Street Tires for Track Use

[CanAm]

I may be moving to 'real' track tires next season (Hoosier R6s fit my wheels!), but am planning to stay with street tires for at least a couple more local track events in the next few weeks and possibly a couple events down south during the winter.

I'd like to compare notes regarding which street tires people have found to be best for track use. As context, my comments below are based on driving a Cayman R.

I first tried PS2s (the stock tires). They had decent grip and talked consistently and a lot, but they didn't last long - got torn up and corded. So I'm not really a fan.

I just finished using a set of Yokohama AD08s. Grip was about the same as the PS2s, maybe a little better. Sometimes they talked, sometimes not, so I learned to not rely at all on them talking. Durability was excellent, got an amazing 30+ track days out of them, and they didn't chunk, get otherwise torn up, or cord. BUT, this weekend, despite having tread left, they were apparently heat-cycled out, resulting in reduced grip and abrupt breakaway with little warning. At first, I thought the problem was me, but John Sullivan drove the car and had it all kinds of sideways, and said the tires were about as bad as tires get. I managed to adapt to the tires and had a fun learning experience, but the tires are done and need to be replaced this week. I have no problem with getting another set of AD08s, but would like to try something else to see how they compare.

Here are some rankings at Tire Rack:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=EP
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=MP

Bridgestone RE-11s are ranked even higher than the AD08s, and I've heard only good things about them.

Dunlop Direzza Star Specs are also ranked above the AD08s, and I've heard good things about them also. But they don't appear to be available in my size.

Hankook RS-3 seems less commonly used, and the ranking indicates not as good on wet pavement. But a guy at WG had them on a Cayman and he was hauling serious ass, so that got me thinking ...

Michelin Super Sports are getting rave reviews, with people saying that they have better grip than the PS2s despite having a treadwear rating of 300 and lasting a long time (and costing less!). Sounds too good to be true, but maybe they've got some magic rubber.

Any other tires worth considering? Thoughts or experiences on any of the above?

[tbernard]

R6's will require a trailer either for the car or the wheels/tires.

R6's also do not talk to you. Once you go R6, there's no looking back, everything is just crap.

[Vicegrip]

Second set of wheels and R comp.

[CanAm]

Second set of wheels and R comp.

Could go that way next season, but a couple considerations for now are that I'm hoping that summer street tires might get us through the winter since the car doesn't have to be used when temps are well below 40 F, plus I'll likely still be sharing the car with the wife next season and I want her to start generating meaningful slip angles and at least get to Blue before driving on R-comps.

When I had the PS2s I was more eager to move to R-comps, but the AD08s showed me that a street tire can have acceptable grip and last a while even when driven fairly hard on the track.

As a side note, I noticed this season that street tires seem to be more common in higher run groups in other PCA regions as compared to Potomac.

[Vicegrip]

Then get more of waht you know and know worked for you and the wife.

Same as with brake pads as you increase the thermal stress street formulations and builds work less and less well.

I have alos noted that some other groups don't drive the track quite as hard as Potomac tends to. YMMV

[CanAm]

Then get more of waht you know and know worked for you and the wife.

Same as with brake pads as you increase the thermal stress street formulations and builds work less and less well.

I have alos noted that some other groups don't drive the track quite as hard as Potomac tends to. YMMV

Could go with the AD08s again, but since they were a pleasant surprise overall, I'd like to see if there might be something even better out there in trackable street tires. RE-11, Super Sport, etc. are tempting.

For brake pads, we've been sticking with PF08/06 since pretty much the beginning of the season (have gone through multiple sets). They work great on both street and track, and not very noisy on the street. I wouldn't consider using street pads on the track.

Potomac has a reputation for being among the faster regions, and my experience driving with 5 regions so far generally tends to bear that out, though the differences aren't striking and Potomac Green and Blue seemed unusually slow this past weekend.

