Espresso Machines & other such nonsense (long and boring)

[Jazzbass]

Background
So, like many Americans, I started drinking espresso thanks to Starbucks. The espresso snobs will raise their nose at this as and dismiss their espresso as undrinkable swill, but whatever. Regular drip coffee drinkers like to say how Starbucks’ coffee all tastes burnt. Again, whatever. Their coffee is not their espresso, so separate the two mentally.

Espresso at Starbucks is drinkable, but not great. Let’s call it a 4 to 5 on a scale of 1-10. I didn’t know how not great it was until I went to Italy for the first time in 2011, but for years it was what I had and I liked it. I found I enjoyed espresso more than regular coffee, as I could get all the caffeine without having to drink 12 oz of liquid. As I drank it more and more, I realized it was more cost efficient to get my own machine. So I bought a $300 Saeco Aroma, a $100 Capresso grinder and I was in business. Straight espresso from the Saeco was always a little bitter (not as good as Starbucks), but I could make it at home while I worked and it was cheaper. In milk drinks with sugar the bitterness was easier to handle. From my perspective, I simply thought that’s what espresso was supposed to be like – strong and bitter. My wife and I went from spending $8/day at Starbucks to about $2/day for the same drinks at home. The machine paid for itself in about 2 months.

The mistake
In April 2011 my wife and I went to Italy and made the mistake of drinking espresso over there. Try to understand how espresso works over there. Here in the US, drinking espresso is for whatever reason seen as this upper class elitist thing - as if you drink your espresso while eating caviar and talking about “the little people”. In Italy, it’s just coffee. Gas stations, lunch counters, anywhere in the US where you can get a big gulp of coffee, in Italy you get espresso. It fast, cheap, and above all unbelievably good. Everywhere. Getting very good espresso in the US is difficult at best – you have to live in a major city and know of a café that has a very expensive, Italian made espresso machine and has people that know how to use it properly. In Italy, this can be found literally everywhere you go – gas stations beside the Autostrada, small little mountain towns, anywhere.

So we get back from 2 weeks in espresso nirvana, and I make myself a cup in my Saeco. I take one sip, pour it down the drain, and start shopping for something to duplicate what I had in Italy. As if the trip itself didn’t cost me enough. I quickly learned that good espresso is an expensive and involved affair.

When you go to Italy, or even a good espresso café here in the US, take note of their machine. Most likely it is some very large, very expensive thing like this (http://www.zoostores.com/shop/catalog/product/view/id/496999/s/la-marzocco-la-marzocco-linea-3-group-espresso-machine-espresso-machine.html?lp&cat=497&utm_source=Google_Base&utm_medium=CSEs&utm_term=www.zoostores.com&utm_campaign=la-marzocco-la-marzocco-linea-3-group-espresso-machine-espresso-machine&utm_content=Espresso%20Machines&mr:trackingCode=A50F2061-86A5-E111-9312-001B21A69EB8&mr:referralID=NA&origin=pla&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad=11926720023&mr:keyword=%7bkeyword%7d). It turns out that good espresso takes the right equipment to make, and that equipment costs money. Lots of it, in fact.

[Jazzbass]

Espresso 101
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The basic concept is simple: push water under pressure through a puck of finely ground, tightly packed coffee. This can be done in 30s and doing it properly will extract oils, solids, etc. from the coffee. Simple, right? Well, in theory. In practice, the pressure has to consistent to extract properly. The grind of the coffee has to be consistent, too, along with the packing of the puck. If it isn’t, the water under pressure will create a fissure. When that happens, instead of the water being forced through the coffee evenly and extracting consistently, it will follow the path of least resistance (the fissure) and flow through very fast. This is called “channeling” and will result in a weak, bitter and undrinkable shot. If you decide to make your own espresso at home, this will happen to you at first. A lot. Regardless of the machine you buy.

Espresso is also annoyingly picky about the temperature of the water you use. Every espresso blend you buy will have a specific extraction temperature that is needs. Too high and the shot is sour. Too low and its bitter. Or vice-versa – I always get that confused. Point is, temperature stability is very important to making good espresso – the water during the extraction process needs to be a consistent temperature in the correct range. The better machines do a much better job of maintaining a consistent temperature.

