatbelts. I found it strange since my ride height is factory as are the factory yellow seatbelts.

My 76 Renegade came with factory roll bars and very little padding. I wonder if they refuse to insure older Jeeps as well...

[Dandelion]

It seems that we have less and less opportunity to modify our cars as a part of self expression as well. Soon you may need the equivalent of a STC to change the color of you floor mats.

I was turned away from two inspection stations last year. One refused to let me pull into the bay since my car was illegally lowered. The other said to take it someplace else due to “illegal aftermarket” seatbelts. I found it strange since my ride height is factory as are the factory yellow seatbelts.

My 76 Renegade came with factory roll bars and very little padding. I wonder if they refuse to insure older Jeeps as well...

That's weird of them. I've never had any place blink twice at my cars (w/ obviously modified powertrains, aftermarket rollbars, low ride height (factory or aftermarket), colorful 3-point belts, and/or 6-point harnesses). The place I usually go is a local Sunoco station, nothing special or otherwise catering to a racey DE-type crowd.

ed

[Hunter]

It seems that we have less and less opportunity to modify our cars as a part of self expression as well. Soon you may need the equivalent of a STC to change the color of you floor mats.

I was turned away from two inspection stations last year. One refused to let me pull into the bay since my car was illegally lowered. The other said to take it someplace else due to “illegal aftermarket” seatbelts. I found it strange since my ride height is factory as are the factory yellow seatbelts.

My 76 Renegade came with factory roll bars and very little padding. I wonder if they refuse to insure older Jeeps as well...

Must be another aircraft guy around here, "Supplemental Type Certificate".:cool:

Scary as it sounds you are right.

[Eric S]

well I'm glad an autox wouldn't be considered under this clause. :roll:

Although the scale of potential claims is much smaller, its still an at risk event now isn't it?

Autocross is a timed, competitive event. As such, autocross has long been excluded from coverage, even when DE wasn't.

The insurance companies are increasingly tightening restrictions and exclusion terminology to lower their exposure of cars modified with track equipment (faster, more confident, etc. = more risk in their eyes) or while driven on a racetrack.

[RV4Flyer]

Must be another aircraft guy around here, "Supplemental Type Certificate".:cool:

This is why I fly an EAB. No worries on STC's or SB's or anything else our helpful FAA decides to make me spend money on.

We already know the insurance company will exclude any claims from a DE incident but having a safer car on the street is a problem for them? Does it specifically exclude coverage in the contract for having the roll bar or worded to include that? If not send a complaint letter to the insurance commissioner in your state or perhaps it is time to find another insurance company. I had a billing issue with USAA here in MD and the insurance commision was all over them in a heartbeat. It rather surprised me but the situation was quickly resolved.

[Chopper Dropper]

Trouble is who defines "safer" the original car manufacturer, the cage/roll bar maker/installer, street hype? A roll bar on a street car with a 3 point belt can be way more dangerous to the occupants.
Dirk

[joep]

Trouble is who defines "safer" the original car manufacturer, the cage/roll bar maker/installer, street hype? A roll bar on a street car with a 3 point belt can be way more dangerous to the occupants.
Dirk

I realize this is a rabbit hole question, but could you expand on this a little more more please?

With my BK roll bar on my boxster I too have a dog in this discussion.

And for me its about 90% street driving only. The chances of crushing my skull in the event of a roll over is 100% without it. With it the chances drop to 100% plus 3 in" before I die.

For purposes of this argument let's assume the aftermarket safety device IS effective as designed, and IS installed properly.

What's the negative side of this for them?

[Jazzbass]

What's the negative side of this for them?
We say all the time that roll bars, like other pieces track oriented safety equipment, are part of a system. Rollbars are designed to be used with racing seats, harnesses and a driver in a helmet. If you're in an on-track incident with these things, you're strapped tightly to your seat and in what movement is left your head is protected by the helmet.

On the street with 3 pt belts and no helmet, in an accident there is a LOT more movement in the cabin. The rollbar then becomes something to bash your unprotected head against.

[John Clay]

If you roll over on the street and the BK extension keeps your head from being the first contact point with the ground, that's probably good. If you are in a non-rollover crash and your head hits an unpadded BK extension, that's probably bad.

[joep]

If you roll over on the street and the BK extension keeps your head from being the first contact point with the ground, that's probably good. If you are in a non-rollover crash and your head hits an unpadded BK extension, that's probably bad.

Ok, this and what Jazz says makes sense, but in my example its a properly installed device.

As it happens, my bar is padded. I fully understand that if it were to break off, or if a body were thrown against it where the padding isn't, its a problem. But the same is true of any piece of metal the manufacture "installed" in the original car. At some point we're beginning to split hairs over who's responsible for what.

The whole point of insurance is to mitigate the cost of accidents to the consumer, not the risk of injuries.

[HoodPin]

In a Boxster roll over, I'm more concerned about all the metal rails and such in the convertible top, suddenly becoming a swarm of random spears....

[John Clay]

No knowledge of the industry at all, but I suspect insurance companies may think folks will wreck their cars on track, then claim it happened on the street.

[Chopper Dropper]

Even with padding on a roll bar, it is an "intrusion" in the relatively smooth stock interior. Smooth interior, your noggin slides along to some degree, coming across even a padded roll bar will stop the noggin whilst the rest of you and your neck are nicely twisted!! Look at Good Hands video and see how much a driver with full safety gear, six point, side nets, halo seat etc moves, admittedly at slightly faster than normal street speeds. If no helmet, the 3 point seat belt allows one to move within an area that is relatively smooth. Roll over street accidents are much rarer than side, rear, front impacts.
Dirk

[Trak Ratt]

This thread is a great example of why you should use a trusted agent. Conversations can be " off the record " about most scenarios. If you call USAA or Geico or Progressive anything you say is documented and can and will be used against you.

To the original poster I would like to know how and why the company found out about the roll bar if you have an agent ? If someone calls to add a car to their policy I would never even ask about a roll bar ( for the record anyway ) In a lot of cases you'd just need to walk around the pits :p

If you roll over on the street and the BK extension keeps your head from being the first contact point with the ground, that's probably good. If you are in a non-rollover crash and your head hits an unpadded BK extension, that's probably bad.If your head hits anything in your car, even if parked it's going to hurt. Add speed and it will hurt more.

[Dr K]

The roll cage in my Targa (padded) felt a lot milder then the steel at the edges of the Targa top.

[joep]

OK, I don't like it, but what I'm reading here makes some sense about how modifications aren't always a good thing for regular street use.

But I also think there is a big gray area where it seems they maybe throwing the baby out with the bath water too. Its unfortunate, but all the more reason to drive safely too.

[Eric S]

OK, I don't like, but what I reading here makes some sense about how modifications aren't always a good thing for regular street use.

But I also think there is a big gray area where it seems they maybe throwing the baby out with the bath water too. Its unfortunate, but all the more reason to drive safely too.

In this case I suspect that it is also a matter of reducing financial exposure based on perceived intent of use. Most people don't install a roll bar for street use; I can imagine the company thinking that by putting one in it surely means you're up to something risky, including wanting to protect yourself when going fast, and probably on a racetrack.