944 Suspension Refresh

[ruffyz]

During the tech it became apparent that I need to replace all my shocks on the 944. My goal for this car is DD/AutoX with light track duty, but while I'm in there I figure I've got a chance to fiddle around with the entire setup. I'm no suspension expert, but I figure I've got four main options

1) Stick with stock everything and koni hack my structs. The advantage here is low cost and less chance of upsetting the delicate balance of rust and age. The disadvantage is the fear of death that comes from worth with the springs.

2) Go for a spec 944 setup with a new torsion bar and strut assembly. The advantage here is that I pretty much know the setup is going to work and feel good. The disadvantage being the labor of re-indexing the T-bar and cost.

3) Go for coil overs all around and remove the torsion bar. The advantage is the suspension is going to be more modern and fully adjustable. Disadvantage being cost and not being able to run spec 944 (not that I'm near that point in my life anyway). Initial removal of the T-bar will be a pain, but once it's out, it's out.

4) Stay close to OEM and just get paragon to build me front strut assemblies with 200lb spring rate and replace just the rear shocks. The advantage here is ease of labor; the job should be unbolt and bolt back in. The disadvantage being it's still not that much cheaper than a "better" setup.

Personally I'm leaning towards 3 or 4 due to ease, but maybe I'm overestimating the difficulty of cutting the stock strut and working with the spring. What do you real suspension experts think?

[ruffyz]

Oh, I'm assuming Koni's are the recommended shocks, or is that untrue?

[racer]

Cost? Don't you want to actually win a DE? ;)

Full mulit adjustable motons please.. 500# springs, rip out torsion bar and interior.. weld in cage.. buils a dang 944GTP car!


What do you want to do with the car? How long do you plan to own it? I'd rather cry once and "do it right" once than try the "stages" build.

Overall, it would be cheaper to sell yours and buy TonyP's '86 (85.5?) 944 former club race car that's for sale ;)

[Potomac-Greg]

If you're serious about autocross, modifications will put you in a higher class, into a financial spiral. If you want a track day car (not racing) coilovers do make life easy. Don't bother planning to make it a race car. Better to buy a race car when you want one.

[ruffyz]

What do you want to do with the car? How long do you plan to own it? I'd rather cry once and "do it right" once than try the "stages" build.

My thoughts exactly on the do it right once approach, but I think my objective is aggressive street. Something I can drive but also do some events with.



Overall, it would be cheaper to sell yours and buy TonyP's '86 (85.5?) 944 former club race car that's for sale

Oh man, I wish, but that really would be jumping in with both feet. Just not there yet.

[ruffyz]

If you're serious about autocross, modifications will put you in a higher class, into a financial spiral. If you want a track day car (not racing) coilovers do make life easy. Don't bother planning to make it a race car. Better to buy a race car when you want one.


I don't feel the need to win, just the need for speed. But yeah, I think the ultimate route is to buy a race car when I'm ready.

[hobiecat]

My advice - take it or leave it:

If you're going to be at SP this weekend, take some time to walk around the pits
and take a really close look at EVERY 944 in the paddock. Take some time to talk to the drivers.
Ask them what they did to their cars....and why they did it. Ask them HOW they did it. Ask them what
they learned...what didn't work....what they would've done differently.

After that.....Do some serious research (on the internet). And ....if you decide
to buy some "go fast parts", call the company that makes/sells them. Ask lots of questions. Make
sure you know what you're buying.

Do all of these things - and you'll save some time and money. And you won't waste your time
and money going in a direction that leads nowhere.

If you don't....well....you know the rest.

[ruffyz]

Rock on hobiecat. Forums are good, actually talking to people is better.

[Potomac-Greg]

My advice - take it or leave it:

If you're going to be at SP this weekend, take some time to walk around the pits
and take a really close look at EVERY 944 in the paddock.