If all of this sounds like a gigantic pain in the ass, that’s because it is. Real baristas in Italy and at good cafes in the US train for weeks to be able to do this stuff correctly. However, if you have had good tasting espresso and like it, it’s worth it. If espresso is something you can take or leave, making it at home is not for you. For your own sake, I recommend you stop reading this thread right here. You've been warned.

[Jazzbass]

Blah blah blah – what do I buy?
To make espresso, you’ll need the following: machine, grinder, tamper, and coffee beans (duh). We’ll start with the machines – there are four main classes that most deal with (I’m going to leave out the manual level type machines and the super-duper all in one automatics because I don’t know anything about them, and they’re not great introductory machines).

When discussing machines, there are usually two operations you consider – pulling shots (extraction) and steaming milk. The steaming aspect is important if you make a lot of cappuccinos or lattes.

Steam Driven Machines
The first kind of machine is the bottom of the line steam-pressure based machines like this (http://www.amazon.com/Capresso-303-01-Espresso-Cappuccino-Machine/dp/B001QTVXCI/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1343943437&sr=8-8&keywords=espresso+machine). These are the 924s of the espresso machine world. If you enjoy espresso in any way, shape or form forget that these exist. My comments above about how a good machine needs to be able to regulate temperature and pressure pretty precisely to make good espresso? These machine can do neither. These are often given as wedding gifts, stuffed in the basement and promptly forgotten about. On a scale of 1-10, these make shots in the 1 to 2 range.

SBDU pump machines
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Next up are the SBDU pump driven machines – the Boxsters and Caymans of the espresso machine world, if you will. SBDU means single boiler, dual use – the dual use is brewing and steaming milk. This was the first type of machine I had. These machines are adequate, although they can have a hard time with temperature stability based on their small size. Extract pressure control in these is a bit better because they use a mechanical pump instead of steam pressure.

You see two main types of these – the lower end versions are typically $200-$350, like the aforementioned Saeco Aroma. These have a pressurized portafiler (the thing that holds the coffee). This allows them to have less precise pressure control on the pump and makes them easier to use for the average user. They handle coffee that is not very fine or consistently ground (like most grinders, even burr grinders, produce). There’s not a lot of technique required – grind coffee somewhat fine, tamp lightly to fit it in the basket, and pull the shot. They typically have no adjustability in anything (pressure, temperature, etc) and will produce espresso that is consistent but not great – on a scale of 1-10, these are in the 3-4 range. All that said, I had one of these for 2 years and used it almost every day. Lots of sugar to counteract the bitterness and you’re OK.

The higher end versions of these like the $600 Rancillio Silvia have better pressure control and use an unpressurized, single wall portafilter like the higher end machines. This allows them to make better espresso, but also means you are completely responsible for quality of the grind and for tamping correctly and consistently (something that is true for all the higher end machines except for full autos). The reward for the extra difficulty is better espresso – in the 5-6 range if done right (down to 0 if done wrong). If you really enjoy the taste of espresso, this is the first machine you should seriously consider.

One of the biggest drawback to these machines (in addition to the imprecise temperature control) is the single boiler - this is a problem when you want to steam milk. These machines use the same boiler to make the espresso as they do to steam the milk. Problem is, these two operations must be performed at very different temperatures. For espresso, the water needs to be around 197* F. For steaming milk, the water needs to be steam – i.e. 212* F. So what you do with these machines is heat the boiler up to brew temp (197), pull the shot, then flip a switch to heat the boiler up to steam temp (212), wait, then steam the milk. While you’re waiting your espresso is getting cold – not a good thing. If you want to make a second drink after that, you need to switch back to the brew temp, wait for it to cool down, etc. etc. Get impatient and brew at the wrong temp and your shot will be awful.

[Jazzbass]

Heat Exchanger (HX) Machines
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OK, now we’re getting serious – the 911s of the espresso machine world. If you drink espresso regularly (every day) this is where you should start looking. These machines usually start around $1500, and have very good thermal and pressure regulation characteristics due to the fact that they are usually a lot larger than the SBDU machines. Large boilers, large group heads for temperature stability, excellent pressure control. These machines have a single boiler that is used for steaming milk, and water for the brew cycle is passed through it in a separate tube to bring it up to brew temp. Since these machines are geared towards a higher end of the market, they typically have more advanced features like built in pressure/temp gauges and higher quality pumps, professional quality group heads, etc. Like the high end SBDU machines, these machines use unpressurized portafilters, so quality of the grind and tamping is on your shoulders.