[Dr K]

I won't address you search for the next street tires--I want to talk about your plans for next year. There's a difference between "R comps" and Hoosier R6s. Just like with pads, there are different levels with plusses and minuses. Toyo RA1s and 888s don't have the grip of the Hoosier, but they'll have dramatically more grip than the street tires, and will give more auditory feedback than the Hoosier. But the big drawback for the Hoosier is heat cycles. Unless you treat them with traction compound, they're basically gone after 15-18 heat cycles, and they're really not much better (on my car, at least) than RA1s after about 8-10 heat cycles. That means 1 track weekend with great grip, and another with good grip, then pony up $$$ for another set. If you're racing, you can get them at the track, but for DEs it means another trip to the tire store. Note that some with very light cars have gotten considerably more life out of them (e.g. VG with his 912) but your Cayman R isn't that light.

There are other great DE tires (not available in my size) like the Nitto, which I'm told is like a shaved RA1, but I have no experience with them. Jazzbass used them--perhaps he'll chime in. But I wouldn't go to Hoosiers until you are closer to racing.

[BlackTalon]

The Nittos are in limited sizes. And that is a big factor -- make sure any tire you are entertaining is available in the size you need.

[CanAm]

I won't address you search for the next street tires--I want to talk about your plans for next year. There's a difference between "R comps" and Hoosier R6s. Just like with pads, there are different levels with plusses and minuses. Toyo RA1s and 888s don't have the grip of the Hoosier, but they'll have dramatically more grip than the street tires, and will give more auditory feedback than the Hoosier. But the big drawback for the Hoosier is heat cycles. Unless you treat them with traction compound, they're basically gone after 15-18 heat cycles, and they're really not much better (on my car, at least) than RA1s after about 8-10 heat cycles. That means 1 track weekend with great grip, and another with good grip, then pony up $$$ for another set. If you're racing, you can get them at the track, but for DEs it means another trip to the tire store. Note that some with very light cars have gotten considerably more life out of them (e.g. VG with his 912) but your Cayman R isn't that light.

There are other great DE tires (not available in my size) like the Nitto, which I'm told is like a shaved RA1, but I have no experience with them. Jazzbass used them--perhaps he'll chime in. But I wouldn't go to Hoosiers until you are closer to racing.

Your points are well taken. I've ridden in many cars on Hoosiers and the grip felt amazing compared to my street tires, so a seed was planted. But I do plan to spend some time on R-comps before Hoosiers, and may still be on street tires for a while before trying R-comps. A nice thing about this weekend was that I learned that I can deal with ill-behaved tires, so I'm no longer worried about adapting to stickier tires when the time comes.

[arob]

I ran Hankook RS3s yesterday in Red/Black combined on the 325. My wife and I share the car for DEs, and it's more than enough for her (~20 days of track experience). Don't rush to get Hoosiers, and be patient.

[CanAm]

I ran Hankook RS3s yesterday in Red/Black combined on the 325. My wife and I share the car for DEs, and it's more than enough for her (~20 days of track experience). Don't rush to get Hoosiers, and be patient.

Ah yes, I remember seeing you out there in the combined White/Black/Red session. How do you like the RS3s?

BTW, my wife has about the same number of track days as your wife.

[vranko]

A majority of Cayman drivers run with R888s or NT01s. I'd recommend you move to those next. With a decent amount of tread the R888s are fine for driving back and forth from the track in most conditions (even snow, ask me how I know :shock:). If you keep the R888s below 35psi they perform fine. I'll probably switch to the NT01s after my current R888s give in.

[CanAm]

A majority of Cayman drivers run with R888s or NT01s. I'd recommend you move to those next. With a decent amount of tread the R888s are fine for driving back and forth from the track in most conditions (even snow, ask me how I know :shock:). If you keep the R888s below 35psi they perform fine. I'll probably switch to the NT01s after my current R888s give in.

Will probably soon get a set of 18" wheels so that I can use R888s, NT01s, etc. But for now, I need to get tires that fit my 19" wheels because - hold on to your hat - I'll be back at Shenandoah and Summit again for an event with PCA Metro NY this coming Sunday and Monday. I couldn't resist, since it will be my last chance to drive my beloved Shenandoah this season, plus I'm interested to see how the car/tires behave at even colder temps.

[arob]

Ah yes, I remember seeing you out there in the combined White/Black/Red session. How do you like the RS3s?

BTW, my wife has about the same number of track days as your wife.

The RS3 are a good tire. It was fun running in the combined session on those tires. As long as you don't mind sliding the car around a bit, they're great. :D

I didn't switch to RA1s until I got into White, and I started on non-shaved tires. It's good to experience how much better they get as they start to wear. They lasted me ~2.5 seasons, as I was pretty diligent about monitoring the wear / flipping on the rim.