To facilitate your research, many of the 944s will be up on jackstands, so you'll be able to look at their suspension from underneath. :D

[hobiecat]

You should know dude. Didn't YOU used to have one? :-)

[John Clay]

Raffy. One thing from your original post. Has spec 944 made its way to tbe east coast? Back when I was starting spec 944944 was only a west coast deal. In tbe east it is 944 cup, a much more open series.

[ruffyz]

Yeah, as I'm doing more research it seems spec is mostly west coast into the midwest, but there looks to be at least some activity in the Southeast region. For my purposes a spec suspension setup is a data point as to the stiffest possible setup with street shocks, not that I'm advocating such a setup for my car. Still haven't figured it all out, tomorrow should be fruitful.

[ausgeflippt951]

To facilitate your research, many of the 944s will be up on jackstands, so you'll be able to look at their suspension from underneath. :D


Yeah, I was on jackstands this weekend so I wasn't doing anything to help the stereotype.

Fortunately my "issues" were limited to (a) a loose hub bolt (weird!) and lost wheel weights. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.



Anyway Raffi, I didn't know you were looking to actually upgrade your suspension, otherwise I could've spent some time going over my car with you.


I spent the time "doing it right" and let me tell you, it ain't easy. BUT, I've been hugely happy with it. I chose a setup that is just about as stiff as you'd want it for the street.


Many people have been doing rear coilovers nowadays and just leaving their stock t-bars alone. Alternatively, some are choosing to remove the T-bars altogether. I chose to replace my t-bars with stiffer units because the coilover thing was relatively new to the "normal guy" scene and I didn't trust the mounting points. Seems like I was wrong; I've never heard of a shock mounting point failure on these cars (the reason I was skeptical was because the shock is a non-stressed member, but as soon as you put coilovers there, it becomes a stressed member).


Anyway, here's what I did, and it has made for a ridiculously well-balanced track car that has so far been able to run circles around most cars at SP:

-- Koni Yellows
-- 350# springs front
-- 30mm torsion bars
-- 27.5mm front sway (from a Turbo S -- you don't need any more than this with this setup)
-- 19mm adjustable 968 MO30 rear sway (I'm in the middle)



One thing to note: it does make the ride fairly harsh for a street car; some might say it's too stiff if you're going to street drive it often. But as long as your bushings/balljoints/wheel bearings are also in good shape, it will feel nice and tight.



Like I said about t-bars -- it's kind of a "dying breed": most people are installing coilovers nowadays.

Since the N/A is such a softly-sprung car, you really will need to do both the front and rear suspension together (whereas you can get away with modestly upgrading the front susp and leave the rear alone with a 951). Also, as a point of reference, the 250# spring is the stiffest spring you can install before you need to go to coilovers.

If memory serves, the N/A spring rate is something around 125#. The 951 is in the neighborhood of 150-175# (the Turbo S is stiffer).

[ruffyz]

Yeah, I'm leaning towards going ahead and doing springs in the front along with new koni's, which means I'm going to have to mess with the rear. The stock front spring rate is 140 lbs and rear is 126 lbs equivalent according to clark's and other sources, so from what I hear even 200 lbs springs in the front is going to be a bit unbalanced without upping the rear.

[Trak Ratt]

... so from what I hear even 200 lbs springs in the front is going to be a bit unbalanced without upping the rear.If you aren't going racing right away AND your rear bushes aren't toast why not go with raer coil overs too? Easy to add considering what replacing the t-bars take.

[ruffyz]

If you aren't going racing right away AND your rear bushes aren't toast why not go with raer coil overs too? Easy to add considering what replacing the t-bars take.

So you're saying go for stiff coils front and back even if I'm not racing? I'm hoping to get a ride-along on a 944 with an upgraded suspension so I can make my own call as to what is "too stiff".

I haven't studied the t-bar schematic yet, so I don't even know how to being assessing the current state of the rear suspension. I suspect that many a rubber bushing or moving part needs some TLC.

