First Time Tracking the 997

[CanAm]

I tracked my 997.1S for the first time (at VIR) this past weekend. Contrary to what many would say, I found it easier to drive than the Cayman R, with nicely predictable and controllable rotation and throttle steering. The additional power is also noticeable, and I suspect that it'll put down significantly faster lap times. The 997S feels powerful enough, the Cayman R feels like it wants more power.

Had a couple problems though. I was driving the car pretty hard by the end of the weekend, to the extent that PSM seemed to be fighting me a lot (more than the Cayman) when heavy on throttle in tighter corners , and then a 'PSM Failure' light came on and stayed on for the rest of the session, but didn't turn back on when I turned off the car and restarted it. I don't know what caused it or the implications, but I need to check into it. I'm thinking that I may have reached the point where I need to drive with PSM off - wish me luck! :shock:

The car was also shaking too much at speeds over 110. I thought that maybe I just I had a lot of rubber stuck to the tires and throwing off the balance, but I didn't notice that in other cars I rode in, and I previously drove the car at similar speeds with no shaking. I'll get that checked out too.

Bottom line is that, for now, I like the 997 better than the Cayman on both track and road. And considering that I paid around $40K for the car in mint condition with low miles, I think a 997.1S may be one of the better values out there for a trackable car.

[LPM911]

Based on my experience, the shimmy might just be that the tire has slipped on the rim under heavy braking. Next time at the track, take a tire pen and mark the tire just above the valve stem. Then see how far it moves over the weekend and if the shimmy comes back. Just means you need to have the tire rebalanced on the wheel.

[BlackTalon]

You fought the PSM, it did not fight you. It was likely saving you from power-on oversteer.

Car is not 'easier to drive' -- it takes different techniques to wring all the performance out of it though, and it will take you a while to figure it all out. It feels and reacts different then what you have been used to.

Also sounds like you may have a suspension issue; check alignment, bushings, etc.

[CanAm]

You fought the PSM, it did not fight you. It was likely saving you from power-on oversteer.

Car is not 'easier to drive' -- it takes different techniques to wring all the performance out of it though, and it will take you a while to figure it all out. It feels and reacts different then what you have been used to.

Also sounds like you may have a suspension issue; check alignment, bushings, etc.

I suspect that you're right about the power oversteer. But what about turning PSM off? There's a risk in doing that, but I wonder if having PSM frequently save me will be detrimental to learning in the long run. I'm inclined to turn it off, get proper safety gear, build up gradually, and learn to drive it that way. The threshold for PSM to intervene in this car seems too low, and lower than the Cayman R in Sport mode.

By easier to drive, it seems to rotate more slowly and predictably, though you need to be ahead of the car more. Maybe I'll have a different thought on this after more track time with it, but I though I'd put the observation out there for comment anyway.

Will get the suspension checked out. I got the car with only 13K mile and never tracked, so would the issue be due to the track use?

[FrankyV]

lower than the Cayman R in Sport mode.

Were you running the new car is sport mode? That is how I ran my 997.1 at the track with the PSM on and Sport Mode on and I didn't feel like the PSM as too intrusive. I was running dedicated R1s though not street tires. My car did have the Sport Chrono Plus package, which does activate higher PSM and ABS thresholds. What tires are you running and does your car have the Sport Chrono Plus?

[spiffyjiff]

Based on my experience, the shimmy might just be that the tire has slipped on the rim under heavy braking. Next time at the track, take a tire pen and mark the tire just above the valve stem. Then see how far it moves over the weekend and if the shimmy comes back. Just means you need to have the tire rebalanced on the wheel.

my 888's move a LOT - maybe all the way around (and probably even then some). i think the guys at radial tire will gum/tack (?) the mounting surface to prevent slipping but i forgot to ask. either way, i dont like it and i'm sure it affects my braking.

[CanAm]

Were you running the new car is sport mode? That is how I ran my 997.1 at the track with the PSM on and Sport Mode on and I didn't feel like the PSM as too intrusive. I was running dedicated R1s though not street tires. My car did have the Sport Chrono Plus package, which does activate higher PSM and ABS thresholds. What tires are you running and does your car have the Sport Chrono Plus?

Ran it in Sport mode. I have the little clock on the dash, so it may have Sport Chrono, but I'm not sure, and probably don't have Sport Chrono Plus. I was on new R888s. Could be that I was just enjoying the power of the car too much. :bang: I'd get the rear to wiggle with the power coming out of Oak Tree, but it was controllable and I'd guess that I didn't trigger PSM. But I'm pretty sure I triggered it a lot through T1/2 and the turn coming out of hogpen.

my 888's move a LOT - maybe all the way around (and probably even then some). i think the guys at radial tire will gum/tack (?) the mounting surface to prevent slipping but i forgot to ask. either way, i dont like it and i'm sure it affects my braking.

When I have my shop check it out, I'll ask them what they can do to keep the tires from moving around. The shaking was pretty bad at the higher speeds, to the point where I had to hold the wheel firmly.

Do you run with PSM off? Any advice on driving the car in general?

[FrankyV]

Do you run with PSM off?

No less an authority than Mike Levitas told me he runs these modern cars with the PSM on at all times and my experience was that it only intervened when I was in trouble and needed the help.

[Seltzer]

There is a reason Porsche designed PSM. We had a great discussion about it (and all the other new Porsche systems) at the recent instructor refresher day-long class. Bottom line is that it should be left on. Futhermore, if i recall correctly, even if you turn it off, it will kick in when you get the car too far out of sorts.

[Seltzer]

No less an authority than Mike Levitas told me he runs these modern cars with the PSM on at all times and my experience was that it only intervened when I was in trouble and needed the help.

Mike was the discussion leader at the instructor class.

[CanAm]

No less an authority than Mike Levitas told me he runs these modern cars with the PSM on at all times and my experience was that it only intervened when I was in trouble and needed the help.

He certainly an authority round these parts. IIRC, John Sullivan also runs with PSM on, or at least advises doing so. I'm really not sure what to do, and opinions on this from experienced people seems to be all over the spectrum.

If the threshold for PSM to kick in is high, makes sense to leave it on because you'll likely need it at that point, and it shouldn't getting in the way otherwise. If the threshold is low, as seems to be the case with many BMWs, I'd be inclined to turn it off but exercise due caution.

[CanAm]

There is a reason Porsche designed PSM. We had a great discussion about it (and all the other new Porsche systems) at the recent instructor refresher day-long class. Bottom line is that it should be left on. Futhermore, if i recall correctly, even if you turn it off, it will kick in when you get the car too far out of sorts.

I haven't checked with the 997, but with the Cayman R my understanding is:

- In normal mode (non-Sport), if PSM is off, it will come back on if either front brake goes into ABS.

- In Sport mode, PSM will come back on if both front brakes go into ABS.

- Otherwise, if PSM is off, it will stay off, so there will be no help if the car starts to spin.

- I've heard from other Cayman drovers that when PSM is off, they suspect that it's still on more than what I've noted above, but they weren't specific. I know of one driver (Red instructor) who put in a switch to disable the yaw sensor to help keep PSM off.

[Chakka]

My guess is that it is saving you and would suggest leaving it on. You may not think you're driving it hard, but I doubt that John Sullivan or Levatis are driving less aggressive than you. They are driving the car with much more control, so PSM doesn't do much. My guess is you aren't(not judging just saying). Especially since you're not used to the cars tendencies. Leave it on and make it you're goal to get smoother and not have it come on at all. My guess is your lap times will come down.........

[ausgeflippt951]

Glad to hear you had a great time -- congrats on getting the car out there.