[Vicegrip]

Not all heat cycles are alike. I did my fastest lap times on 40+ heat cycle Hoos.

Lighter cars tend to have longer tire lifecycles regardless of tire used.

IMO with 40 days on track it is time to move away from street tires.

[Chopper Dropper]

Not all heat cycles are alike. I did my fastest lap times on 40+ heat cycle Hoos.

Lighter cars tend to have longer tire lifecycles regardless of tire used.

IMO with 40 days on track it is time to move away from street tires.

Agree normally, but he is sharing car with his wife in green, so some compromise may be needed
Dirk

[CanAm]

Another consideration. Driving a car with lesser tires and not too much power compels you to drive better in order to hang with your peers. I kind of like that. And of course people have said it many times in this forum.

For me, the fun isn't in 'the thrill of speed' or being faster than other cars, but rather in working towards leaving as little on the table as possible (with a sufficient safety margin) with any car, on any tires, on any track, with any track conditions. That's pretty much my working definition of a 'good driver'.

I experienced good diversity with those variables this season, except that next season I need to add the diversity of driving more than one car on the track. I had a chance to briefly drive a couple cars besides the Cayman on track this season, and one benefit was that I gave me more confidence in driving those cars on the road, since I had a much better sense of what they could and couldn't do.

[Dr K]

IMO with 40 days on track it is time to get a dedicated track car.FTFY! :D

Another consideration. Driving a car with lesser tires and not too much power compels you to drive better in order to hang with your peers. I kind of like that. And of course people have said it many times in this forum.

For me, the fun isn't in 'the thrill of speed' or being faster than other cars, but rather in working towards leaving as little on the table as possible (with a sufficient safety margin) with any car, on any tires, on any track, with any track conditions. That's pretty much my working definition of a 'good driver'.
I get ribbed a lot on this board and called "slow," but in truth I'm mid-pack (in a very big pack) when racing. So I'm not really fast (DerABT is fast: when on the same tires, still a minimum of 1 and often several seconds/lap faster than me in the same class car! of course, I found out my car was significantly low on power and that has been remedied, but he'll still be 1 full second faster than me if not more). But in my run group and on RA-1s, I pass plenty of modern-suspension cars with 50% greater horsepower and a few with double my horsepower. Sure, I'm lighter than they are, but I run with 120-160 pounds of ballast so I'm not THAT much lighter than they are... That is fun, my friend, but there are still the DerABTs and Lawson's of the world (and even Patrick R's) who can take that turn faster than I'm willing to try... :shock:

[CanAm]

I get ribbed a lot on this board and called "slow," but in truth I'm mid-pack (in a very big pack) when racing. So I'm not really fast (DerABT is fast: when on the same tires, still a minimum of 1 and often several seconds/lap faster than me in the same class car! of course, I found out my car was significantly low on power and that has been remedied, but he'll still be 1 full second faster than me if not more). But in my run group and on RA-1s, I pass plenty of modern-suspension cars with 50% greater horsepower and a few with double my horsepower. Sure, I'm lighter than they are, but I run with 120-160 pounds of ballast so I'm not THAT much lighter than they are... That is fun, my friend, but there are still the DerABTs and Lawson's of the world (and even Patrick R's) who can take that turn faster than I'm willing to try... :shock:

I was telling VaSteve this weekend that one of my driving goals is to eventually club race and consistently place 45th in a field of 50. :lol: As long as I'm not absolute last place every time, I won't need to just pack up and go home. I mainly just want to learn and have fun while being safe, as the mantra goes. We all have our competitive side, but I recognize that there are always going to be people who have more talent and/or willingness to put in time and effort, which is fine, and driving will never be my livelihood anyway (quite the opposite when it comes to cash flow!). And yes, safety will always be a priority for me - I've come to like the idea of keeping it on the track, pointed forward, shiny side up, no dents. :)

[Dr K]

If you want "no dents" then don't race...

This was the result of a "nudge" at Mid-Ohio - very minor but it needs to be repaired...

