Is there a good way to mechanically clean old drain lines?

[JmuRiz]

My house was built in 1940 and more and more often the drains in the upstairs bathroom need cleaning (chemicals or baking soda/vinegar, occasionally snaking). We use a mesh strainer in the tub so no hair goes down.
I think with the old age, they used cast iron drain lines.

Does anyone know a good way to mechanically clean the insides of these drain lines to allow for better drain flow?

Would this just weaken the pipes too much and cause ruptures?
Hopefully we can hold off until we save up money to redo the kitchen (bathroom is above the kitchen)...but that's many years down the road if possible.

Thanks for your input.

[roundel]

I had my drains snaked with a attachment on the end that scraped the walls.

[Vicegrip]

^this. Cast iron gets rough and choked up with time and tide. The work is not always easy or simple but it is always messy. The cutter of choice I like is the 3/4 round ring cutter. I run hot water if I can while cutting to keep the stuff moving down stream and my gear clean while extracting the snakes. Start with the furthest smallest lines and run to the larger ones. Bathroom sinks are often the worst to clear up as you need to get them smooth to keep from catching hair and the like. You will need to remove the trap and ell and run straight in. Keep in mind you only need to run the small cutters the lenght of the small pipes. 60 feet of 1.0 cutter head will not do much after the first 4 feet. I also like to go on the roof and run down the vent stacks with right sized cutters. Once you run the sink line pull the toilet and run the right sized cutter to the basement and then vent stack while flowing water. Do this to each bathroom and the kitchen then open the cleanout to the main soil pipe and run the right sized cutter to the street. Run water during large line cutting to flush the cuttings or you run the risk of a later clog from pipe flakes.
This work is not fun and is often poorly done by even well paid contractors.

No, I don't.

[Dr K]

No, I don't.

:D p

[HoodPin]

Mechanical cleaning is probably best. Have also heard about using enzymatic degreaser in the pipes, to let the little bugs do some/much of the work for you. Run hot water through the pipe first, to soften the grease. Then pour in a dose of degreaser. Best done before bed to let it sit overnite. A couple days of this can bring some results.

For clogged traps, I've had great results with Zip-It (or similar) tool. Get the barbs into the clog and then twist a couple of times. Then pull back out a nice nasty hair clog. Have a trash can/bag handy, and if you're ok with peeling the gunk off, the tool can re-used:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61t8VSmxQvL._SL1500_.jpg

[JmuRiz]

I had my drains snaked with a attachment on the end that scraped the walls.

Good to know (along with Kurt's info) who did yours?

I also saw something called a clog-hog in Family Handyman magazine, but I'm guessing that's not good enough for steel pipe cleaning.

[ruffyz]

This probably won't work for you, but at least it has a funny commercial http://youtu.be/Z7fz0jpuLkM

[JmuRiz]

That is funny, need more than that though...suckers have 73 years of gunk built up in them...I have a corkscrew type snake, but it only helps for a little while, that's why I think I need something more like what Kurt was talking about.

[roundel]

who did yours?



I am in Baltimore so this probably won't help you, but Bruce Solomon Plumbing (410) 833-2188

I am sure most plumbers can do exactly what Kurt describes. That is what was done for me. Just ask if they have a 100' snake with the tips Kurt mentioned.

I am on septic, so I was able to see the cutter exit into the tank. Usually the cutter is on the opposite side of the system.
:twisted:

[Roo]