[tank]

.. so from what I hear even 200 lbs springs in the front is going to be a bit unbalanced without upping the rear.

I just installed Koni yellows with 250lb springs up front and just the shocks in the rear. No changes to the torsion bar. Hope I haven't ruined it. There was a write-up that I read some months ago that explained what effect changing certain aspects of the suspension will have to overall handling..

http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/susp-15.htm

[hobiecat]

I've got 400lb springs with coilovers in the front. That's balanced against 30mm torsion bars in the rear.
Yes - it's pretty stiff, but you can still drive it on the street. I drove it to Mid-Ohio one year.......

As has been said before, torsion bars are a PITA. It took me 4 tries to get it right. By tries, that means
I had to drop the rear suspension unit and re-index the bars 4 times to get the ride height I wanted. Then
I used the eccentric bolt to make the final adjustments during corner balancing.

If you want that part to be easier, coilovers in the rear make setting the ride height 1000 times easier
and the stock bars weigh less. However, the extra weight of the 30mm bars is close to the bottom of the
car so the overall effect of the weight gain is minimized. Also - I'm kind of hard headed, so the more I heard people
complain about how hard it was to do T-bars, part of me just wanted to see if I could do it.

Don't forget sway bars. Make sure that you "match" them up too. I have a 30 mm up front (from a Turbo S)
and an 18mm adjustable in the rear. In hard cornering, these really help quite a bit.

New bushings really help as well. There are many choices out there that are far better than stock. Check out Elephant Racing....

In the end, my car can corner significantly better than it did when in "stock" condition, but at the same
time, it's nicely balanced and neutral - which is what I was going for. Street comfort was not a real factor,
but then it was never intended to be a daily driver.

[Trak Ratt]

So you're saying go for stiff coils front and back even if I'm not racing?
No, I'm saying matching the stiffer front springs is easier (less work, less $$) with rear coil overs than t-bars. If you have ever replaced or paid someone to replace the t-bars on '44 you'd instantly know what I mean. Don't think coil covers are legal in most popular racing groups so there is that too. Still until you are ready to go racing they might be a cost effective way to feel your way through the suspension upgrade jungle.

[HoodPin]

Raffy. One thing from your original post. Has spec 944 made its way to tbe east coast? Back when I was starting spec 944944 was only a west coast deal. In tbe east it is 944 cup, a much more open series.

FWIW, you can still build and run a 944Spec (SP1) car, just won't have that much competition in class (yet, anyway). But still an effective route to racing, without having to go the whole SP2 route. And in the end, the time differences between 944Spec and SP2 isn't that much different, so would still be fun to drive & race.

Regarding the rear suspesion, Koni coilovers is the way to go. Easy install, and easy corner balancing. And as I'm reading the rules, coil overs in place of torsion bars is allowed in all the 944Cup classes.
http://www.44cup.com/official/944CupRules-2012.pdf

[ausgeflippt951]

I've got 400lb springs with coilovers in the front. That's balanced against 30mm torsion bars in the rear.
Yes - it's pretty stiff, but you can still drive it on the street. I drove it to Mid-Ohio one year.......

As has been said before, torsion bars are a PITA. It took me 4 tries to get it right. By tries, that means
I had to drop the rear suspension unit and re-index the bars 4 times to get the ride height I wanted. Then
I used the eccentric bolt to make the final adjustments during corner balancing.

If you want that part to be easier, coilovers in the rear make setting the ride height 1000 times easier
and the stock bars weigh less. However, the extra weight of the 30mm bars is close to the bottom of the
car so the overall effect of the weight gain is minimized. Also - I'm kind of hard headed, so the more I heard people
complain about how hard it was to do T-bars, part of me just wanted to see if I could do it.

Don't forget sway bars. Make sure that you "match" them up too. I have a 30 mm up front (from a Turbo S)
and an 18mm adjustable in the rear. In hard cornering, these really help quite a bit.