33533

[Vicegrip]

Agree normally, but he is sharing car with his wife in green, so some compromise may be needed
Dirkhe has a quiver of cars;) all this time and $ spent to go halfway?

[Vicegrip]

Another consideration. Driving a car with lesser tires and not too much power compels you to drive better in order to hang with your peers. I kind of like that. And of course people have said it many times in this forum.

For me, the fun isn't in 'the thrill of speed' or being faster than other cars, but rather in working towards leaving as little on the table as possible (with a sufficient safety margin) with any car, on any tires, on any track, with any track conditions. That's pretty much my working definition of a 'good driver'.

I experienced good diversity with those variables this season, except that next season I need to add the diversity of driving more than one car on the track. I had a chance to briefly drive a couple cars besides the Cayman on track this season, and one benefit was that I gave me more confidence in driving those cars on the road, since I had a much better sense of what they could and couldn't do.The skills in driving any car any track come almost as a byproduct of the peformance skill pool itself. Those that end up being the best at something work on and with what they want to excell in. You can't just grit your teeth and say to yourself " I will work harder and drive faster" than your skills and gear. This is simply overdriving and is a common way to learn to go slower or end up on the flat bed. Starting with a fixed set of vairables and then adding new as the existing set become rote is SOP for learing many things. Get slam dunk good at something in full form then try other cars and you will have a solid base to ajust from. I spent plenty of seat time in a basic low hp car. Moving to a higher hp car with some aero was a good jump bit the translation was eased by a basic driving skil set. I only had to add in use of aero.

[CanAm]

The skills in driving any car any track come almost as a byproduct of the peformance skill pool itself. Those that end up being the best at something work on and with what they want to excell in. You can't just grit your teeth and say to yourself " I will work harder and drive faster" than your skills and gear. This is simply overdriving and is a common way to learn to go slower or end up on the flat bed. Starting with a fixed set of vairables and then adding new as the existing set become rote is SOP for learing many things. Get slam dunk good at something in full form then try other cars and you will have a solid base to ajust from. I spent plenty of seat time in a basic low hp car. Moving to a higher hp car with some aero was a good jump bit the translation was eased by a basic driving skil set. I only had to add in use of aero.

Agreed. My aim is to keep trying to improve my skill until I'm leaving very little on the table for any given car, tires, etc. I recognize from my own experience this season that development of that skill is a gradual process, and can't be forced to happen quickly through desire or effort alone. A related mantra I derived from one of my instructors is "aim to drive well, and speed will eventually and naturally follow, rather than directly aiming to be fast." I'm satisfied with the progress I made this season, and got good feedback from instructors, but I know there are still some seconds to be found and it may take a while to find them.

[CanAm]

he has a quiver of cars;) all this time and $ spent to go halfway?

Not quite a quiver, but we do currently have two other trackable cars and I could put R-comps on one of them while keeping street tires on the Cayman the wife will be driving.

[Vicegrip]

Not quite a quiver, but we do currently have two other trackable cars and I could put R-comps on one of them while keeping street tires on the Cayman the wife will be driving.
Up to you to use what platform you want to learn on. I would use the car I intended to drive in full without compromise if at all able to. I used to think people should hold off on the R comps but I might be rethinking this some. My thinking is shifting a bit as if a student fully intends to end up on R comp it might be better to go there while still fully instructed. As students are moved to white where the thinking is that they still students just without an apointed instructor. Many end up on track largly uninstructed. Are we turning people loose to figure out R comps on their own? Are peformance streets close enough to r comps that the transition is not large? I think this depends on the type to some extent. I also think many switch to stickers and do not drive them to the full value for a set or 2. Take Hohos, they feel great up to about 7/10ths where they start to feel a bit off. When pushed a bit harder is when they truly hook up. How many new users stop at the transition point as it feels like the start of street tire breakaway and don't get the full value of the tires? How many of us learned all the little things regarding sticky tires more each on their own rather than info handed down and decoded?

If you want to get real good at something you have to do that thing. want to get true fast in a car, getting all out of it? You need to refine your driving in that platform as it is intended to be used.

Dual use green driver and sign off Blue, White or above is fine but it might be limiting the skill advancement of the advanced driver to some extent.

[ausgeflippt951]

IMO, it's time for you to buy an old car with no power, no assists, clunky transmission, etc.