If the 888's are anything like the RA-1's, the squirminess is likely a function of the height of the tread blocks (though the RA-1's do have smaller treads so all else being equal I would expect the RA-1's to be worse). It's a common practice for people to have their RA-1's shaved to decrease this propensity.


Regardless, the instability at speed is the most concerning to me: sounds like you've got something amiss, such as a bad ball joint or tie rod. Perhaps bad suspension. Get the car up on jack stands and make sure all the bolts are tight. You've been to VIR more than I, however: the track surface could just have been the issue (think T1 at Summit).



So, I really hesitate typing the following, and I'm sure I'll regret posting it after I've done so, but...:

Why is the consensus to leave PSM on? In every single driving/car guy circle I've ever interacted with the sentiment has always been that the electronic nannies provide the driver with a false sense of security and don't actually teach the driver to learn driving. Why is a Porsche any different? I get that the PSM is typically better than your std run-of-the-mill stability mgmt found on other cars, but that to me makes little difference.

Some of us (myself included) have only driven cars on track that did not have any stability mgmt, even ABS (let's exclude the one-off drives in other peoples' cars). Does this mean the recommendation is to sell our old-school ride and buy us a schmancy new P-car with all the electronic goodies?

Or this advice just appropriate for/applicable to novices and I completely misread the discussion?

[FrankyV]

Or this advice just appropriate for/applicable to novices and I completely misread the discussion?

Far more accomplished drivers than I said leave it on. My experience was that it did not intervene unless I really screwed up beyond my ability to recover, at least on the S with Sport Chrono Plus.

[Charlie Stylianos]

When I have my shop check it out, I'll ask them what they can do to keep the tires from moving around. The shaking was pretty bad at the higher speeds, to the point where I had to hold the wheel firmly.

Did it do this out of the box, or did it begin and worsen throughout the weekend? If the former I'd suspect suspension or initial bad balance, if the latter then probably balance going out from tire/rim slippage

......, I'd be inclined to turn it off but exercise due caution.

I agree. I'd try running with PSM off for a couple sessions to get an idea as to how much it's really aiding you......

[BMAN]

Going from a Cayman to a 911 I had a similar experience. The difference in balance of the 911 makes it more intuitive to read the chassis whereas the Cayman isn't as forthcoming with feel. Sound familar? ;)

Very few drivers believe you can learn and/or drive fast with PSM and most don't embrace it. But I've always argued that you can use PSM as a learning tool by examining when it intervenes and why; it does take patience. Early on I would be frustrated by PSM and wanted to turn it off. I knew I wan't driving that fast and the car had more to give but realized it was intervening in the same spots on the track. So I focused on those areas and, in most cases, realized I had to better sync my steering and throttle application to get through without intervention; not slow down. This sync'ing became 2nd nature and is comitted to muscle memory. I really believe that PSM allowed me to get faster and safer in a relatively short period of time.

PSM can also be a major crutch, so turning it off, at some point, is necessary if you really want to understand what's going on but I highly recommend understanding it's tendencies before trying it or this could happen. I was at this event and the driver was lapping for the first time with PSM off. Not a slow driver or a newbie, he was turning 2:05's at VIR, but he always ran with PSM on with this car. It's been posted here before but fast forward to 1:30 and watch until the end :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7g9zJ_96cs



Dr John's car has two layers of control and he typically runs with TC on and SC off. These days I do not run with PSM, TC or SC simply because I am too cool and can't stand the shame of it.

[spiffyjiff]

So, I really hesitate typing the following, and I'm sure I'll regret posting it after I've done so, but...:

Why is the consensus to leave PSM on? In every single driving/car guy circle I've ever interacted with the sentiment has always been that the electronic nannies provide the driver with a false sense of security and don't actually teach the driver to learn driving. Why is a Porsche any different? I get that the PSM is typically better than your std run-of-the-mill stability mgmt found on other cars, but that to me makes little difference.

Some of us (myself included) have only driven cars on track that did not have any stability mgmt, even ABS (let's exclude the one-off drives in other peoples' cars). Does this mean the recommendation is to sell our old-school ride and buy us a schmancy new P-car with all the electronic goodies?

Or this advice just appropriate for/applicable to novices and I completely misread the discussion?

i agree and there are others (club racers as well) who have chimed in on other threads that leaving PSM on is safe, yes, but definitely not the fastest way around the track. i.e. people with more experience than i, in cars with and without PSM.

the 991 might have a better brain but the 997 PSM def hinders in certain areas/turns. and especially considering that PSM in general is designed and programmed for OEM tires, OEM suspension/alignment, OEM brakes, etc, which many owners upgrade to aftermarket (track) specs.

and FWIW, i dont want to contradict anyone but one of the reliable sources mentioned drove my car at SP with me riding shotgun. the first thing he did was turn off PSM alluding that the car can be driven faster without it while still being perfectly safe, smooth and stable.

ALL that said, i think it's a great system for newbies/learning - it will save your inexperienced ass before you learn how to - but i think in the hands of someone more experienced, it will get in the way when using advanced techniques.

flame away.

[BMAN]

flame away.

Mrs B runs her Cayman with PSM on and she can almost hang with your 997 911! :p

[spiffyjiff]

Mrs B runs her Cayman with PSM on and she can almost hang with your 997 911! :p

ep ep ep, i didnt say whether i leave mine on or not. ;) that's cuz she learned from the best...not you. but by following me. :p

[ausgeflippt951]

watch until the end :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7g9zJ_96cs


Holy cow -- I was wondering what that "ka-thunk" was when he came to a stop. Was the corner worker OK? Looks like he may have ditched in time. I hadn't seen that before -- 'twas before my time as a Dorki.

[BMAN]

Was the corner worker OK? Looks like he may have ditched in time.

Yeah, flagger and driver were fine but it was a very close call. The flagger station was wiped out.

[roundel]

It's been posted here before but fast forward to 1:30 and watch until the end :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7g9zJ_96cs



Dr John's car has two layers of control and he typically runs with TC on and SC off. These days I do not run with PSM, TC or SC simply because I am too cool and can't stand the shame of it.

I'd argue that video could be an argument for turning the nannies off. The drover clearly applied 80+% throttle with a large steering input in. Then he totally jumped off the throttle when he started rotating. Looks to me like a driver that was allowed to get very fast without learning a lick of car control. How can one learn if nannies are saving your arse and fanning your ego?

I would add that the proper place to learn with the nannies off is at a slower place with less traction.

[rs911t]

Leave it on and learn to drive the car you have. Why turn if off and learn to drive a different car? Buy an old car if you feel the need to learn to drive without modern electronic integration.

[ausgeflippt951]

Leave it on and learn to drive the car you have. Why turn if off and learn to drive a different car? Buy an old car if you feel the need to learn to drive without modern electronic integration.

I wouldn't say it's a different car, but a much more "pure" representation of what that car is.

It's also worth noting that P-car owners are spoiled: the nannies are among the best (if not THE best) ever created in a production car. They're sophisticated, multi-faceted, and largely consistent. Most cars out there can't boast such advanced nanny technology, especially w.r.t. consistency.


And of course I'm saying this to the guy who tracks an old, no-such-thing-as-nannies 911. :cool:

[rs911t]

but a much more "pure" representation of what that car is.


That could only be true if the electronics were an add-on to Porsche's pure mechanical engineering. I doubt that's the case. The electronic "nannies" are part of the new car's soul.

[ausgeflippt951]

Very valid point -- a more severe examples is the GT-R.

With the Cayman/Boxster and 996/7 911 though, the nannies are on the whole more of an "add-on". To be honest, I'm not sure about the new 911 though.

And at the core of every car is still just some springs, dampers, tires, brakes, and some linkages to connect everything together.


Anyway I'm tired of this conversation. Don't think we'll ever get anywhere on this, even if we wanted to. And for me it's irrelevant since I don't expect I'll be buying a new P-car anytime soon. :)

[rs911t]

it's irrelevant since I don't expect I'll be buying a new P-car anytime soon. :)
With you there. I'm perpetually stuck in 1972 :)

[Ryan]

PSM is for pu$$ies and the slow way around the track. Instructors like Dr. J and Levitas will tell newbies to leave it on, so they dont have to call a wrecker at the end of the day to pick up their students car. Dr. J leaves his on in his GT2 with larger turbos because it helps him lay down the power easier. Non turbo Carerras dont have the torque to need it on during corner exit. I've forgotten to turn it off in th RS and man is it slow with it. It intervines in two ways. For the Rookie it catches their mistakes. For the experienced driver it does not allow good corner exit. For example, T1 in Both SP and VIR you probably lose at least 1/2 second alone, as you take those corner chasing your tail...with PSM on, it applies the brakes so you can't do that.


But I've always argued that you can use PSM as a learning tool by examining when it intervenes and why; it does take patience. Early on I would be frustrated by PSM and wanted to turn it off. I knew I wan't driving that fast and the car had more to give but realized it was intervening in the same spots on the track. So I focused on those areas and, in most cases, realized I had to better sync my steering and throttle application to get through without intervention; not slow down.

Exactly. As stated above, saves the rookie:shock:

[Vicegrip]

That could only be true if the electronics were an add-on to Porsche's pure mechanical engineering. I doubt that's the case. The electronic "nannies" are part of the new car's soul.Bingo

Very valid point -- a more severe examples is the GT-R.

With the Cayman/Boxster and 996/7 911 though, the nannies are on the whole more of an "add-on". To be honest, I'm not sure about the new 911 though.

And at the core of every car is still just some springs, dampers, tires, brakes, and some linkages to connect everything together.


Anyway I'm tired of this conversation. Don't think we'll ever get anywhere on this, even if we wanted to. And for me it's irrelevant since I don't expect I'll be buying a new P-car anytime soon. :)Not more severe, IMO the R is simply a better example. The R is thinking faster and has better more refined inputs and system maanagment than the Porsche systems. Porsche will catch up.

[CanAm]

PSM is for pu$$ies and the slow way around the track. Instructors like Dr. J and Levitas will tell newbies to leave it on, so they dont have to call a wrecker at the end of the day to pick up their students car. Dr. J leaves his on in his GT2 with larger turbos because it helps him lay down the power easier. Non turbo Carerras dont have the torque to need it on during corner exit. I've forgotten to turn it off in th RS and man is it slow with it. It intervines in two ways. For the Rookie it catches their mistakes. For the experienced driver it does not allow good corner exit. For example, T1 in Both SP and VIR you probably lose at least 1/2 second alone, as you take those corner chasing your tail...with PSM on, it applies the brakes so you can't do that.

This is what I found at VIR. I was repeatedly bumping against PSM through most of T1/2. I could feel a vibration suggesting that brakes were intermittently being applied, and it also seemed to be subtly cutting power. Net effect was that I seemed to come out of the turn slower. Had an instructor in the car and he didn't notice PSM coming on, which suggests that many drivers may not realize that it's on either (no flashing lights in this situation) - not good.

Maybe also worth noting that when I would lift to rotate the car to enter the lower esses, the car rotated fairly easily and far with PSM on, and I didn't feel any intervention, so maybe it's more restrictive with power oversteer as compared to lift oversteer.

The other situation where PSM should kick in is major plowing, but I just about never find myself in that situation. If I really need to turn, I lift, and if that's not enough then I just put two off (don't panic, only 3 times so far in 52 days). I may try deliberately plowing with PSM on at an autocross, to see what it feels like.

[FTS]

First time I got into the 911 after the Cayman, which I never turned off PSM except once, I was surprised how intrusive the SC on the 911 was. Even at the exit of T17 of VIR on the straight the darn thing was flashing like crazy. IMHO the only way to drive the latest 911 is with SC off TC on.

[spiffyjiff]

First time I got into the 911 after the Cayman, which I never turned off PSM except once, I was surprised how intrusive the SC on the 911 was. Even at the exit of T17 of VIR on the straight the darn thing was flashing like crazy. IMHO the only way to drive the latest 911 is with SC off TC on.

and for us GT idiots in the crowd...TC prevents wheel spin during acceleration and SC prevents your ass-end from pointing the wrong way? (ok, i know those are generalizations but is that the basic function of each or do i have that completely wrong??)

[vranko]

I've only had two obvious PSM interventions (non-Ice Pedal) at VIR (yea probably not driving hard enough :roll:) and they were unexpected. I got some throttle lift going up the esses (around T8) and after the roller coaster between T15-16. Yaw sensor must have thought something "unusual" was going on. I didn't feel out of control and at both of those points I wasn't changing steering or throttle inputs. Neither location I would actually choose to lift :shock:. but I assume if the PSM lifted it would fix the results also!

FWIW. My last Ice Pedal encounter was at VIR. Lost the brakes at the end of the back strait, went strait over the hill on the right (2 wheels on the grass) and was able to get the car back under control before going off track at the start of Roller Coaster. :shock:

[CanAm]

I've only had two obvious PSM interventions (non-Ice Pedal) at VIR (yea probably not driving hard enough :roll:) and they were unexpected. I got some throttle lift going up the esses (around T8) and after the roller coaster between T15-16. Yaw sensor must have thought something "unusual" was going on. I didn't feel out of control and at both of those points I wasn't changing steering or throttle inputs. Neither location I would actually choose to lift :shock:. but I assume if the PSM lifted it would fix the results also!

FWIW. My last Ice Pedal encounter was at VIR. Lost the brakes at the end of the back strait, went strait over the hill on the right (2 wheels on the grass) and was able to get the car back under control before going off track at the start of Roller Coaster. :shock:

Wow, that's a scary car you've got there! Ice pedal, unwanted lifting in the wrong place ... :shock: Maybe the 3D character of VIR confuses the PSM? I don't recall any whacky PSM intervention with the Cayman R when I was last at VIR, but maybe the calibration is different in the R, and I'm pretty sure I was several seconds slower in the R vs the 997.

[CanAm]

First time I got into the 911 after the Cayman, which I never turned off PSM except once, I was surprised how intrusive the SC on the 911 was. Even at the exit of T17 of VIR on the straight the darn thing was flashing like crazy. IMHO the only way to drive the latest 911 is with SC off TC on.

I didn't notice any flashing with the 997, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, and I never let it get quite that loose. And of course you have a GT3 vs my lowly S.

I've had the Cayman light flash a few times, typically when it was way loose, usually on wet track or fluids, and once when the tires were shot and the breakaway caught me off guard.

[FTS]

and for us GT idiots in the crowd...TC prevents wheel spin during acceleration and SC prevents your ass-end from pointing the wrong way? (ok, i know those are generalizations but is that the basic function of each or do i have that completely wrong??)
Basically yes, Chris.

[Dr K]

Maybe also worth noting that when I would lift to rotate the car to enter the lower esses, the car rotated fairly easily and far with PSM on, and I didn't feel any intervention, so maybe it's more restrictive with power oversteer as compared to lift oversteer.

What??!! Lift to rotate into the esses? Why and where? There's plenty of track there to enter fast and turn. Are you talking about the right-hander entering the snake? You're giving away a lot if you slow down into what is essentially a straight after that first turn. Is there something so different abou tthose newer cars?

[CanAm]

What??!! Lift to rotate into the esses? Why and where? There's plenty of track there to enter fast and turn. Are you talking about the right-hander entering the snake? You're giving away a lot if you slow down into what is essentially a straight after that first turn. Is there something so different abou tthose newer cars?