In my early career, I was a utility engineer and cast iron pipe was our nemesis, in the main lines and lateral lines connecting houses to the municipal sewer system. Prior to the early 1960's most houses used cast iron for drains. Cast iron has an insidious lifespan that includes a wonderful transformation called tuberculation. Tuberculation is the growth of iron oxide nodules on the surface of the pipe ID. Over time, the nodules continue to "grow" and effectively close down the pipe ID. Even with fresh water, but, more problematic with drains lines due to the wide range of chemicals and soaps, cast iron reacts with all of the stuff flowing through to promote the tuberculation nodules.
As shown the attached picture, tuberculation has a rough profile so it easily snags the stuff we flush down the drain, further choking an already necked down ID. As noted above by other contributors, there are various methods to scour the ID, but, metal cutters are the only marginally effective method to improve flow in tuberculated cast iron. In 6” and larger cast iron commercial cutters exist to remove all the tuberculation in preparation for lining the ID (with a resin/epoxy impregnated material sock). However, with smaller ID cast iron there aren’t any really effective/affordable ways to eliminate the tuberculation except to replace the pipe with larger diameter PVC.
Compounding the tuberculation problem is trunk drain lines in older homes was originally only 2”, 2-1/2”, or 3”, not the current BOC standard 4”. With the already smaller ID in homes with cast iron, tuberculation has a bigger impact. For example, my house had 2” and 3” drain lines tied into a 3” cast iron trunk line. At least once a year I had to snake the lines including the roof vents to keep things moving. Several years ago, I replaced all the drain lines with 3” lateral and 4” trunk PVC under the house and I installed a new 4” PVC drain from the house to the street cleanout. Drain issues are history now.
One point about snaking drain lines, when practical it’s more effective to snake upstream with water running so dislodged material flows in already cleaned pipe. Unfortunately, most home drain systems are not configured to snake upstream.
Since replacing drain lines in a house may be difficult if you don’t have basement/crawlspace access, starting with the main trunk line from the house to the street usually pays off immediately. We had great success improving building drain function by replacing the main trunk line from the building to the street. This approach has worked well on several houses of friends/family who had similar problems, but, couldn’t afford to replace the pipes under the house too.

I hope this helps add to the knowledge (i.e. frustration) level :bang:

[JmuRiz]

Great info, thanks. I may have to to resort to changing the lines out to PVC over time as I update the levels of my house. First will be the kitchen and below (as we're redoing the basement), then the kitchen and above (bathroom) when we redo the kitchen later.

We're also thinking of doing a retaining wall and one side will go on the side where the main drain exits to the street. It may be a good time to replace all that pipe when we do that.

All it takes is money we don't have right?

[Dr K]

In my early career, I was a utility engineer and cast iron pipe was our nemesis, in the main lines and lateral lines connecting houses to the municipal sewer system. Prior to the early 1960's most houses used cast iron for drains. Cast iron has an insidious lifespan that includes a wonderful transformation called tuberculation. Tuberculation is the growth of iron oxide nodules on the surface of the pipe ID. Over time, the nodules continue to "grow" and effectively close down the pipe ID. Even with fresh water, but, more problematic with drains lines due to the wide range of chemicals and soaps, cast iron reacts with all of the stuff flowing through to promote the tuberculation nodules.
As shown the attached picture, tuberculation has a rough profile so it easily snags the stuff we flush down the drain, further choking an already necked down ID. As noted above by other contributors, there are various methods to scour the ID, but, metal cutters are the only marginally effective method to improve flow in tuberculated cast iron. In 6” and larger cast iron commercial cutters exist to remove all the tuberculation in preparation for lining the ID (with a resin/epoxy impregnated material sock). However, with smaller ID cast iron there aren’t any really effective/affordable ways to eliminate the tuberculation except to replace the pipe with larger diameter PVC.
Compounding the tuberculation problem is trunk drain lines in older homes was originally only 2”, 2-1/2”, or 3”, not the current BOC standard 4”. With the already smaller ID in homes with cast iron, tuberculation has a bigger impact. For example, my house had 2” and 3” drain lines tied into a 3” cast iron trunk line. At least once a year I had to snake the lines including the roof vents to keep things moving. Several years ago, I replaced all the drain lines with 3” lateral and 4” trunk PVC under the house and I installed a new 4” PVC drain from the house to the street cleanout. Drain issues are history now.
One point about snaking drain lines, when practical it’s more effective to snake upstream with water running so dislodged material flows in already cleaned pipe. Unfortunately, most home drain systems are not configured to snake upstream.
Since replacing drain lines in a house may be difficult if you don’t have basement/crawlspace access, starting with the main trunk line from the house to the street usually pays off immediately. We had great success improving building drain function by replacing the main trunk line from the building to the street. This approach has worked well on several houses of friends/family who had similar problems, but, couldn’t afford to replace the pipes under the house too.

I hope this helps add to the knowledge (i.e. frustration) level :bang:

No, I don't
FTFY :p

[Roo]

Yeah, it's pricey if you don't do the work yourself.

My house needed new pipe more than I could afford to pay someone. Since I had the experience, buying the PVC was cheap, my time wasn't.....I'd like to have had that time back to work on cars. But, if I had paid someone, then I wouldn't have the cars.
Evil Catch 22

[Patrick3000]

Great info, thanks. I may have to to resort to changing the lines out to PVC over time as I update the levels of my house. First will be the kitchen and below (as we're redoing the basement), then the kitchen and above (bathroom) when we redo the kitchen later.