That's when you really appreciate just how far automotive technology has come, and it'll make you a better driver! :D

[CanAm]

Not quite a quiver, but we do currently have two other trackable cars and I could put R-comps on one of them while keeping street tires on the Cayman the wife will be driving.

Just found that R888s are available in our sizes using the stock wheels on the 911. Can't wait for it to get warm again!

Up to you to use what platform you want to learn on. I would use the car I intended to drive in full without compromise if at all able to. I used to think people should hold off on the R comps but I might be rethinking this some. My thinking is shifting a bit as if a student fully intends to end up on R comp it might be better to go there while still fully instructed. As students are moved to white where the thinking is that they still students just without an apointed instructor. Many end up on track largly uninstructed. Are we turning people loose to figure out R comps on their own? Are peformance streets close enough to r comps that the transition is not large? I think this depends on the type to some extent. I also think many switch to stickers and do not drive them to the full value for a set or 2. Take Hohos, they feel great up to about 7/10ths where they start to feel a bit off. When pushed a bit harder is when they truly hook up. How many new users stop at the transition point as it feels like the start of street tire breakaway and don't get the full value of the tires? How many of us learned all the little things regarding sticky tires more each on their own rather than info handed down and decoded?

If you want to get real good at something you have to do that thing. want to get true fast in a car, getting all out of it? You need to refine your driving in that platform as it is intended to be used.

Dual use green driver and sign off Blue, White or above is fine but it might be limiting the skill advancement of the advanced driver to some extent.

Good points. Pros and cons for sure, and I'm not sure what the best approach is. Could say street tires in Green and R-comps in Blue, but some people don't spend enough time in Green or Blue for that to work. Maybe lots of skidpad time would enable sufficient car control to adapt to stickier tires without need of lots of instruction? And personally, I don't see much point in getting stickier tires if one doesn't intend to work towards driving them at 9/10+ at least some of the time.

IMO, it's time for you to buy an old car with no power, no assists, clunky transmission, etc.

That's when you really appreciate just how far automotive technology has come, and it'll make you a better driver! :D

Guys with old cars are always trying to convince me to get an old car! :lol: I love those things, and if our garage could fit more than two cars, I'd go for it, but for now we're pretty constrained. I'd actually like to consolidate and get rid of a car or two, but they're all so different and it's hard to let any of them go. I was recently ready to let the C63 go, but then the wife was the one who started crying and couldn't part with it. :roll:

[Of Porsche]

Irfan, bought a set of Michelin SuperSports earlier this year, virtually everything I'd read indicated they were superior to PS2 I had. Question was why ~$300 less. Only logic is no n rating from Porsche (yet) & PS2s look like they may be phased out eventually. Called Porsche NA in Atlanta, generic "call your dealer" response. Called Michelin in SC. Told them what kind of car I had and immediate recommendation was the SuperSports. Excellent tire.
Then last week I went to see Paul @ Radial Tire....put the R888s on......WOW at SP this past weekend! Maybe for Christmas you & Annabelle could exchange gifts!!

[Jazzbass]

Then last week I went to see Paul @ Radial Tire....put the R888s on......WOW at SP this past weekend!

The best street tires simply cannot compare to r comps at the track. Everyone spends a lot of time researching the best street tire until they try r comps. Then, all of the distinctions between different performance street tires become largely meaningless. Tires suddenly get grouped into two categories: track tires and tires that you drive on to get to the track. You quickly lose interest in the latter. I couldn't tell you what street tires I have on my 911.

[BMAN]

Maybe lots of skidpad time would enable sufficient car control to adapt to stickier tires without need of lots of instruction?

Knowing your experience and driving ability, you will adapt very quickly and won't need much help understanding the tire. I think you'll find 888's or NT01's have more grip but are still communicative, so adaptation will be easy. And considering the amount of skid pad time you have, you shouldn't have much trouble staying ahead of the tire.

Hoosiers will be next........sooner than you think :twisted:

[CanAm]

Decided to try the RE-11 next, and will report back on how they perform, though they'll be at a disadvantage with the colder weather these days.

After I got them, I ran across this article which rates the Super Sports in first place, though the RE-11 wasn't among the tires tested: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/michelin-pilot-super-sport-page-10.