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The drawback of these machines is they take some skill to manage the brew temperature correctly. Because the brew water is going through a heat exchanger against water at 212*, users of these machines will typically “temperature surf” (flush water through the group head) to get to the right temp. I’ve never had one of these machines, but people who have them say it becomes pretty easy. But you do have to keep a close eye on the brew temp gauge.

The advantage of these machines is that they are ready to steam immediately after the shot is pulled. So, if you’re making a cappuccino, you can pull the shot and as soon as that's done, steam the milk and have a drink ready in < one minute. On a SBDU machine, you pull the shot, flip the boiler into steam mode, wait, then steam. HX machines don’t require this, and making back to back drinks on them is a lot easier. On a scale of 1-10, these machines are capable of things in the 7-9 range. In other words, pretty damn good.

HX machines I’ve seen recommended are the Quick Mill Anita and the Izzo Alex II. Never used either, so I can’t comment on them.

Dual Boiler Machines
Welcome to the GT3s of the espresso machine world. Now you’re serious making little tiny 2 oz cups of coffee. The LaSpaziale S1 in my “Are you an engineer” thread is a popular dual boiler machine. These machines start around $2200 and go up to whatever you want to pay. The low end of these machines are small (relatively speaking – these are large machines for a kitchen appliance), single group machines that, in Italy, are usually used in a portable capacity for catering events. These machines are based on the same technology as the $15,000 commercial machines you see in every bar in Italy.

Basically, dual boiler machines completely segregate the brew process from the steam process. There is one boiler attached to the group head that used exclusively for brewing espresso. Most DB machines have some sort of configurable temperature regulation on this boiler, allowing you to set the brew temperature exactly where you want it and leave it there regardless of whether you want to steam milk or not. Since these are almost always high end machines, they have quality components like massive, heavy commercial grade group heads that have excellent thermal stability.

There is a second boiler for steaming milk that is regulated at 212* and usually around 1.2 bar of pressure. Unlike the other types of machines, both halves of the DB machine are completely independent and can be used at the same time. So unlike on HX machine where you first pull the shot and then steam the milk, on a DB machine you can do both at the same time.

The beauty of the DB machine is the ease of use and throughput. Set up the brew boiler how you want it, and use it – no thinking about whether the steam part was just in use, should I wait, etc. No switching modes, temp surfing, etc. Because both halves are independent, there’s no switching and recovery is fast. On a machine like mine, if entertaining, the only limiting factor on how fast I can serve espressos or cappuccinos is how fast I can make them. Another thing that's only possible on these type of machines is you can shut down the steam boiler if you're not using it to conserve power. Yeah, minor advantage, but still there. On a scale of 1 -10, these machines sit at the top – they can make espressos in the 8-10+ range. Yeah, you're allowed to go above 10. It's my scale, and I say it's allowed.

The popular entry level DB machines are the LaSpaziale Vivaldi (this is what I have) and the Izzo Alex Duetto. Like I said before, in this category you can pay as much as you want. $2300 merely pocket change to you? Check out a La Marzocco GS/3 (the gold standard of home machines) or my personal favorite based on aesthetics alone - the Speedster:

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[Jazzbass]

Grinder
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Buying an expensive espresso machine and pairing it with a cheap grinder is like buying a GT3 and putting on a set of the cheapest $20 a wheel PepBoys brand street tires – and then wondering why guys in 944s like HoodPin are passing you on the track.

Everyone that wants an espresso machine, once they get over the shock of how much these stupid things cost, accepts that they need to spend at least $600 for something decent. For people used to buying $49 drip coffee makes, this is a lot of money. So it’s not surprising when cost cutting time comes, they try to do it with the grinder. This is always a mistake. The fineness and consistency of the coffee grind is probably the most important factor to getting good espresso from any of the machines with an unpressurized portafilter. More important than the temperature stability. To get a good, fine, consistent grind, you need a good grinder. Good = expensive. Sorry. Blade type grinders need not apply.