New bushings really help as well. There are many choices out there that are far better than stock. Check out Elephant Racing....

In the end, my car can corner significantly better than it did when in "stock" condition, but at the same
time, it's nicely balanced and neutral - which is what I was going for. Street comfort was not a real factor,
but then it was never intended to be a daily driver.


If you don't mind me asking: do you suffer from understeer? IME, 30mm T-bars lend themselves a bit better to 350# springs. Then again, what sway bars do you have? I'd be hesitant to go with 400# springs + 30mm T-bars in an N/A since you don't really have many ways of inducing oversteer at that point! :p

Then again, it also depends on your driving style + other mods. My setup (350# + 30mm) is with a stock interior/panels/wt distribution, so YMMV.



Regarding the rear suspesion, Koni coilovers is the way to go. Easy install, and easy corner balancing. And as I'm reading the rules, coil overs in place of torsion bars is allowed in all the 944Cup classes.
http://www.44cup.com/official/944CupRules-2012.pdf


Oh reeeeally. That is interesting; I didn't think that used to be the case.



As others have said, reindexing T-bars is a real PITA. However, with a basic knowledge of trig (and planning ahead when you pull it apart) you can *usually* do it in one try.

If it were my car to do over, I'd probably go with coilovers in the rear. Easier to modify spring rates, easier to adjust/corner balance.

That said, if your spring plate bushings are shot and you're going to need to pull most of it apart anyway, the advantage may not be as great as one might hope.


In the case of my car, I installed polybronze spring plate bushings while I was in there. Big help.

[HoodPin]

......That said, if your spring plate bushings are shot and you're going to need to pull most of it apart anyway, the advantage may not be as great as one might hope.,,.

Unless, you simply remove the t-bars while you're in there, and then replace the rear coil-over springs with heavier ones. ;)

[Potomac-Greg]

Unless, you simply remove the t-bars while you're in there, and then replace the rear coil-over springs with heavier ones. ;)

2nd. On a scale of 1-10 in terms of expertise and effort required:

1. Adding rear coilovers to torsion bar = 2/10
2. Upgrading and indexing torsion bar = 8/10
3. Yanking torsion bars and replacing with coilovers = 5/10

(I did #1, wasn't happy, so then #3.)

[ausgeflippt951]

2nd. On a scale of 1-10 in terms of expertise and effort required:

1. Adding rear coilovers to torsion bar = 2/10
2. Upgrading and indexing torsion bar = 8/10
3. Yanking torsion bars and replacing with coilovers = 5/10

(I did #1, wasn't happy, so then #3.)


Well said, Greg.


I've heard some people have even go to the lengths of un-indexing the t-bars but keeping them there; it's always seemed a little odd to me.


What didn't you like about #1? Interesting to hear. I personally don't have much experience with #1; my current car is #2 and I love it.

[jsheiry]

I have gone the route that Tony suggests and have also used Jason at Paragon for much technical info as well as this and other boards. I now have the following setup:

Koni Coil overs up front with 400 lb springs 26.8mm sway bar
Gaz Coil overs in rear with 575 lb springs 16 mm sway bar

Torsion bars removed, bushings replaced (Why Porsche actually calls the volcanized rubber thing a bushing is beyond me?? Not sure when all bolted together how it actually moves in ANY precision manner?? The race area has so much slag from the welding process its almost laughable.)

I think the car is incredibly neutral, infinetly adjustable as far as ride height with much ease. Change springs weight, height at a moments notice etc.. etc.... etc..

In the end as my car sat in the garage with my little time and money for all these so called upgrades I WISH I never messed with it and got MORE seat time like many people suggested to me. I missed DE's because I wanted to do all this stuff and quite frankly have missed much fun and valuable time.

I will say in the end I do like working on the thing as much as driving it (I'm strange like that) but do look back and feel that participating in the DE's would have been a better use of the time and money.

[smdubovsky]

my current car is #2 and I love it.

:D

[Trak Ratt]

:D
^ I'm ashamed to admit it but it took me a minute or two for this to sink in... :roll: :lol: :lol:

[John Clay]

^ I'm ashamed to admit it but it took me a minute or two for this to sink in... :roll: :lol: :lol:

I just "got it"

[ruffyz]

I just read through http://www.elephantracing.com/project/944/944springplatediy.htm the spring plate bushing removal looks annoying, but doable. Still, makes me wonder if redoing the torsion bars is really worth the effort. Pulling it out and going to coils might be the way to go, but pricey.

Anyone want to give me a ride-along in their '44, so I can get a feel for different spring rates?

[ausgeflippt951]

:D

^ I'm ashamed to admit it but it took me a minute or two for this to sink in... :roll: :lol: :lol:

I just "got it"


Har har har.


I just read through http://www.elephantracing.com/project/944/944springplatediy.htm the spring plate bushing removal looks annoying, but doable. Still, makes me wonder if redoing the torque tube is really worth the effort. Pulling it out and going to coils might be the way to go, but pricey.

Anyone want to give me a ride-along in their '44, so I can get a feel for different spring rates?


What's your timeline looking like on this? Did you see my response to your PM -- the car will be on jackstands for the next few weeks but after that will be good to go...

Also, did you mean "redoing the t-bars"? Not sure where the TT came into the conversation.

[ruffyz]

What's your timeline looking like on this? Did you see my response to your PM -- the car will be on jackstands for the next few weeks but after that will be good to go...

Also, did you mean "redoing the t-bars"? Not sure where the TT came into the conversation.

I'm in no hurry really. Yeah, torsion bar is what I meant. The TT is a whole different ballgame of annoying.

[smdubovsky]

To those that remove the t-bars, does anyone make a 935 style spring plate replacement for 944s? (a fixed plate + rod end for toe?) Would be simpler to install & adj than the elephant polybronze.

[APKhaos]

To those that remove the t-bars, does anyone make a 935 style spring plate replacement for 944s? (a fixed plate + rod end for toe?) Would be simpler to install & adj than the elephant polybronze.

Never seen one. Most go with the stock trailing arms, which are pretty much bombproof, and coil over setup.

[RedOctober]

Anyone want to give me a ride-along in their '44, so I can get a feel for different spring rates?

I am not exactly close to you, but I would be happy to give you a ride in my '86 with 425# springs in the front, and 30mm T-bars. Sways are not stock, but are not the biggest either (can't remember the sizes now).

If I can change the T-bars, ANYONE can (although I did have some help from good samaritans on this board).

[VaSteve]

If I can change the T-bars, ANYONE can (although I did have some help from good samaritans on this board).


I SOLD that car so I wouldn't have to do this job, and still got the opportunity to participate. :lol:

[hobiecat]

If you don't mind me asking: do you suffer from understeer? IME, 30mm T-bars lend themselves a bit better to 350# springs. Then again, what sway bars do you have? I'd be hesitant to go with 400# springs + 30mm T-bars in an N/A since you don't really have many ways of inducing oversteer at that point! :p

Then again, it also depends on your driving style + other mods. My setup (350# + 30mm) is with a stock interior/panels/wt distribution, so YMMV.


I wanted neutral and that's exactly what I have. (Sliding around corners is for 911's....and I guess 944 Turbos?).
I have enough problems to overcome driving a lower horsepower car.....so the way I see it, sliding simply means
I'm losing momentum. Losing momentum = bad.

The car is very neutral and sticks. I am always pleasantly surprised when I push it beyond the point where I think it
should get loose. So - it's still got more and I still have more to learn from it. When I get past that point, I'll be looking for an upgrade.

I also did the full Elephant Racing upgrades - my control arm bushings were replaced with sealed bearings, and I
went polybronze on the spring plates.

Do I think it's the absolute best setup for me? Yep. For someone else? Maybe not. All I know is I like it the way it is.

[VaSteve]

Do I think it's the absolute best setup for me? Yep. For someone else? Maybe not. All I know is I like it the way it is.


Good. Learn with the car you have until you can't learn anymore. Then take it to someone and have them look it over and tweak it.

I can get some nice neutral sliding with my car, it's fun!

[ausgeflippt951]

To those that remove the t-bars, does anyone make a 935 style spring plate replacement for 944s? (a fixed plate + rod end for toe?) Would be simpler to install & adj than the elephant polybronze.


I'd be curious to see what that would look like; I'm not familiar with 935 rear susp. Sounds intriguing, but then again these are 944's here so the idea of upgrading to a 935-based anything is not typically a sentence one hears very often. Other than the K27/6 or K27/8 (which I'm not sure the 935 even had).

I wanted neutral and that's exactly what I have. (Sliding around corners is for 911's....and I guess 944 Turbos?).
I have enough problems to overcome driving a lower horsepower car.....so the way I see it, sliding simply means
I'm losing momentum. Losing momentum = bad.

The car is very neutral and sticks. I am always pleasantly surprised when I push it beyond the point where I think it
should get loose. So - it's still got more and I still have more to learn from it. When I get past that point, I'll be looking for an upgrade.

I also did the full Elephant Racing upgrades - my control arm bushings were replaced with sealed bearings, and I
went polybronze on the spring plates.

Do I think it's the absolute best setup for me? Yep. For someone else? Maybe not. All I know is I like it the way it is.

Cool -- very good to know. I've been very pleased with the neutrality of my car as well which made me scratch my head. Then again, a well-handling car is due to a host of factors, not just one; e.g., perhaps you're running different-sized tires than I (I'm 225/245R16).


Good. Learn with the car you have until you can't learn anymore. Then take it to someone and have them look it over and tweak it.

I can get some nice neutral sliding with my car, it's fun!


Controlled four-wheel drifts through T10 @ SP? I just got to experience some of that action this weekend. It's like an adrenaline shot straight to the heart.

[hobiecat]

Cool -- very good to know. I've been very pleased with the neutrality of my car as well which made me scratch my head. Then again, a well-handling car is due to a host of factors, not just one; e.g., perhaps you're running different-sized tires than I (I'm 225/245R16).

Yep....I run 15x7's all the way around. 235/50R15's.

[Potomac-Greg]

What didn't you like about #1? Interesting to hear. I personally don't have much experience with #1; my current car is #2 and I love it.

The #1 option (keeping torsion bars and adding coilovers) limits your ability to lower the car unless you want to re-index the torsion bars -- and if I was doing that, I'd just get stiffer torsion bars. Also, if you use both spring methods, then you need to buy a set of zero-rate helper springs for the coilovers because there will be situations where the coilover extends itself beyond the coil spring length (e.g. entering a steep driveway at an angle), and the coil spring might get hung up on the coilover when it comes back down.

Lastly, option #1 was a compromise based on my lack of mechanical courage. It took several more months before I built up the courage to take out the spring plates. As confirmed this past weekend, the car still hauls ass under new ownership!

[smdubovsky]

Never seen one. Most go with the stock trailing arms, which are pretty much bombproof, and coil over setup.

Was asking about the spring plate not the trailing arm. But I get the idea. Even a 935 spring plate (on a 911) retains the stock trailing arm.

Is this just an area where the 944 is less developed aftermarket (than a 911)? Are inner camber boxes possible on a 944 like a 911 (which don't just provide camber adj but allow raising the roll center and messing w/ anti-squat) or does something like a gas tank get in the way? Im guessing full-tube frame 944s dont keep the stock pickup points.

I always found it interesting that people shun poly bushings on the inner joint of the trailing arm because they need to twist in 2 dimensions but then do basically the same thing w/ the outer bushing.

[HoodPin]

..... As confirmed this past weekend, the car still hauls ass under new ownership!