Yes, the snake (lower esses), not the climbing esses. With this car/tires, I have to lift to rotate it into the snake, then flat out to the climbing esses, possibly a brush of the brakes to enter the climbing esses, typically at about 120. Cool thing about this Chin event was that I was able to give/take passes pretty much everywhere on the track, including several times into and in the climbing esses. This group played together well! Another thing I did differently this time (as advised by a senior instructor) was to use the curbs a lot more, which helped quite a bit.

[FTS]

Is there something so different abou tthose newer cars?

Acceleration and speed :) you are able to gain enough speed in very short distances that you need a momentary lift to tuck the nose in sometimes. You cannot go WOT at all times with 380+hp on tap, I know it is hard to imagine that for you :p

[CanAm]

380+hp on tap

I think the 997.1S is 'only' 355 hp, but it's enough (for now ;)), and it certainly feels more muscular than the Cayman R. Mid-range torque is where I notice the difference the most. New 991 GT3 is 475 hp! :shock:

[HoodPin]

FWIW, Mike Levitas mentioned during the instructor seminar that Porsche spends a lot of time, money and testing to develop its cars. And he seemed to indicate the PASM was designed to work with the car to its max potential. If you were driving in such a way to "activate" the nanny, it meant you weren't driving as correctly as you could. He mentioned that the quickest lap times were achieved with very little intervention by PASM. IIRC, he even alluded that pro teams will use the system to give them clues, when it intervenes, as to opportunities of possible improvement.

However, he also said that the system is designed to work best with the specs built into the car. As soon you make changes to the suspension, etc., then PASM may no longer be in sync with the car. Proper development of upgrades includes making sure the "nannie systems" are included in the formula. Porsche's "factory" racers take this into consideration.

[CanAm]

FWIW, Mike Levitas mentioned during the instructor seminar that Porsche spends a lot of time, money and testing to develop its cars. And he seemed to indicate the PASM was designed to work with the car to its max potential. If you were driving in such a way to "activate" the nanny, it meant you weren't driving as correctly as you could. He mentioned that the quickest lap times were achieved with very little intervention by PASM. IIRC, he even alluded that pro teams will use the system to give them clues, when it intervenes, as to opportunities of possible improvement.

However, he also said that the system is designed to work best with the specs built into the car. As soon you make changes to the suspension, etc., then PASM may no longer be in sync with the car. Proper development of upgrades includes making sure the "nannie systems" are included in the formula. Porsche's "factory" racers take this into consideration.

I think you mean PSM (stability control)? I dunno, Ryan says it's slower with PSM on, and he's tried it both ways. Seems like a lot of other top drivers are saying the same thing. Based on my limited experience with it in the 997, I tend to believe them.

FWIW, I had an instructor in the car and he wanted me to demonstrate use of most of the car's capabilities. I tried, and was pretty sure that it was triggering PSM a lot in the turns that I mentioned. The instructor didn't notice it kicking in, and felt that I was at about 85%. Session after that I was alone and dialed it up further to go for what should be 90% plus, and that's when I got the 'PSM Failure' light; I'm suspecting that I overloaded the PSM system. So it seems that either the 85% estimate was too low or the PSM threshold was holding the car back; or my driving was just really sloppy, but the instructor commented on how smooth I was, so I doubt that was the case.

I'm confused about what to do about this PSM thing. Driving alone, I could spend some time with it off so that I can build confidence that I can drive the car without help. Or I could also use it as a training tool and try to drive as fast as possible without triggering it. With a passenger, I'd be inclined to leave it on for safety, and there's no reason to be going for that extra amount that PSM may force to be left on the table (except in the situation where the instructor is asking to not leave much on the table). On the road, I see no reason to turn PSM off.

Addendum: Another big question is what to tell students to do with stability control. Require that they leave it on until you build confidence in them during the event? Leave it on until they have a enough overall track days and skill, so maybe always on for Green drivers? Let them make the choice and don't try to sway them either way? Make the intervention threshold a key factor in the decision (and possibly use an intermediate threshold, if available)? Encourage them to turn it off so that they really learn to drive? Base it on whether they just want to have fun (leave it on) versus develop skill (possibly turn it off)? Lowest liability seems to be encourage them to leave it on, but give them the choice. Highest safety (for instructor too) seems to be to require that it be left on. But it's not clear, at least to me, that always leaving it on is best for learning.

[BMAN]

I got some throttle lift going up the esses (around T8)

:shock: It sounds like you've got a good PSM balance in your car. If this only happened once, it's good indication that the lift was too abrupt combined with steering input. As you know, you cannot afford to lose the car in T8 at VIR, a mistake there is very costly.

I do believe that PSM can be inconsistent from car to car; likely due to setup differences but could be gremlins too. Dr John and I shared a couple of session at VIR driving very similar GT2's. He was not comfortable with me having TC off (traction control) and I explained that mine didn't work correctly and was over active. Then he drove my car with TC on and turned it off after a half lap because it was coming on too often. His car, on the other hand, was perfect with TC on.

When PSM is working properly you can drive relatively fast and learn a lot. However, it would be best to know the difference between risky driver inputs vs. over active PSM before giving up on it.

[Trak Ratt]

... Addendum: Another big question is what to tell students to do with stability control. Require that they leave it on until you build confidence in them during the event? Leave it on until they have a enough overall track days and skill, so maybe always on for Green drivers? Let them make the choice and don't try to sway them either way? Make the intervention threshold a key factor in the decision (and possibly use an intermediate threshold, if available)? Encourage them to turn it off so that they really learn to drive? Base it on whether they just want to have fun (leave it on) versus develop skill (possibly turn it off)? Lowest liability seems to be encourage them to leave it on, but give them the choice. Highest safety (for instructor too) seems to be to require that it be left on. But it's not clear, at least to me, that always leaving it on is best for learning.
IMO any instructor at the DE level that tells or even encourages his stu to shut these off is being foolish and leaving themselves open to litigation.

[vranko]

:shock: It sounds like you've got a good PSM balance in your car. If this only happened once, it's good indication that the lift was too abrupt combined with steering input. As you know, you cannot afford to lose the car in T8 at VIR, a mistake there is very costly.


I didn't lift. I was full on throttle. The ECU/PSM lifted :bang::bang: It wasn't an abrupt lift thought (got to give the computers credit) so it didn't noticeably destabilize the car.

[CanAm]

IMO any instructor at the DE level that tells or even encourages his stu to shut these off is being foolish and leaving themselves open to litigation.

I agree. But what if the student asks for your advice on whether to turn it off? Or if you see the student turn it off and have concerns about their skill, would you recommend or require that they turn it back on? There's even the scenario Vranko describes, where the stability control could misbehave and contribute to an incident. I feel like we're in murky waters here.

[BMAN]

I didn't lift. I was full on throttle. The ECU/PSM lifted :bang::bang: It wasn't an abrupt lift thought (got to give the computers credit) so it didn't noticeably destabilize the car.

Dayum....u gotz some serious HAM HANDS :p

[Chakka]

I agree. But what if the student asks for your advice on whether to turn it off? Or if you see the student turn it off and have concerns about their skill, would you recommend or require that they turn it back on? There's even the scenario Vranko describes, where the stability control could misbehave and contribute to an incident. I feel like we're in murky waters here.

As instructors we aren't paid(are we??) With a proper explanation to the student as to you wanting to see smoothness, good inputs, etc.... I would make them keep it on. Unlike Ryan who has hundreds of track days in a car he knows very well, an instructed student has a tendancy to want to "show" you something. I don't need to be shown what it's like to have them overdrive and crash.
You learn quickly with a student what they can and can't handle or do. They are there to learn.
Lastly, you can always talk to the Chief Instructor, explain the difficulty with the student and either have them talk to them or change students. Wouldn't be the first time. You are trusting them as a passenger. They need to earn that trust and telling me this is how they usually drive doesn't cut it.

[Trak Ratt]

I agree. But what if the student asks for your advice on whether to turn it off? Or if you see the student turn it off and have concerns about their skill, would you recommend or require that they turn it back on? There's even the scenario Vranko describes, where the stability control could misbehave and contribute to an incident. I feel like we're in murky waters here.
I doubt many in blue and green can cause that to happen! And if they do then having it turned off would have seen them in the wall way before it mattered. Water seems pretty clear for green and blue! Maybe murky in white but only cause some ones taken a dump...

Off on skid pad ok as long as they had it on long enough to recognize when it cuts in and what it's trying to do.

[roundel]

Off on skid pad ok as long as they had it on long enough to recognize when it cuts in and what it's trying to do.

Skidpad time is usually around 3-4 minutes per student per session. Ain't nobody got time to waste evaluating the inputs made by the nannies. We attempt to teach the inputs students make and the results. Frequently the nannies are trying to counter whatever we are trying to do. Thankfully, Porsche and BMW usually allow the systems to be completely turned off.

[Trak Ratt]

Skidpad time is usually around 3-4 minutes per student per session. Ain't nobody got time to waste evaluating the inputs made by the nannies. We attempt to teach the inputs students make and the results. Frequently the nannies are trying to counter whatever we are trying to do. Thankfully, Porsche and BMW usually allow the systems to be completely turned off.That's the ones you run. This thread, like so many other's of the OP is so all over the place it's hard to make that assumption.

[CanAm]

I'd actually suggest trying the skidpad with stability control both off and on, to get an idea of when and how much it intervenes in various oversteer and understeer situations, and how that differs if there's more than one 'on' setting.

With the Cayman and a couple of other cars, I've generally found that stability control is so effective that using it greatly inhibits learning car control. And all of the BMW skidpad instructors I've talked with agreed that stability control should primarily be off at the skidpad, though I suppose that involves liability issues too :roll:.

[Chakka]

I'd actually suggest trying the skidpad with stability control both off and on, to get an idea of when and how much it intervenes in various oversteer and understeer situations, and how that differs if there's more than one 'on' setting.

With the Cayman and a couple of other cars, I've generally found that stability control is so effective that using it greatly inhibits learning car control. And all of the BMW skidpad instructors I've talked with agreed that stability control should primarily be off at the skidpad, though I suppose that involves liability issues too :roll:.

I think you're right that it helps to have a sense of it on a skid pad, but at track speed going through T9 or T10 it's a whole different animal. Don't get lulled into thinking you understand it because of a wet skidpad. Time, patience and proceed with caution...

[CanAm]

I think you're right that it helps to have a sense of it on a skid pad, but at track speed going through T9 or T10 it's a whole different animal. Don't get lulled into thinking you understand it because of a wet skidpad. Time, patience and proceed with caution...

Agreed that the skidpad behavior doesn't translate perfectly to the track, but I think there's enough similarity in terms of yaw angle, etc. for it to be helpful. Might depend on the car though.

[roundel]

at track speed going through T9 or T10 it's a whole different animal.

I disagree. The same physics apply. All that is different is the speed stuff happens. The corners you listed seem to bite most because of a failure to recognize under-steer which leads to over-steer as the correction for under-steer is over applied too late. The lessons of the skidpad can be carried right to a wet track so that the difference is really only speed. During drying sessions you can carry over everything each lap even though the speeds increase each time through until it is fully dry. How could it be otherwise?

[ausgeflippt951]

Curious: does anyone do skidpad with the nannies ON? Doesn't seem to make one iota of sense to me. I am passed discussing the nannies on track, especially for novices: makes sense to keep 'em on. But with skidpad time, the name of the game is to discover the limits of the car in a safe and predictable environment. It's quite literally impossible to do this with the nannies on, no?

[roundel]

Curious: does anyone do skidpad with the nannies ON? Doesn't seem to make one iota of sense to me. I am passed discussing the nannies on track, especially for novices: makes sense to keep 'em on. But with skidpad time, the name of the game is to discover the limits of the car in a safe and predictable environment. It's quite literally impossible to do this with the nannies on, no?

You can learn about how the nannies apply themselves. Some cut throttle, some apply brakes, some do both. Some are so subtle it is hard to recognize why inputs are not creating intended results. So there is value in trying the nannies on the pad, but it is not the primary purpose.

[FTS]

Curious: does anyone do skidpad with the nannies ON?
With them on, rear brake pads would only last 4 mins :p

[BlackTalon]

WRT what to tell students about leaving on/ turning off nannie systems:

1. Ask the Chief Instructor for whichever club you happen to be driving with if their policy is "keep it on" or "use your descretion"

2. If "keep it on", tell student to keep it on

3. If "use your descretion", tell student to keep it on

Please don't think you are such a talented instructor that you can teach a Green group student the subtleties of stability control systems vs going naked when they don't even know how to properly brake or turn yet, yet alone know where all the manned flagging tubs are located.

Save the 'on' vs 'off' for students who are at the White (or equiv) level and have shown proficiency in driving the line, braking, turning, passing, vision and understanding the basic dynamics at play. Heck, you youself are still trying to figure out the on vs off now that you are in White -- why not fully work through it yourself before thinking about taking it up with students?

[}{arlequin]

^x1000

[CanAm]

WRT what to tell students about leaving on/ turning off nannie systems:

1. Ask the Chief Instructor for whichever club you happen to be driving with if their policy is "keep it on" or "use your descretion"

2. If "keep it on", tell student to keep it on

3. If "use your descretion", tell student to keep it on

Please don't think you are such a talented instructor that you can teach a Green group student the subtleties of stability control systems vs going naked when they don't even know how to properly brake or turn yet, yet alone know where all the manned flagging tubs are located.

Save the 'on' vs 'off' for students who are at the White (or equiv) level and have shown proficiency in driving the line, braking, turning, passing, vision and understanding the basic dynamics at play. Heck, you youself are still trying to figure out the on vs off now that you are in White -- why not fully work through it yourself before thinking about taking it up with students?

I generally agree with this conservative approach, but there may still be issues with students familiar with driving with stability control off (and of course many older cars don't have it), insisting on doing it (when the organization/CI doesn't have an official policy on it), or driving cars with a low threshold to trigger it (which could promote unsafe driving habits, as in the crash video).

With Green, IMO it's a no-brainer to have students leave it on; they shouldn't be pushing enough to trigger it. With upper Blue, I'm not so sure. I'm not instructing White-level drivers, nor do I feel qualified to do it (though I did move to Red at this recent Chin event, so my PCAP White doesn't tell the whole story).

Is PCAP setting an official policy on stability control?

[Chakka]

I disagree. The same physics apply. All that is different is the speed stuff happens. The corners you listed seem to bite most because of a failure to recognize under-steer which leads to over-steer as the correction for under-steer is over applied too late. The lessons of the skidpad can be carried right to a wet track so that the difference is really only speed. During drying sessions you can carry over everything each lap even though the speeds increase each time through until it is fully dry. How could it be otherwise?

I agree with you when going from skid pad to wet track, that would be ideal. My only point was going from slow wet skid pad to fast dry track. As you said, the recognition has to be so much quicker.

[BlackTalon]

I generally agree with this conservative approach, but there may still be issues with students familiar with driving with stability control off (and of course many older cars don't have it), insisting on doing it (when the organization/CI doesn't have an official policy on it), or driving cars with a low threshold to trigger it (which could promote unsafe driving habits, as in the crash video).