On good grinders, the larger the burrs the better the grind quality. There are some small grinder that can do OK, but you see comment after comment from the people that have done this a lot that they can get better espresso out of a cheaper SBDU machine with a good Mazzer grinder than they can with an expensive dual boiler machine with a cheap grinder.

Espresso-only grinders are the best. Machines that can do ranges from French press to espresso are like brake pads for use on the street and track – they typically do neither well, despite what some people insist to the contrary. There are (sort of) some exceptions – the Baratza Vario is said to be one of these (I had one for a week and returned it – didn’t care for it). But be aware - the Vario is at the low end of the “good” grinders, and it costs $450. That should tell you something about what a good grinder runs. Without one, however, you might as well not even bother. Seriously.

I personally like the Mazzer line. These are the defacto standard when it comes to espresso grinders. If you’ve ever been to a real espresso bar in Italy, you’ve seen one of these sitting next to almost every single machine. They are more expensive, built like tanks and virtually indestructible. They are all commercial quality, and the price reflects that - new they start around $630 and go up to $3000 or so for the large ones.

While $600+ for a grinder is a lot, there is a trick you can use to save some money. Because they’re so ubiquitous, Mazzer grinders are actually pretty easy to find used. I’ve seen a $700 Mazzer sell on eBay for < $300 and all it needed was a new set of $40 grinding burrs. Used is the way to go with these.

Coffee
The final thing to consider in this stupid pursuit of good tasting espresso are the coffee beans themselves. Fresh coffee is a must – as coffee ages it dries out. Once it’s dried past a certain point (typically 10-14 days) it’s pretty much unusable for espresso. You simply can’t get a decent extraction out of it - trust me, I've BTDT. Want to know one of the reasons coffee in Italy is so good? Same reason the bread is good and the gelato is good – it’s delivered fresh almost every day.

So, to get good espresso with a higher end machine (any of the unpressurized ones), fresh coffee is a must. This means grocery store and Starbucks beans are out – they’re simply too old. Roasting your own is an option, but that’s a lot like work. The best solution is to order from one of the small custom roasters who roast and ship almost daily. These guys will actually stamp the roast date on the bag, so you know exactly how old the beans really are. Try finding that at Starbucks.

Some good roasters I’ve used are:
- Counter Culture Coffee
- Redbird Coffee
- Paradise Coffee

[Jazzbass]

Recommendations
If you’ve made it this far, you must either be some sort of masochist or have a legitimate interest in this. Let’s assume the latter. I have two recommendations based on your needs/desires:

Espresso n00b
You’ve had espresso of and on, maybe even a good cup here are there. Not sure if it’s something you’ll drink every day. You go to Starbucks maybe once a week or so.

Grinder: used Mazzer Mini from eBay with new burrs
Machine: high end SBDU like a Rancillio Silvia

I like the SBDU machine over the higher end ones because it IS possible to get a good drinkable shot out of them, for half the price. If you don’t know if this is going to be something you really get in to, then this is the cheapest machine that will get you to something that is worth it.

Espresso lover
You’ve been to Italy. You know what good espresso tastes like. You want to make that at home. Maybe you have a cheaper machine and simply can’t get the quality out of it.

Grinder: used Mazzer Super Jolly or larger from eBay with new burrs
Machine: double boiler machine like a LaSpaziale Vivaldi or an Izzo Alex Duetto.

For my money, the HX machines aren’t worth it. Relatively speaking, they’re not that much cheaper than a dual boiler machine, and the DB machines are just so much easier to use and so much more consistent. If you’re looking at spending $1700 on a HX machine, you’re pretty serious about this. That means that you’ll get it, use it for a while, but you’ll always have upgrading in the back of your mind. Skip the HX and go straight to the DB machine. If you’re not serious about it, the HX machine is too much, and stick to a cheaper SBDU machine.

Conclusion
If you made it this far, congratulations. I will say this, however - as long and boring as this was, it is really just a brief overview of the home espresso world. There are board like this set up where they do nothing all day but hash and rehash the same topics re: making espresso. Much like we do with "which brake pads are the best" and "which lap timer". The two biggest boards I've seen for espresso are:

http://www.home-barista.com/
http://coffeegeek.com/

I have spent a lot of time reading both to learn, and I have found that so far, there is not a single question regarding espresso that they haven't discussed already. Search in their archives is your friend. Its a lot like buying your first old 911 and going to Pelican Parts Forums - every question you have at that point has been answered at least 5 times already.