It was funny during one of last weekend's sessions. I was riding with John, and as the SRF went by us, I said "He used to be a 944 driver, too." And John replied, "Yeah....this was his car." :oops: :p

[VaSteve]

Controlled four-wheel drifts through T10 @ SP? I just got to experience some of that action this weekend. It's like an adrenaline shot straight to the heart.


And 9. That's a good assessment.


As confirmed this past weekend, the car still hauls ass under new ownership!


It does.

It was funny to be protected by my old roll bar again as well.

[racer]

I am going to go back and say, keep it simple.

Adjustable koni's all around and learn to Drove. FWIW, i recall beating the young novice (OP) at AX in my Bone Stock (suspension, street tires) 944 by several seconds. That's an eternity on a 45-60 second course.

Spend the money on the seat time. Then some more seat time.

The more seat time you have, the more you will undestand what improvements you want to do next.

Maybe you will decide you want something quicker (S2/Turbo/Boxster/911) anyway.

[ruffyz]

I am going to go back and say, keep it simple.

Adjustable koni's all around and learn to Drove. FWIW, i recall beating the young novice (OP) at AX in my Bone Stock (suspension, street tires) 944 by several seconds. That's an eternity on a 45-60 second course.

Spend the money on the seat time. Then some more seat time.

The more seat time you have, the more you will undestand what improvements you want to do next.

Maybe you will decide you want something quicker (S2/Turbo/Boxster/911) anyway.

Now this idea I do like. Just need a hacksaw and some guts. Have there been any stories of hacked struts failing? If I go to heavier coil overs will I need/be able to get perches?

[jsheiry]

Take a look at Paragon Products website, or talk to Jason at Paragon.

He sells kits for exactly what you talking about, when you move to 2" or 2.5" diameter springs you need to buy new perches anyway. He sells a kit for this that makes the strut an adjustable ride height perch with a top perch to match.

Not saying he is the only one but certainly a great wealth of knowledge as he also races a 944/968 chassis.

Ground Control sells some similar kits and they are knowledgable but not nearly as specific 944 knowledge that you get from Jason.

[ausgeflippt951]

Jason's a great guy. Actually owns a real 968 Turbo RS.

Keep in mind that the stiffest spring you can go with on a stock strut is 250#, after which you'll need the coilover perches.

The Koni cut-n-guts are a great way to go.

[APKhaos]

^ +2 on Jason. He knows these cars well, and has good stuff.

[TurboPooch]

^^+a gajillion Jason will not steer you wrong. Tell him what you want and he will set you up. He's actually talked me out of stuff. Very honest and stands behind everything he sells. Tell him Steve in Md sent you. I've probably made the payments on his Shelby for the last couple of years....

[Vicegrip]

Was asking about the spring plate not the trailing arm. But I get the idea. Even a 935 spring plate (on a 911) retains the stock trailing arm.

Is this just an area where the 944 is less developed aftermarket (than a 911)? Are inner camber boxes possible on a 944 like a 911 (which don't just provide camber adj but allow raising the roll center and messing w/ anti-squat) or does something like a gas tank get in the way? Im guessing full-tube frame 944s dont keep the stock pickup points.

I always found it interesting that people shun poly bushings on the inner joint of the trailing arm because they need to twist in 2 dimensions but then do basically the same thing w/ the outer bushing.they do but to a further extent. some folks think hard plastic bushings bind, stress other parts and also fail quickly.

I have seen a few well set up 944 tubs that included changes to the inner pickup points.

[Trak Ratt]

Take a look at Paragon Products website, or talk to Jason at Paragon.

He sells kits for exactly what you talking about, when you move to 2" or 2.5" diameter springs you need to buy new perches anyway. He sells a kit for this that makes the strut an adjustable ride height perch with a top perch to match.

X22, kits look perfect for DYI. Ordered some but cancelled when the 931 went teats up.