This is the solution that we used when a new bathroom was added upstairs and two other bathrooms were updated. Replaced all of the 75 year old drain pipe in the entire house with PVC, three and a half Bathrooms, kitchen etc. We also snaked the main sewer line 86 feet to the street. Ironically the snake broke six feet into the main and required digging up a quarter of the basement to retrieve the busted snake :bang:

Sometimes you can’t make this stuff up, the problem persisted until I had the local utility run a pig down the street. They were reluctant to do so until I showed them the bill for retrofitting the house and explained that we were going on record with the insurance company and documenting their refusal to clear the sewer line. I had the guy look down the sewer with a camera and asked how many 75 year old houses did they want to be responsible for backed up sewer lines. That got their attention, after the pig no more issues, so the problem may not be with your lines.

[JmuRiz]

Interesting, my neighbor redid the pipes in his house and said it's better, but not totally fixed...and his neighbor also has slow drain issues (their house was totally renovated about 8 years ago). Hmmmmm.

[Roo]

Did your neighbor also replace the pipe from the house to the sewer line at the street?

[Vicegrip]

Did your neighbor also replace the pipe from the house to the sewer line at the street? Wass thinking the same thing.
Changing the house lines but not to the city conection or at least inspecting and cutting as needed can make for a messy downstairs bathroom when upstairs toilets comes out downstairs rather than just passing through. :shock:

Considering the hill you live on I would think you and next door would have plenty of gravity assist for the last portion of the run. What is still "slow"?

[JmuRiz]

I checked again with him (he's in the Hague and renting the house for a year) but he said he still has to put draino or something down it every 2-3 months to keep it draining full speed. I think it's mainly his upstairs bathroom though.

[Roo]

If the drain lines are too steep (greater the 1/4" per foot), the liquids flow faster than the "solids", and leave the solids, errr....stuck in the pipe. If enough time passes before the next flush or washer load, the solids can become "drier" and an impediment to flow.
That scenario would be temporarily remedied with draino flushes and roto-rootering....or chasing every meal with Ex-Lax

[Vicegrip]

I checked again with him (he's in the Hague and renting the house for a year) but he said he still has to put draino or something down it every 2-3 months to keep it draining full speed. I think it's mainly his upstairs bathroom though.
I had a case where the plumdumbstumber was a hack and did not bother to dress the cut ends of the PVC pipes on the sink and toilet lines. The rough saw cuts acted like hooks and snagged hair and "other stuff" and were real good at it too. The wife and kids were not good at not flushing things with strings and wipes that are not to be flushed and they snagged all the time. Took a look to figure out what was going on. Used a honed sharp ring cutter on a drop head snake and fed it to each joint that was causing an issue letting it spin for a while as we fed it in and out as we lingered on each pipe end area. Took a while but was less time than cutting and patching tiled and painted walls.

[JmuRiz]

Yep, my parents' plumber dressed the cuts and I really liked him, but he no longer does residential side projects. Kind of why I'm nervous to have a new plumber work for me...oh well.

In our houses it could also be that the pitch isn't great enough in the upstairs bathrooms. I guess no way to really tell unless you either clean them all with a cutting snake or redo the whole SOB.

I guess I'll find out at some point.

[JmuRiz]

Looks like that 'some point' is now. Was using a simple snake to try and clean my upstairs basement sinks drain again. Didn't work, so I tried to unscrew the 90 so I could get straight into the wall...couldn't get it totally off but was able to get some stuff loose. That stuff felt a lot like rusty metal. Put everything back together to see if my hunch/fear was real. Yep clog didn't leg go and a nice leak at the 90 I was trying to take off.

Looks like it's time to call a plumber to figure out how to fix it.

Kid 1 week or less away, not a good last minute surprise.

We're trying Caffi (they did my neighbor's house that "kind-of works better", because my favorite plumber I trust doesn't do home work anymore.
Anyone have other suggestions for plumbers that work around Arlington?

[Dr K]

We use Mike Griffin (NOT the same as the Griffin plumbing in Mt. Vernon). Very small company, great guy (DrFirst uses him, too). Not a cut-rate plumber but real attention to detail. We've been very happy with the work he's done in our home, which includes some very serious rerouting of entire systems when we redid our basement. PM me if you want me to get his number.