[Charlie Stylianos]

Nice write-up, Chris.

Give Strange Coffee Company (http://strangecoffeecompany.bigcartel.com/)a try. They are a local roaster here in SWVA and will deliver via USPS Priority. Russell is good people and he is as OCD about his roasting as we are about these cars......seriously.

[BlackTalon]

HoF material here -- great write-up.

Agree 100% about going for the DB over a HX, unless they never need to make any drinks with steamed milk.

[Dr K]

Very interesting, Chris. All that for the cost of 3 sets of HoHos. I agree about quality. When I was in Italy (visiting friends in veterinary school in Parma), they ticketed drivers who got to the next toll booth on the Autostrada too quickly, so drivers would drive fast, and stop at the rest areas for a cup of (excellent, 15-cent) expresso.

Inside information on Starbucks (the Maid of Honor at my wedding was a coffee roaster at Starbucks through the 1980's - she was there when Starbucks was small and local, and when they went commercial and national). The 3 founders had learned the trade from Alfred Peet (Peet's Coffee) and learned to roast high-quality beans very slowly to make rich coffee. Unfortunately, that time-consuming process produces beans that are light, so it takes more of these slowly-produced beans to make up a pound. When Starbucks went commercial they knew that wasn't a good business plan, so they began roasting the coffee using hotter temperatures. That roasted the beans faster (at least the outside of the beans) so they were heavier and took less time to produce, but the outside of the beans is "burned" giving that "unique" Starbucks taste. Peet's still roasts slowly for their stores (which you can get in the San Francisco area or mail-order) but I don't know if the packages available locally are produced as carefully - they are certainly not as fresh, and we're not talking expresso.

[Helios59]

Great thread! We have good friends from Trieste who like espresso, but they do it on the stovetop...they say they always make it this way at home, and I've had one of my own for 30 years.

You don't get much crema, but the flavor is there and it's convenient. And cheap.


http://www.greenmountaincoffee.com/Content/ProdImages/09-equipment-stovetop-espresso-maker-lg.jpg

[LPM911]

Great thread! We have good friends from Trieste who like espresso, but they do it on the stovetop...they say they always make it this way at home, and I've had one of my own for 30 years.

You don't get much crema, but the flavor is there and it's convenient. And cheap.


http://www.greenmountaincoffee.com/Content/ProdImages/09-equipment-stovetop-espresso-maker-lg.jpg

moar details on this stovetop thing. sounds like it'd be difficult to control all the variables Jazz mentioned.

[BlackTalon]

Lane, we have 3-4 of them here (various sizes) if you want to borrow one and give it a try. The "espresso" it makes is down in the 1-3 rating range. Usually used with preground coffeee. It's more like a percolator then an espresso machine. You unscrew the top 'pitcher', fill the bottom partially w/ water, insert a 'filter' and fill w/ grounds, then screw on the pitcher. Then you boil it on the stovetop, and the steam goes up through the grounds and into the pitcher. It should be noted it does not actually produce espresso, although many use that term.

[HoodPin]

Jazz's writeup is excellent and informative (despite the disparaging 944 comment... :roll:).

I have a stove top brewer that I've tried to learn to use. Musa version from the link below:

http://www.bialettishop.com/EspressoMakerMainPageStainlessSteel.htm

It makes a decent espresso, but not top grade. I'm still learning to brew with it. I do it for a while, and then put it away for a while.

I also use a Capresso conical burr grinder; Infinity Model. Not too expensive, but seems to do a nice job. I use to grind beans for our drip maker, too.

http://www.capresso.com/prod_grinders.html

I think the age of the beans I use may be a big problem; I know they're not that fresh. I may try ordering some "dated" beans to see the difference.

Anyone here familiar with using a Nespresso machine? http://www.nespresso.com/us/en/

Its a pod based system. Had a cup at a friend's house, and it was a surprisingly nice brew. Maybe not a "10" on the hard core scale, but IMHO a 6 or better. Cost of pods may be a bit more, but it would take a lot of pods to offset the $2K+ investment of a proper home barrista setup.