With Green, IMO it's a no-brainer to have students leave it on; they shouldn't be pushing enough to trigger it. With upper Blue, I'm not so sure. I'm not instructing White-level drivers, nor do I feel qualified to do it (though I did move to Red at this recent Chin event, so my PCAP White doesn't tell the whole story).

Is PCAP setting an official policy on stability control?So how would you judge whether a car has a low threshold or the driver is just being too rough if it is a car/ make you are not familiar with? if we limit to some of the newer porsche models it is a little easier to tackle the issue, but what about the various BMWs, Audis, Hondas, Corvettes, etc. that may be showing up at a driving event?

If the student seems to have a good handle on things and would be at PCAP White Group level, then I would talk with them about experimenting with turning off the controls. But otherwise, I would make sure they are learning and becoming proficient at all the basics before throwing in what is essentially a new chassis.

~50 track days tells the story more then knowing what level you run at with which group. It means you are probably proficient in all the basics now, and playing more with some advanced techniques. It also means you likely have not become proficient enough at them yet to try teachng to someone who may or may not be ready -- event though they insist that they are.

But at the end of the day it comes down to this: As the instructor you are in 'control' of the car, but if you lose that control through actions of the student that happen too quickly for you to respond to you are now exposed to some serious risk.

I know you are big on risk management, so apply that to your thinking here.

[CanAm]

^ Lots of valid points, as usual. :)

Since I'm instructing Green/Blue drivers only, I'm inclined to ask that stability control be left on, unless there's a compelling reason to allow it to be turned off.

White-level drivers are a different story and I won't be attempting to instruct them any time soon because I'm not qualified (I did actually instruct one, but it was a case where the driver was new to the track, so we focused more on basics like the line, rather anything remotely advanced).

[Vicegrip]

I find it interesting that you think a Green student is somehow easer to teach than a white student. What makes you think this?

[roundel]

I agree with you when going from skid pad to wet track, that would be ideal. My only point was going from slow wet skid pad to fast dry track. As you said, the recognition has to be so much quicker.

Absolutely. In the vast majority of students that I have witnessed, the learning of mechanics like proper shifting, the line, and braking come much faster than car control develops. The grail of smoothness is worshipped, but at the moment when a slide begins, those smooth hands need to transform to very fast hands. Of course the best solution is to anticipate the impending crossing of the friction circle and ask less of the car by opening the wheel or breathing off the throttle.

Man I am ready for the track. Or the snow storm Saturn. :twisted:

[Vicegrip]

Accurate hands.

Fast can = overcompensation which is very common. Accurate compensation is often simply the same as the amount of input that was too much in the first place.

[CanAm]

I find it interesting that you think a Green student is somehow easer to teach than a white student. What makes you think this?

I expect it to be 'easier' in the passenger seat with a White driver. I'm just saying that a White driver seeking input is likely much better off with someone with a lot more experience than me.

[tdatk]

Absolutely. In the vast majority of students that I have witnessed, the learning of mechanics like proper shifting, the line, and braking come much faster than car control develops. The grail of smoothness is worshipped, but at the moment when a slide begins, those smooth hands need to transform to very fast hands. Of course the best solution is to anticipate the impending crossing of the friction circle and ask less of the car by opening the wheel or breathing off the throttle.

Man I am ready for the track. Or the snow storm Saturn. :twisted:

Excuse the self promotion, near the end or the short video, watch the hands.;)

http://youtu.be/VqhHR7NURVg

[bretster]

But I'm pretty sure I triggered it a lot through T1/2...


Does your car have a limited slip diff?
The 997 that is.

[CanAm]

Does your car have a limited slip diff?
The 997 that is.

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't. I may add the Guard at some point, but I'm thinking that I'll drive the car without it for a while before adding it, to see what difference it makes. I also heard that the same Guard unit can be used in both the Cayman and the 997, so another possibility is to put it in the Cayman first, then move it to the 997 if/when we sell the Cayman.

[Ryan]

LS was not available for the 997.1s Guards can be used, but you have to cut the bearings down yourself because the guy who bought Guard cannot do it in a timely fashion, as his machinist retired also. It's about $5k

[roundel]

Excuse the self promotion, near the end or the short video, watch the hands.;)

http://youtu.be/VqhHR7NURVg

I looked for your hands. No dice. Too fast.

[CanAm]

^ I was once on the skidpad with the SCCA CI, and his general advice was 'fast hands initially, then slower hands'.

[Vicegrip]

What does that mean? What would you tell a student?

[CanAm]

What does that mean? What would you tell a student?

About the hands? The general advice I've given so far is that developing car control is key (among other things) to driving safely at speed on the track, and the skidpad is the best place to develop it safely, so spend as much time at the skidpad as possible (kudos to BMW, PCAP, and BSR for making this part of their programs). Regarding fast/slow hands, I think the general answer is 'it depends', along the lines of what you said. But I suspect (I'm not a skidpad instructor) that most people have too little/too slow reaction of the hands - at least that was the case for me, and I had to really work on that.

My first skidpad experience was actually at the AMG Driving Academy at Lime Rock (all instructors were pro racers :cool:), and I was shocked at how fast the hands need to be - it was very counterintuitive for me. I also discovered how effective stability control systems can be, because it was almost impossible to spin the AMG cars with it on. They were also very strict about stability control staying on while on the track - all students were novices and we were driving cars costing up to $200K at speeds hitting 130+. :shock: I got that day 'free' when I got an AMG, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered doing a track event because it seemed like an 'immature' and pointless activity. Look at what ensued from that! :lol:

[Vicegrip]

This is quite a lot to say between corners regarding overcorrection.

[ausgeflippt951]

Eh, I think everyone is just excited to start DE'ing.

The good thing about this discussion is that it emphasizes just how nuanced the art -- and science -- of driving a car truly can be. As with any science, the closer to an "expert" one becomes, the more times the response will be "it depends" or "it varies" in response to "the best way to handle _____".

Thinking back to graduate school, I had a professor who would include the following true/false questions on every test he gave. And you know, people still got them wrong...

1) It Depends.
_____T F
2) It Varies.
_____T F



Now he wasn't just being facetious or insipid. He was trying to illustrate that as one encounters more and more knowledge, the "best solution" is always a complex function of the conditions, which are always changing from one event to the next.

It's easy to identify definitive and concrete "Rules" when speaking with a true novice. E.g., "Don't shift gears mid-corner" or "Don't apply gas and brake at the same time" or "Make sure to start turning in AFTER you have finished applying the brakes".



What separates the true experts from the posers are those who are able to identify how to manipulate/reconstruct those foundational rules to suit his/her purpose, without endangering the lives of those around him/her.

Many a racer will shift mid-corner, and virtually every driver of a turbo car, ever, has applied the gas and brake simultaneously. Let's not even get started on talking about trail braking... :)

[CanAm]

^ Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition. I think this model is pretty good. I also highly recommend the book 'Surpassing Ourselves: An Inquiry into the the Nature and Implications of Expertise'; they give some good motorsports examples, and one of their key findings is that development of expertise requires continually challenging yourself, working 'at the edge of your competence' (which means you should neither be bored nor overwhelmed).

[ausgeflippt951]

Dreyfus Model -- that's what I couldn't remember. Couldn't quite recall the name, thanks. Been a while since I've heard it referenced by name.

[Trak Ratt]

This is quite a lot to say between corners regarding overcorrection. Amen brother! the reality of instructing is often the realization of all you can't say rather than what you did say!

[1ED1]

I do not understand why we want to make driving so hard. Most people drive every day and some while doing many other things. I see old people and yes there are a lot of people older than me that can still drive. They stop on a line at stoplights and make turns side by side 3 or 4 feet apart with out hitting each other,some times faster than turn 5.
We drive Summit 30 to 50 laps a day. It's only as hard as you make it. You have to have a mind set when you go on track that is relaxed control. Take a few deep breaths before you go on track and after a few laps relax.
If this does not work for you disregard my post.

[APKhaos]

Inexperienced instructors generally talk too much. Much too much.
For the early stage student, a good instructor will assess.and triage then focus on the one or two most valuable lessons the student needs to learn.
For more.experiemced students its.the same, but the diagnostic choice may be to correct a suspect technique or to introduce a new technique.
In both cases:
- the student needs to understand the one or two things that we are working on this session
- the instructor needs to frame the lesson so that success or substantial progress is seen by the student
- the session should be fun for the student and pitched at his/her level

Instructors.who never shut up or insist on impressing the student with their boundless.experience and theoretical knowledge are both ineffective and more.common than you might expect.

[Vicegrip]

^ Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition. I think this model is pretty good. I also highly recommend the book 'Surpassing Ourselves: An Inquiry into the the Nature and Implications of Expertise'; they give some good motorsports examples, and one of their key findings is that development of expertise requires continually challenging yourself, working 'at the edge of your competence' (which means you should neither be bored nor overwhelmed).

Ok, hand him/her a book. ;)

[BMAN]

Instructors.who never shut up or insist on impressing the student with their boundless.experience and theoretical knowledge are both ineffective and more.common than you might expect.

That hits a little too close to home:(

Effective and timely right seat communication can be a frustrating and ponderous at times. Most weekends are easy but once you've experienced incompatible communication it bothers you for awhile. I am hoping that with more seat time I'll become more proficient in identifing and adapting to my own ineffective communication.

[APKhaos]

That hits a little too close to home:(
LOL......I doubt it.
It takes a while to find a good level of encouragement/correction/communication.
Riding with really good instructors helps a lot. Very early in my instructing days Betty Church sat right seat with me at VIR. She said, "I'll just watch for a while." Three laps later she said, "OK, lets try this" and introduced left foot braking. I gained nearly two seconds a lap that weekend. That "shut up and watch, diagnose, recommend/refine" has been my gold standard ever since.

[ausgeflippt951]

That hits a little too close to home:(

Effective and timely right seat communication can be a frustrating and ponderous at times. Most weekends are easy but once you've experienced incompatible communication it bothers you for awhile. I am hoping that with more seat time I'll become more proficient in identifing and adapting to my own ineffective communication.

You worked well for me, Brian-san.

[ausgeflippt951]

LOL......I doubt it.
It takes a while to find a good level of encouragement/correction/communication.
Riding with really good instructors helps a lot. Very early in my instructing days Betty Church sat right seat with me at VIR. She said, "I'll just watch for a while." Three laps later she said, "OK, lets try this" and introduced left foot braking. I gained nearly two seconds a lap that weekend. That "shut up and watch, diagnose, recommend/refine" has been my gold standard ever since.

I really appreciate this kind of strategy. Especially when less experienced, it's easy to psyche yourself out as a student, trying not to make a mistake. Assuming the instructor does not see something diabolical in the student's behavior, it really helps to let the student cruise around for a while and get comfortable on-track before the instructor comes in with his/her thoughts.

[BlackTalon]

I really appreciate this kind of strategy. Especially when less experienced, it's easy to psyche yourself out as a student, trying not to make a mistake. Assuming the instructor does not see something diabolical in the student's behavior, it really helps to let the student cruise around for a while and get comfortable on-track before the instructor comes in with his/her thoughts.This approach works well for students who have a least a few weekends under their belts. But with zero to 2-3 weekends, you will likely need to spend time talking them around the track, giving them pointers/ guidance ahead of a braking zone, turn, etc.

[ausgeflippt951]

Agreed. Seems to me a super-novice will be either reckless or much too slow. Either way, coaching is required sooner rather than later.

[CanAm]

Inexperienced instructors generally talk too much. Much too much.
For the early stage student, a good instructor will assess.and triage then focus on the one or two most valuable lessons the student needs to learn.
For more.experiemced students its.the same, but the diagnostic choice may be to correct a suspect technique or to introduce a new technique.
In both cases:
- the student needs to understand the one or two things that we are working on this session
- the instructor needs to frame the lesson so that success or substantial progress is seen by the student
- the session should be fun for the student and pitched at his/her level

Instructors.who never shut up or insist on impressing the student with their boundless.experience and theoretical knowledge are both ineffective and more.common than you might expect.

LOL......I doubt it.
It takes a while to find a good level of encouragement/correction/communication.
Riding with really good instructors helps a lot. Very early in my instructing days Betty Church sat right seat with me at VIR. She said, "I'll just watch for a while." Three laps later she said, "OK, lets try this" and introduced left foot braking. I gained nearly two seconds a lap that weekend. That "shut up and watch, diagnose, recommend/refine" has been my gold standard ever since.

Based on advice I've gotten from several instructors, and my own experience being instructed, this is the model I'm trying to follow. Contrary to my internet presence, I'm not overly talkative when instructing. I think it helps that I've been instructed many times myself recently, so it's easy to relate to what the student's going through.

Out of about 20 instructors, I've only had one or two that talked too much. Tip to students whose instructor talks too much: say something like 'How about if I do a few laps with minimal instruction, so we can see how I do?' Works like a charm. :D


Ok, hand him/her a book. ;)

Funny thing is that I've found the yield from reading driving books to be relatively low relative to the time invested. Instructed seat time has a far higher yield. But I still read books anyway because every now and then I pick up an insight that really helps.


That hits a little too close to home:(

Effective and timely right seat communication can be a frustrating and ponderous at times. Most weekends are easy but once you've experienced incompatible communication it bothers you for awhile. I am hoping that with more seat time I'll become more proficient in identifing and adapting to my own ineffective communication.

BMAN does tend to be talkative, but at least half of what he says is worth listening to, and you can just pretend to listen to the rest of it. :lol: Seriously though, I advise everyone to request BMAN as an instructor, he helped me enormously. Plus, I want to overburden him. :p


I really appreciate this kind of strategy. Especially when less experienced, it's easy to psyche yourself out as a student, trying not to make a mistake.

I used to feel some pressure to not disappoint my instructors, but I gradually learned that all I can do is my best, and that is what it is. I've even had checkout instructors tell me they want me to impress them, and I've told them that I'm just going to drive the way I normally do, and you can be the judge of whether it's good enough. Takes the pressure off, and it's safer too.

[Cliff Claven]

i've taught students about watching for flags, passing etiquette, checking tire pressures, entering/exiting hot track, braking points, braking technique (including trailbraking), corner entry/exit, heel/toe, hitting the apex, looking down track and through the corners, thinking ahead, watching the gauges, shifting, double clutching, smoothness, weight transfer, reading the track, controlling the back end of a 911, watching out for boneheads, etc. essentially how to get around the track without being a threat to themselves or others so that they can work on and improve their technique.

but i've never had occassion to teach "fast hands - slow hands"
and i've never told a student to turn off the electronic aids

seems to me that learning about making corrections in a slide is best done on the skid pad rather than on track.

maybe i'm missing something....

[CanAm]

but i've never had occassion to teach "fast hands - slow hands"
and i've never told a student to turn off the electronic aids

seems to me that learning about making corrections in a slide is best done on the skid pad rather than on track.

maybe i'm missing something....

That's what I was suggesting, learn it on the skidpad. I believe PCAP is now requiring skidpad time for promotion, which IMO is great.

I've had the car loose on the track a few times and caught it, but never had an instructor try to tell me what to do in real time while it was happening. My aim in instructing is to try to prevent things from getting to that point in the first place, though the unexpected can still happen (fluids, mechanical problems, etc.).