[LPM911]

never had the nespresso, but never been terribly impressed with the k-cup coffee makers. it'll get me by and it is quite convenient, but the french press always tastes better. probably the largest variable there is that I tend to have high quality beans for the french press, k-cup choices are bit more limited. so might be more of an apples to bananas than apples to apples.

[HoodPin]

Lane, we have 3-4 of them here (various sizes) if you want to borrow one and give it a try. The "espresso" it makes is down in the 1-3 rating range. Usually used with preground coffeee. It's more like a percolator then an espresso machine. You unscrew the top 'pitcher', fill the bottom partially w/ water, insert a 'filter' and fill w/ grounds, then screw on the pitcher. Then you boil it on the stovetop, and the steam goes up through the grounds and into the pitcher. It should be noted it does not actually produce espresso, although many use that term.

When I use mine, it makes a much stronger brew than regular coffee. It makes either 2 shots (if I'm sharing with Cindy; she'll add creamer, etc), or 1 cup just for me :D.

I thought since the water is steaming through at pressure, its close to an espresso brew, as opposed to gravity dripping the water through the grounds. I've also found it makes a better cup if the stove flame is higher; heats/pressurizes the water faster. I've been taking it off the flame as soon as the crema starts frothing from the pipe. I found if I leave on till the reservoir is completely emptied, the brew tastes more burnt. Maybe there's a "best" time limit to use before taking it off the flame?

[vranko]

Jazz, thanks for the great write-up. I make/drink espresso daily but never new all the nuances of the technology and process.

Anyone tried an AeroPress? I've seen quite a lot of buzz about it on tech blogs/forums. This isn't an espresso maker but I've considered getting one and giving it a try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroPress

[LPM911]

Jazz, thanks for the great write-up. I make/drink espresso daily but never new all the nuances of the technology and process.

Anyone tried an AeroPress? I've seen quite a lot of buzz about it on tech blogs/forums. This isn't an espresso maker but I've considered getting one and giving it a try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroPress

given the price, its not exactly a large investment to give it a whirl...

[Jazzbass]

Great thread! We have good friends from Trieste who like espresso, but they do it on the stovetop...they say they always make it this way at home, and I've had one of my own for 30 years.

You don't get much crema, but the flavor is there and it's convenient. And cheap.

Ah yes - the Moka pot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_Express). I figured this one would come up, especially because here in the US almost everyone I know calls them espresso makers. So first I'll be pedantic - these don't make espresso. Similar yes, but not the same.

Espresso is a brewing method: forcing hot water at high pressure (9 bar) through coffee to extract the flavor. Moka pots use steam pressure (1.5 bar) to brew a very strong drink that is something between drip coffee and espresso. The Italians that I know call it "moka" (not "caffe", which is what they call espresso), and the flavor is quite different. I suck at describing things like taste so I wont even try, but to me the difference is smoothness. Real espresso, made properly, is incredibly smooth and easy to drink. Moka has an edge to it like regular coffee.

That's not to say that it's not good. Moka coffee can be quite enjoyable. These are very popular in Italy, and on my last trip there I stayed with my (soon to be) sister-in-law's family. Her mother made us moka after every meal, and it was good. She mixed up a combination of sugar and something else (not sure what) and the result was a very sweet after dinner coffee.

[HoodPin]

I think I'm starting to get it.

Coffee = FEWC

Moka = REWC

Espresso = REAC

:D

[LPM911]

I think I'm starting to get it.

Coffee = FEWC

Moka = REWC

Espresso = REAC

:D

finally terms I can understand!!! :lol:

[vranko]

given the price, its not exactly a large investment to give it a whirl...

Agree, I've just been to lazy to buy one and give it a try. :(

[jbailey930]

well documented, Chris, a very informative read. Having recently been to Greece, I was discussing upping my coffee game and a friend recommended Jura
http://www.amazon.com/Jura-13531-Impressa-Automatic-Coffee/dp/B00330QVLG/ref=sr_1_3?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1344027873&sr=1-3
I was until then unaware of 4 figure home makers but at $2 to $3/day x 3-5 days a week at Sbucks offsets this in year 1. thx

[BlackTalon]

John, super-autos really are the 'compromise' setup of grinders/ espresso machines. There are only 6 steps to the grinder -- which really is pretty poor (stepless is best), the burrs are smaller then on a good stand-alone grinder, you can't easily vary the grams of beans used, etc., etc., etc.