[BlackTalon]

I officially request BMAN to be my instructor

[Ryan]

I officially request BMAN to be my instructor

x2. BMAN, can you teach me how to drove faster (oh nevermind, I forgot your fix is just to buy a faster car)?

[Vicegrip]

Can BMAN help me unwind my car?

[BMAN]

I officially request BMAN to be my instructor

x2. BMAN, can you teach me how to drove faster (oh nevermind, I forgot your fix is just to buy a faster car)?

FUDs! I hope you're both home elbow deep in dirty diapers on this snow/rain day.

Can BMAN help me unwind my car?

Not sure what that means but FU too! I hope you cashed that check already.

[BlackTalon]

FUDs! I hope you're both home elbow deep in dirty diapers on this snow/rain day.

Bah! Enjoy your 2 hour commute home :twisted: :lol:

[Ryan]

FUDs! I hope you're both home elbow deep in dirty diapers on this snow/rain day.

Haven't changed one yet.

[tdatk]

i've taught students about watching for flags, passing etiquette, checking tire pressures, entering/exiting hot track, braking points, braking technique (including trailbraking), corner entry/exit, heel/toe, hitting the apex, looking down track and through the corners, thinking ahead, watching the gauges, shifting, double clutching, smoothness, weight transfer, reading the track, controlling the back end of a 911, watching out for boneheads, etc. essentially how to get around the track without being a threat to themselves or others so that they can work on and improve their technique.

but i've never had occassion to teach "fast hands - slow hands"
and i've never told a student to turn off the electronic aids

seems to me that learning about making corrections in a slide is best done on the skid pad rather than on track.

maybe i'm missing something....
Better yet, go for a drive today/this evening, pick your weapon, I'll bet you can lean some fast hands!1!!11 :lol: I'll be poolside slammin back a few trying to figure out how to react with fast hands and slow hands at the same time thru a tankslapper....:lol::lol::lol: Maybe I'll put on some Clapton/Hendrix re-mix

[Dandelion]

but i've never had occassion to teach "fast hands - slow hands"

...or, Heaven forbid, "jazz hands".

ed

[vranko]

Haven't changed one yet.

Impressive. My secret was always appearing incompetent and untrustworthy with certin tasks when our son was young. Wife never needed much convincing :shock: You don't know how many time I've heard "what do you mean you didn't remember!".

[CanAm]

Another thought on stability control. If Green/Blue students always drive with it on, and then start driving with it off for the first time when in White without an instructor, that could make for trouble (eg, the video posted earlier in this thread). I'm not necessarily saying that any driver should be encouraged to turn it off, but there may be some value in allowing upper Blue drivers to turn it off so that they get that experience with an instructor present.

I'm in this boat myself, having gotten to White+ always driving with stability control on. Fortunately, I've spent a lot of time on the skidpad with stability control off, but I'm going to need to dial it back and gradually build back up when driving without stability control on the track. I understand the arguments for leaving it on but, for me, it's essential to be able to drive without it when desired. Otherwise, I'll never hear the end of it from the macho guys with older cars.

[Chakka]

Another thought on stability control. If Green/Blue students always drive with it on, and then start driving with it off for the first time when in White without an instructor, that could make for trouble (eg, the video posted earlier in this thread). I'm not necessarily saying that any driver should be encouraged to turn it off, but there may be some value in allowing upper Blue drivers to turn it off so that they get that experience with an instructor present.

In a perfect world, the student in white asks for an instructor to ride along at least once in a given weekend. It is always encouraged by Chief Instructor at the beginning of the events and on occasion they have had instructors jump in all the cars on the grid to ride with students in White.

Going from Blue to White is a big deal and I think the student needs to focus on driving without an instructor first. I remember how not having that "safety net" with you was a bit uneasy. Without someone correcting you, driving the proper line and making proper observations of others around for passing signals is a lot to take in.

If you are at the point of white "+" then you must be driving consistent lines, proper technique, etc... That's great and would be a great time to have an instructor with a similar type of car(or at least with similar aids) to help you with understanding what the car is doing and why it's aiding you. Most instructors are more than happy to help in any way, you just need to ask.

Should not be up to the instructor to teach you on track, in blue, how to drive without the aids on. If someone is in blue, they don't have that much track time and still need assistance in the fundamentals of driving.

[Cliff Claven]

Otherwise, I'll never hear the end of it from the macho guys with older cars.

not sure what to make of the macho reference, but stability control sure isn't the first thing that comes to mind when i consider the differences between an air-cooled torsion bar 911 and a 997. seems to me stability control is a nice safety net, not really about driving so much as protecting you; it's not at the same level as power, suspension, brakes, shifting, etc. i'm not sure it makes you more macho to run without safety device.

[CanAm]

In a perfect world, the student in white asks for an instructor to ride along at least once in a given weekend. It is always encouraged by Chief Instructor at the beginning of the events and on occasion they have had instructors jump in all the cars on the grid to ride with students in White.

Going from Blue to White is a big deal and I think the student needs to focus on driving without an instructor first. I remember how not having that "safety net" with you was a bit uneasy. Without someone correcting you, driving the proper line and making proper observations of others around for passing signals is a lot to take in.

If you are at the point of white "+" then you must be driving consistent lines, proper technique, etc... That's great and would be a great time to have an instructor with a similar type of car(or at least with similar aids) to help you with understanding what the car is doing and why it's aiding you. Most instructors are more than happy to help in any way, you just need to ask.

Should not be up to the instructor to teach you on track, in blue, how to drive without the aids on. If someone is in blue, they don't have that much track time and still need assistance in the fundamentals of driving.

I'm diligent about continuing to have instructors ride with me, regardless of which organization and run group I'm with, so I'm thinking about this more from the standpoint of what instructors should do. Going back to that video, it's scary to see that a driver can run 2:05 at VIR yet demonstrate such poor throttle/car control when stability control is off - a false sense of security/ability if I ever saw one.

Maybe the mandatory skidpad time (with stability control off) does partially solve this, though of course only some organizations even provide access to the skidpad.

And I think it does depend a lot on the threshold at which stability control intervenes for a particular car. If the threshold is high, by all means leave it on and have a safety net. If the threshold is low, IMO consideration should be given to turning it off, even in Blue (but not Green). Again, the skidpad is a good place to test where the thresholds are, and I suspect that many cars will have a threshold somewhere in the gray zone.

[Vicegrip]

What instructors should do regarding turning electronic systems off?
Teach car control in a safe environment. All this chitter chatter about buttons on or off is a red herring. The electronic aids do not directly inhibit learning unless the car has been messed with and/or the systems are not working right. Learning to drive the car inside the traction circle is what we are teaching in the first place. If your student is always hitting the "elec aid wall" you are not doing your job from the right seat. This is no different than teaching someone in a 356 not to torch the drum brakes in 3 laps or a 930 and boost management. Teach the methods needed for both the car and track.

We need to teach good skills and see that the student is not just hearing good information but doing it. Doing the same poor form over and over only ingrains the poor form. Ingrained poor form is the worst thing to have to unlearn. YMMV but I spend much of my right seat time working on things that are understood by but made hard for the student simply by him/her being human.

As skills increase and the students awareness opens up they become tuned to when the systems are active or not. The skid pad is a great place to expose the student to concepts and methods but it is not track speed with track level G forces or reaction rates. There is no excitement or fear facet of human reaction involved.

[VaSteve]

Well put Kurt.

It's March and March Madness kicks in here every time this year. This is but the lastest. Lots of bad, incorrect, or confusing information in here right before we start the HPDC event with plenty of new drivers. Let's let this one cool off a while and slip into the archives.

Plenty of similar discussions like this on Rennlist if you want to go there.