[LPM911]

John, super-autos really are the 'compromise' setup of grinders/ espresso machines. There are only 6 steps to the grinder -- which really is pretty poor (stepless is best), the burrs are smaller then on a good stand-alone grinder, you can't easily vary the grams of beans used, etc., etc., etc.

saw some of the new Jura models in the store while xmas shopping. this one really stood out, if only because of the price. are these still a compromise? at $6k seems to be awfully pricey for compromising. there were some $2k machines that were offered as well. I'm curious how they stack up to other espresso makers.

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-1049865/Jura-GIGA-5-Automatic-Coffee-Center

[BlackTalon]

This is a joke, right?

Stay away from full-auto machines that are grinders and brewers all in one.

If you want a decent setup, follow the following:

1. Pick out the best grinder you can afford.

2. Suck it up and buy the grinder that you can't afford instead, as you'll be happier with it in the long run.

3. Find a decent 2 boiler semi-auto brewer in the $2k range.

For less then $3k you will have a setup that runs circles around the Jura, and will not become a $6k paperweight in a couple years when something breaks on it.

[LPM911]

ok, no more trying to skimp by and go for convenience. :)

[Jazzbass]

This is a joke, right?

Stay away from full-auto machines that are grinders and brewers all in one.

If you want a decent setup, follow the following:

1. Pick out the best grinder you can afford.

2. Suck it up and buy the grinder that you can't afford instead, as you'll be happier with it in the long run.

3. Find a decent 2 boiler semi-auto brewer in the $2k range.

For less then $3k you will have a setup that runs circles around the Jura, and will not become a $6k paperweight in a couple years when something breaks on it.

Not much I can add to that. $3k gets you a setup good enough to be limited only by your own incompetence as a barista.

[super90]

saw some of the new Jura models in the store while xmas shopping. this one really stood out, if only because of the price. are these still a compromise? at $6k seems to be awfully pricey for compromising. there were some $2k machines that were offered as well. I'm curious how they stack up to other espresso makers.

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-1049865/Jura-GIGA-5-Automatic-Coffee-Center

I have a Jura Capresso, it's very easy to use and makes a very nice espresso at the press of a button. Money well spent.

[Trak Ratt]

Seriously, what the story here? I was at a friend’s house last night and he has what (?) $4K+ wrapped up in a special high end grinder, boiler, even imported beans! But could I get one those stupid little cups of joe? Hell no!!! Finally offered some of the store bought stuff! But really???? My son could make an acceptable pot of 8 O’clock coffee when he was 10!!! All that gear and supposed hard to learn “technique” and still he can’t produce a cup on (polite) demand :roll:

[tdatk]

Seriously, what the story here? I was at a friend’s house last night and he has what (?) $4K+ wrapped up in a special high end grinder, boiler, even imported beans! But could I get one those stupid little cups of joe? Hell no!!! Finally offered some of the store bought stuff! But really???? My son could make an acceptable pot of 8 O’clock coffee when he was 10!!! All that gear and supposed hard to learn “technique” and still he can’t produce a cup on (polite) demand :roll:

X's 2 :lol:

[Jazzbass]

Seriously, what the story here? I was at a friend’s house last night and he has what (?) $4K+ wrapped up in a special high end grinder, boiler, even imported beans! But could I get one those stupid little cups of joe? Hell no!!! Finally offered some of the store bought stuff! But really???? My son could make an acceptable pot of 8 O’clock coffee when he was 10!!! All that gear and supposed hard to learn “technique” and still he can’t produce a cup on (polite) demand :roll:
Funny story - I was also at a friend's house the other evening and got a great cup of espresso simply by asking for it. Weird how our friends are so totally different, huh?

[BlackTalon]

I believe pretty much all coffee beans we make coffee with here in the US are imported.

[Trak Ratt]

Funny story - I was also at a friend's house the other evening and got a great cup of espresso simply by asking for it. Weird how our friends are so totally different, huh?Yeah, that's obviously :lol:
I believe pretty much all coffee beans we make coffee with here in the US are imported.
While true as stated, it's just a tad bit simplified... :roll: