Good Track Brake Pads Which Don't Squeal Too Much?

[CanAm]

The Glen finished off the stock front brake pads in our Cayman R, so we replaced them with a spare set of Hawks which somebody at the DE had handy. The Hawks have far better bite than the stock pads, and I generally like them better than the stock pads, but their squeal is incredibly loud on the street, to the extent that they're effectively unstreetable.

I'd appreciate recommendations regarding track pads which don't squeal excessively on the street.

[BlackTalon]

Please try a search, as there are quite a few threads on this already.

But really there are no effective track pads that will not squeal. So if you want quiet on the street, you will need a set of street pads and a set of track pads.

[CanAm]

Please try a search, as there are quite a few threads on this already.

But really there are no effective track pads that will not squeal. So if you want quiet on the street, you will need a set of street pads and a set of track pads.

Thanks, I'll do some searching. By the way, the pads are Hawk HT-10s.

[HoodPin]

As David suggested, search is your friend.

But fundamentally, most street pads designed for noise free and low dust, are just not capable of withstanding the rigors of high speed, repeated stops (= lots of heat!). I've seen a set of new street pads that were down to the backing plate after 3 hard sessions on the track.

Track pads are designed for the abuse of track driving. Part of this is withstanding the heat, and why they seem to do well and stay quiet when used on the track. But then at slower speeds, they don't get hot enough to work properly, and they tend to squeak. In fact, I'm actually amazed at how well modern track pads will stop nowadays at street speeds. When I ran my 240Z back in the '80's, the track pads (Ferodo's) were great on the track, but were literally unsafe for street driving. When cold, they had almost no stopping power. First lap on track was spent dragging the brake in order to warm them up.

As far as dust, I guess it has something to do with the material composition needed to make them effective at high-temp/abusive conditions. I've yet to see a decent track pad that keeps your wheels/car clean.

[BlackTalon]

FWIW, I run HT-10s now, and they squeal less then the Pagid Orange pads I used to use.

[spiffyjiff]

what's wrong with squealing like a city bus? i love that sound - it means i'm headed to the track! :twisted:

[CanAm]

what's wrong with squealing like a city bus? i love that sound - it means i'm headed to the track! :twisted:

Problem is that it squeals like ten city buses. :oops:

[APKhaos]

Listen to Hoodpin.

Pads that work well on the street are soft and silent, pads that work on the track are harder and NEED to be hot to work properly. While street pads are OK for the first days of green, they won't survive once you start using the brakes on track.
Resign yourself to having both street and track pads.
FWIW, I drove to every event for two seasons on R comp rubber with track pads. Its hard to sneak out of a hotel carpark early when the brakes squeal like a banshee.

[Baywatch]

I remember the quiet days of street tires and pads. My 888's and Pagid yellows combined drove me nuts. Switched to RA1's, but I am still looking for a silent brake pad. Irfan, If you find any keep us up to date.

[BlackTalon]

It will be quicker to age to the point where you lose your high frequency hearing. If you find track pads that don't squeal during street use before that time it will be a Christmas miracle.

[John Clay]

It will be quicker to age to the point where you lose your high frequency hearing. If you find track pads that don't squeal during street use before that time it will be a Christmas miracle.

X2 - what is wrong with you people???? It's just noise.

[Vicegrip]

Listen to Hoodpin.

Pads that work well on the street are soft and silent, pads that work on the track are harder and NEED to be hot to work properly. While street pads are OK for the first days of green, they won't survive once you start using the brakes on track.
Resign yourself to having both street and track pads.
FWIW, I drove to every event for two seasons on R comp rubber with track pads. Its hard to sneak out of a hotel carpark early when the brakes squeal like a banshee.It is not out of the hotel parking lot that you need to worry about it is into the home driveway a bit later that causes issues ;)

[BillC]

You should consider swapping pads between track events. One set for street driving and one set for track driving. Swapping pads on your CR is quite easy (guess how I know.... :lol: ) -- jacking up the car and removing/reinstalling the wheels takes longer than the pad swaps.

But, the short of it is that you're not going to find a good track pad that's also quiet on the street. You might find some compromise pads that are okay on the track and not too noisy on the street, but that won't be a long-term solution as you and your wife improve on the track.

[CanAm]

You should consider swapping pads between track events. One set for street driving and one set for track driving. Swapping pads on your CR is quite easy (guess how I know.... :lol: ) -- jacking up the car and removing/reinstalling the wheels takes longer than the pad swaps.

But, the short of it is that you're not going to find a good track pad that's also quiet on the street. You might find some compromise pads that are okay on the track and not too noisy on the street, but that won't be a long-term solution as you and your wife improve on the track.

Do you know of any decent compromise pads? Even a compromise pad would hopefully last a lot longer than the stock pads and have tolerable fade, given that our sessions are usually less than 35 minutes.

We could do the pad swapping, but we're trying to focus our time and energy on improving/enjoying our driving rather than equipment stuff.

Definitely can't stay with stock pads for the track, since they don't last long and seriously lack bite.

[smdubovsky]

I've run both Porterfields R4S (S=street) and R4. The R4S is a step up from stock for sure and pretty damn good street characteristics (even low dust!). Ran them on the vw, boxster, and some other friends have used on bmws and 996. They wore VERY fast on the Mcoupe at the track - I think they didn't like getting that hot on those little brakes. The R4 is quiet, but dusts like HELL and is hard on rotors. Tracked & DD'd them on the jetta for quite some time.

Hawk makes a compromise pad (HPS?) as does PFC. Just going to have to pick one and see if you like it. Its like picking a beer. Individual (and cars) tastes vary. Try them until you find one you like. Not like they last forever;)

[tdatk]

I've run both Porterfields R4S (S=street) and R4. The R4S is a step up from stock for sure and pretty damn good street characteristics (even low dust!). Ran them on the vw, boxster, and some other friends have used on bmws and 996. They wore VERY fast on the Mcoupe at the track - I think they didn't like getting that hot on those little brakes. The R4 is quiet, but dusts like HELL and is hard on rotors. Tracked & DD'd them on the jetta for quite some time.

Hawk makes a compromise pad (HPS?) as does PFC. Just going to have to pick one and see if you like it. Its like picking a beer. Individual (and cars) tastes vary. Try them until you find one you like. Not like they last forever;)

I found that the Hawk HPS were a good compromise pad recommended by Tony P in a search.

[BobNovas]

Talk to Paul Weston, Weston Motorsports, and see what he recommends. He's a straight up guy and a club member.

[Manny Alban]

I guess I'm lucky. I've been tracking since 1996 and have never had an issue with brake noise. I've tried pretty much every pad out there.

On my street car, I bought a set of metallic pads and they started making noise from day one. Was driving me nuts. I went to the auto parts store and got a brake caliper lubricant and stopped the noise immediately. It's been 5K miles since I put it on.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/CRC-8-oz-226-796-g-brake-and-caliper-synthetic-grease/_/N-268d?itemIdentifier=826455_0_0_

[racer]

I should just bite my lip but I can't.. that hurts..

Track Use + TWO driver = Track pad

Brake pads are so easy to change on the new cars its not funny. Besides, once you start swapping wheels ( ;) ) whats another 15 minutes to change pads?

[Trak Ratt]

Ask this guy;

magnetic1 = Wonger
http://www.brakeswap.com (http://www.brakeswap.com)

He knows a thing or 2 about brake pads too ;)

[JmuRiz]

I'd just run a set for track travel and run another at the track. I have hawk HPS pads, but I've only done an HPDE, not real track-day stuff.

[CanAm]

I just had a look at Hawk's website and I see that they have a spectrum of pad types and agressiveness.

Racing: http://www.hawkperformance.com/motorsports/applications/gt.php

Performance street: http://www.hawkperformance.com/performance/

Looking at this info, the HT-10s do seem to be towards the aggressive end of the spectrum. And the HPS looks like a potentially good compromise pad, but I'd like to see what Pagid and others have to offer also.

[CanAm]

I'd just run a set for track travel and run another at the track. I have hawk HPS pads, but I've only done an HPDE, not real track-day stuff.

Are the HPS noisy on the street? How's their bite compared to the stock pads you've had?

[Dr K]

Paul Weston put me on Kurve Friction as a compromise pad about 11 years ago - but you have a very different car. I'd ask Paul and also Eric (magnetic1) and see if they have one they agree on. Both GREAT guys, and fair. Eric is a BMW guy, but okay anyway.

[tdatk]

Eric is a BMW guy, but okay anyway.

Hey Now, careful there.:lol:
Eric is at http://www.brakeswap.com/

[arob]

If nobody has mentioned it yet, visit www.brakeswap.com

Eric is an okay guy. :)

BTW - I run PFCs on my 911.

[HoodPin]

Are the HPS noisy on the street? How's their bite compared to the stock pads you've had?

We actually used the Hawk HPS pads for a while initially. They were a decent compromise pad, and did well at most DE's. But we discovered that braking was too intense for them at Watkins Glen; lots of high speed braking zones. But at other tracks, a set would easily last the entire weekend. Not noisy and not dusty. But the braking level is not as good as a true track pad.

[John Clay]

I've run both Hawk HPS and HPplus. I found HPS to be a good/quiet street pad with strong initial bite if you prefer that characterstic for autox. I don't recall ever tracking the HPS.

HPplus were crazy noisy on the street, but stopped well at low temperatures. For me, they were adequate at the track on the 944, but not adequate on the 96 328is. I currenty have PFC 97's on the 944 which are actually a lot quieter on the street than the HPplus, but the dust is hard to live with.

[CanAm]

We actually used the Hawk HPS pads for a while initially. They were a decent compromise pad, and did well at most DE's. But we discovered that braking was too intense for them at Watkins Glen; lots of high speed braking zones. But at other tracks, a set would easily last the entire weekend. Not noisy and not dusty. But the braking level is not as good as a true track pad.

Wow, just one weekend! Sounds like the HPS won't cut it for me, given the number of track days I have in mind. And even at Summit main, we come into Turns 1, 5 and 10 at around 100 or more, so fairly heavy braking there too.

[CanAm]

I've run both Hawk HPS and HPplus. I found HPS to be a good/quiet street pad with strong initial bite if you prefer that characterstic for autox. I don't recall ever tracking the HPS.

HPplus were crazy noisy on the street, but stopped well at low temperatures. For me, they were adequate at the track on the 944, but not adequate on the 96 328is. I currenty have PFC 97's on the 944 which are actually a lot quieter on the street than the HPplus, but the dust is hard to live with.

I'm doing both track and autox, but track is my higher priority. If the HP Plus are crazy noisy anyway, I'd probably be better off staying with the HT-10s, since they seem strong enough on the street and great on the track (strong bite, but not hard to modulate). But I'll take a look at the PFC 97 also, since I don't mind dust as much as noise.

Does anyone know whether Pagid has decent compromise pads? Basically, I'm looking for a proper track pad with a tolerable level of squeal - doesn't have to be silent, just tolerable. In other words, a toned down track pad rather than an enhanced street pad.

[N Fotouhi]

Wow, just one weekend! Sounds like the HPS won't cut it for me, given the number of track days I have in mind. And even at Summit main, we come into Turns 1, 5 and 10 at around 100 or more, so fairly heavy braking there too.

With 2 drivers in beginner's group you should figure out a set of pads every two events. There are no quiet race pads. There are no street pads that last long on the track unless you drive at street speed.

Hawk HPS at street pads. HPS Plus are advertised as track day pads that can be used to drive to and from track.

Some here will say that they use the Pagid race pads on the street, but I have never been able to leave Pagid race pads on the car and not get the shudder due to pad deposit on the rotor when driven on the street. It is hard enough to bed them for track use.

Select a brand and stick with to develop your braking habits. I see guys change brands every 1-2 years based on what someone else says. Brake pads are like pillow, your results may vary.

[CanAm]

With 2 drivers in beginner's group you should figure out a set of pads every two events. There are no quiet race pads. There are no street pads that last long on the track unless you drive at street speed.

Hawk HPS at street pads. HPS Plus are advertised as track day pads that can be used to drive to and from track.

Some here will say that they use the Pagid race pads on the street, but I have never been able to leave Pagid race pads on the car and not get the shudder due to pad deposit on the rotor when driven on the street. It is hard enough to bed them for track use.

Select a brand and stick with to develop your braking habits. I see guys change brands every 1-2 years based on what someone else says. Brake pads are like pillow, your results may vary.

If even track pads won't last long, sounds like our best bet might be to keep the current pads (HT-10 front, stock in back) until they're done, then try something else next time and see how it goes.

Does anyone see a problem with brake balance resulting from the different pads front vs back?

[N Fotouhi]

If even track pads won't last long, sounds like our best bet might be to keep the current pads (HT-10 front, stock in back) until they're done, then try something else next time and see how it goes.

Does anyone see a problem with brake balance resulting from the different pads front vs back?

A lot of racers use different componds front and rear, but having race pads front and strrt pads rears is too differnt for my taste. You are spending way too much time on here. :D

[Vicegrip]

If even track pads won't last long, sounds like our best bet might be to keep the current pads (HT-10 front, stock in back) until they're done, then try something else next time and see how it goes.

Does anyone see a problem with brake balance resulting from the different pads front vs back?YES. This can cause all kinds of problems. One set can come on as the other set overheats and starts to boil off and ablate. You can end up with bias that changes while on track. Please see my avatar for results of improper brake bias.
People also tune braking systems by using different compounds front and rear. To do so with good results people tend to keep both sets in the same working heat range and tune via the torque ratings of the pad compound.

As said in the long run you will find that you will need to have street pads (work great when cold) for the street and track pads (work great when hot) for the track. Anything in the middle will leave you wanting when at ether end. Considering that all the driving is at ether end and you are back to 2 sets of pads. The good news is it is easy to swap pads back and forth once you have the basic tools and simple methods in hand.

[CanAm]

You are spending way too much time on here. :D

Much to learn, and need to do it quickly, given this frequency of tracking (will be at Summit again tomorrow)! We were lucky that someone had spare pads at WG and people helped us install them, otherwise the car would have been undrivable Sunday. And the problem came up suddenly - car passed pre-track tech and track tech on Friday with no problems, then all of a sudden the pad concern came up Saturday morning. :shock: Don't want to get caught unprepared like that again, especially 4+ hours from home.

[CanAm]

YES. This can cause all kinds of problems. One set can come on as the other set overheats and starts to boil off and ablate. You can end up with bias that changes while on track. Please see my avatar for results of improper brake bias.
People also tune braking systems by using different compounds front and rear. To do so with good results people tend to keep both sets in the same working heat range and tune via the torque ratings of the pad compound.

As said in the long run you will find that you will need to have street pads (work great when cold) for the street and track pads (work great when hot) for the track. Anything in the middle will leave you wanting when at ether end. Considering that all the driving is at ether end and you are back to 2 sets of pads. The good news is it is easy to swap pads back and forth once you have the basic tools and simple methods in hand.

Thanks for this cautionary input. We did get HT-10s for the rear at WG and will install them, so that we have HT-10s all around. When the fronts wear down, we'll figure out what to install next.

As far as switching pads for street and track, since we need to get tech inspections done anyway, maybe we can have the shop install the track pads and then I can reinstall the street pads once I learn how. When I was younger, I enjoyed working on cars and motorcycles, and it looks like I need to get back into it.

[John Clay]

But I'll take a look at the PFC 97 also, since I don't mind dust as much as noise.

Careful there - this is not your ordinary, easy to clean brake pad dust. If it gets wet, it is next to impossible to get off.

[CanAm]

Careful there - this is not your ordinary, easy to clean brake pad dust. If it gets wet, it is next to impossible to get off.

Duly noted, thanks.

[Vicegrip]

Thanks for this cautionary input. We did get HT-10s for the rear at WG and will install them, so that we have HT-10s all around. When the fronts wear down, we'll figure out what to install next.

As far as switching pads for street and track, since we need to get tech inspections done anyway, maybe we can have the shop install the track pads and then I can reinstall the street pads once I learn how. When I was younger, I enjoyed working on cars and motorcycles, and it looks like I need to get back into it. Plenty of folks around "here" that can show you how.

[HoodPin]

^ What he said.

Changing pads on most Porsches is very easy. Part of the "racing inspired" image, I guess, which includes pit stops. ;)

Last weekend, on Saturday morning, on my 944S2, I changed the front rotors, pads, and bled the calipers in about 1 hour. Pads alone would have been half of that.

[vranko]

^ What he said.

Changing pads on most Porsches is very easy. Part of the "racing inspired" image, I guess, which includes pit stops. ;)

Last weekend, on Saturday morning, on my 944S2, I changed the front rotors, pads, and bled the calipers in about 1 hour. Pads alone would have been half of that.

x2, If you don't count the time to take the wheels on and off it takes less than 10min!

Irfan, It took Tim more time because he also had to tie off the wear sensors since this was the first time you were putting track pads on your car. Also, Thanks Tim for helping with the change. I was suposed to do it but Tim was nice enough to start while I was on track.

[CanAm]

x2, If you don't count the time to take the wheels on and off it takes less than 10min!

Irfan, It took Tim more time because he also had to tie off the wear sensors since this was the first time you were putting track pads on your car. Also, Thanks Tim for helping with the change. I was suposed to do it but Tim was nice enough to start while I was on track.

Or maybe Tim's just a slow worker in general. :lol:

But seriously, many thanks to both of you for your help.

The pads were great on the track, and Annabelle had no difficulty adjusting to them either. Dan Dazzo also liked them a lot better than the stock pads.

[vranko]

Or maybe Tim's just a slow worker in general. :lol:

But seriously, many thanks to both of you for your help.

The pads were great on the track, and Annabelle had no difficulty adjusting to them either. Dan Dazzo also liked them a lot better than the stock pads.

Excellent. I'm glad it worked out. I also really liked them on our bedding run outside of the facility!

[Carrera51]

Performance Friction 08s are not that noisy on the street. I like them much better than the 97. Great overall pad. They are More rotor friendly and a very nice linear torque curve.

I was always too lazy to change back and forth between street and track pads. Performance Frictions were not as noisy as Pagid and Hawk when not up to temp. This was on my Carrera. I would not leave them on if the car is daily driver, but they are OK to and from the track. Dust will always be an issue with track pads. Some worse than others.

As far as using the Hawk HPS on the track. They aren't bad if you are a green group driver. If you are past that level, then you will find them lacking. Feel free to PM me if I can be of further assistance.

Kind regards,
Mark

[tdatk]

Or maybe Tim's just a slow worker in general. :lol:


I'd have been a lot quicker if you guys were not all huddled around debating the pro/cons of mixing pads and compounds....:p
Next time it's your turn on the pad swap and I'll hold the stopwatch.:D

[CanAm]

Performance Friction 08s are not that noisy on the street. I like them much better than the 97. Great overall pad. They are More rotor friendly and a very nice linear torque curve.

I was always too lazy to change back and forth between street and track pads. Performance Frictions were not as noisy as Pagid and Hawk when not up to temp. This was on my Carrera. I would not leave them on if the car is daily driver, but they are OK to and from the track. Dust will always be an issue with track pads. Some worse than others.

As far as using the Hawk HPS on the track. They aren't bad if you are a green group driver. If you are past that level, then you will find them lacking. Feel free to PM me if I can be of further assistance.

Kind regards,
Mark

I was just talking with Sloan at SSI about pads and tires, and he mentioned you as the expert on pads. He'll probably be giving you a call.

If I'm too lazy to swap track and street pads, Sloan agrees that PFs are good pads and much quieter than Hawks, while still good on the track and good enough for the street when cold. Would need to decide exactly which PF to get, if not the 08, but PF is the direction I'm currently leaning. I guess these are the options: http://www.performancefriction.com/Repository/Files/compound_descriptions_20101002.pdf

[Carrera51]

Irfan:
I am a huge fan of the 08 and the 06. I have gotten lots of positive feedback on the 08s when used on the 997 and 987 platforms. I've raced on the 06s in a Spec Box, the 01s on my former Carrera. The 01s have more initial torque and require a very sensitive foot to keep them out of the ABS or lockup, at least that is my own experience with them. The 06 and 08 are both rotor friendly and work right down to the minimum thickness. I've seen end users run them down to the backing plates, though I don't recommend stretching them that far.

[CanAm]

Irfan:
I am a huge fan of the 08 and the 06. I have gotten lots of positive feedback on the 08s when used on the 997 and 987 platforms. I've raced on the 06s in a Spec Box, the 01s on my former Carrera. The 01s have more initial torque and require a very sensitive foot to keep them out of the ABS or lockup, at least that is my own experience with them. The 06 and 08 are both rotor friendly and work right down to the minimum thickness. I've seen end users run them down to the backing plates, though I don't recommend stretching them that far.

It would be nice to have the same pads in our 997 and Cayman R. Between the 06 and 08, which do you think would be less noisy and better at colder temps on the street?

[Carrera51]

As far as noise when cold, they are about the same. Both are good. Is your 997 an "S" or standard model?

[CanAm]

As far as noise when cold, they are about the same. Both are good. Is your 997 an "S" or standard model?

The 911 is 997.2 C2S cab. Pretty little thing, but it will still have to serve track duty.

Sounds like maybe the PFC 08 is the way to go?

By the way, my wife and I were at your shop a couple of Saturdays ago, and Bill gave us a lot of good advice.

[Carrera51]

Yes, you will love the 08s. Plus we are the only one who has them for the C2S front calipers. Bill does know his stuff for sure.

[magnetic1]

I agree with Mark. 08s rock, especially if youre a DE guy.

Though I still think they will make noise and dust on street :)

[arob]

I agree with Mark. 08s rock, especially if youre a DE guy.

Though I still think they will make noise and dust on street :)

3rd on 08s. My wife and I shared a car at VIR with brand new 08s on them. After the event, I pulled them off and they STILL looked brand new. :p

[CanAm]

OK, 08s it is then. Will try them on the Cayman first, then also get them on the 911 if there are no issues. I'll get in touch with OG and/or SSI.

[ausgeflippt951]

Sorry to hijack:

Question for the 951 guys: do they make the 08 or 06 for our cars? I've run the Hawk Blues for a while now, but before that I was on 97's and Porterfield R4's. I would go back to the 97 but hate the brake dust issue -- super corrosive and cement-like when it gets wet.

The 08's or 06's sound like a great alternative!

[Carrera51]

Collin:
Yes, the 08s are available for the 951 from us since we had them specially made for the 944T, 930, 964 standard calipers which take an HB170 in Hawk and Pagid U1203.

Wonger, I am going to race on them if I ever finish getting Project 951 track ready. Hopefully will have it ready for the August NASA race.

[CanAm]

Took the 911 to Summit main today, and the stock brake pads sucked compared to the Hawk HT-10s we put in the Cayman. I'm fully convinced that stock brake pads don't cut it on the track. Very likely that we'll wind up with PFC 08s in both cars. Will try to use them on the street too, and if that doesn't work, pad swapping will be the way to go.

[BlackTalon]

Sweet -- only 57 posts until what we all said became reality :D

[LPM911]

Sweet -- only 57 posts until what we all said became reality :D

:lol:

[Trak Ratt]

Not that bad really. Think back. How many pages could TD dedicate to; “even though my car is ass end first in the WG tyre wall I didn’t turn in early” :p

[ausgeflippt951]

Collin:
Yes, the 08s are available for the 951 from us since we had them specially made for the 944T, 930, 964 standard calipers which take an HB170 in Hawk and Pagid U1203.

Wonger, I am going to race on them if I ever finish getting Project 951 track ready. Hopefully will have it ready for the August NASA race.


Thanks Mark! Great to hear. I just checked your website and noticed you have the 83 compound on sale. For about half what the 08 is going for. Is there any merit to considering this? IIRC it's a pretty aggressive pad from a wear standpoint, yes? Might just be cost effective (and 'sanity effective') to go with the 08 anyway.

Looking forward to the 08 -- been a long time coming for the 'fo-fo.

[Vicegrip]

IIRC 83 will cause you to hit you face on the steering wheel the first time you use them after they warm up. They are for the worst of the worst conditions such as Nascar short track.

[BlackTalon]

Don't overthink it -- they are a wear item, and will have a short life if you track the car. Pick a compound and give it a try. You'll need a new set before you know it, and you can try something else at that point if there are elements of the first set you did not like.

[ausgeflippt951]

IIRC 83 will cause you to hit you face on the steering wheel the first time you use them after they warm up. They are for the worst of the worst conditions such as Nascar short track.

Don't overthink it -- they are a wear item, and will have a short life if you track the car. Pick a compound and give it a try. You'll need a new set before you know it, and you can try something else at that point if there are elements of the first set you did not like.


Thanks guys. I've got about one more weekend's worth on the Hawk Blue's, so I'm looking forward to swapping. The Blues are OK, but I haven't been pleased with their feel characteristics they exhibit when they get near the end of their life. Don't inspire as much confidence as the '97's do.

[Trak Ratt]

Thanks guys. I've got about one more weekend's worth on the Hawk Blue's... but I haven't been pleased with their feel characteristics they exhibit when they get near the end of their life. Don't inspire as much confidence as the '97's do.I'd reread this again and then ask myself why I was waiting to replace. could just become your backup or just in case pads.

[HoodPin]

Thanks guys. I've got about one more weekend's worth on the Hawk Blue's, so I'm looking forward to swapping. The Blues are OK, but I haven't been pleased with their feel characteristics they exhibit when they get near the end of their life. Don't inspire as much confidence as the '97's do.

As pads wear, the remaining material works less well as a heat sink. A good rule of thumb for track driving has always been that the pad material should be more than the backing plate. As you get closer to that thickness, not only will the pads heat up more and work less, but they'll also wear faster. If say the backing plate thickness is twice the pad material, the 1st half will last much longer than the last half.

And x2 what TR says. We keep some used pads around for backup. Often re-sort thru the used pads and keep the 4 best ones as backup.

[CanAm]

As pads wear, the remaining material works less well as a heat sink. A good rule of thumb for track driving has always been that the pad material should be more than the backing plate. As you get closer to that thickness, not only will the pads heat up more and work less, but they'll also wear faster. If say the backing plate thickness is twice the pad material, the 1st half will last much longer than the last half.

And x2 what TR says. We keep some used pads around for backup. Often re-sort thru the used pads and keep the 4 best ones as backup.

I also noticed that with the stock pads, as they became thinner than the backing plate, the edges of the pads started to crumble away. Not a comforting sight! I don't know how track pads compare in this respect.

[BlackTalon]

I've had Hawk HT-10s crumble. Did not have that issue with Pagid Oranges. But the HT-10s only crumble when worn down a bit less then backing plate thickness (they start to overheat).

Please note that all track pads DO NOT behave in exactly the same way. About the only generalization you can make is that track pads will last longer and stop much better at track events then street pads.

[Vicegrip]

heat cycles take a toll on the pad materal.

[ausgeflippt951]

Thanks TR and Tony -- good advice. That's actually what I've more-or-less been doing over the last few years (building up a collection of almost-dead pads). I'm somewhat trying to limit this collection; So far I'm up to ~3 extra sets of race pads and ~5 sets of street pads! I'm sure that for some of you, that is chump change, but I'm currently trying to get rid of parts,not add... :D

[Dr K]

And x2 what TR says. We keep some used pads around for backup. Often re-sort thru the used pads and keep the 4 best ones as backup.
x3

I've had Hawk HT-10s crumble. Did not have that issue with Pagid Oranges. But the HT-10s only crumble when worn down a bit less then backing plate thickness (they start to overheat).

I had a single front HT-10 pad crumble at Mid-Ohio and it was almost new. Luckily I had spares. Brake caliper was fine, and new set did well without a caliper rebuild.

One other thing - very hot brake pads will wear your rotors more quickly.

[Trak Ratt]

...
And x2 what TR says. We keep some used pads around for backup. Often re-sort thru the used pads and keep the 4 best ones as backup.
Also, you can swap the inner and outer pad at each wheel to get a little more life out of them. I've alread been through the "what pad" process so have only spares of the ones I use. When I replace a set I simply compare those with my current spares and toss the ones with more wear. I already have enough “spare parts” I haul around with me. Don’t need several sets of "maybe good" anything ok except RA1s cause those suckers are goodest just before the cord shows all the way around the edges and the middle starts to bubble

[Landjet]

Has anyone seen a chart that compares the spectrum of race pad specs all in one place? Please post a link if you know of such a thing.

[BlackTalon]

Compares with respect to which attributes?

[Landjet]

All of them of course.

[Carrera51]

Collin:
Kurt summed up the PF83. They will stretch your eyeballs and they require a delicate application of the brake pedal. But man they do haul the car down quick. Down side is that they will wear the rotors faster than the newer compounds from PF, Pagid, Hawk etc. Plus side is that since they are a closeout item, the price can't be beat, and in a race, no one is going to out brake you.

[CanAm]

Just to update, we did put PFC08 (front) and PFC06 (rear) in the Cayman and have used them several days on the track.

I'm completely happy with their behavior on the track. Ample bite, relatively easy modulation, no evident fade, and they're not showing much wear so they should last a while.

On the street, sometimes they're quiet, sometimes they squeal a little, and sometimes they squeal a lot. But much quieter overall than than Hawk HT-10s. And their feel on the street is good - maybe a bit too much bite even when cold, but not a big deal. So I think we'll be sticking with these pads for both track and street use (too lazy to swap).

Now I need to upgrade the crappy stock pads in the 997.2 C2S (not even good enough for street use). That car will only see a few track days a year, so the thought is to get pads which are good for the street (better than the stock pads) and 'acceptable' for the track. From Pagid, the best options seem to be:

- Sport pads, http://www.pagidracing.com/sport.html, but not sure these are available for our particular 997

- RS 4-2-1 Black, http://www.pagidracing.com/racecharacteristics.html

From Performance Friction, all of their racing pads seem too aggressive for primarily street use, http://www.performancefriction.com/motorsports/brake-pads/compound-descriptions.aspx. They also have 'aftermarket' pads, but I'm not clear on what compounds are available, http://www.performancefriction.com/aftermarket/aftermarket-brake-pads.aspx.

I haven't ruled out Hawks, and I know that they have some 'compromise' pads, but my preference is Pagid or PF for now.

Any suggestions or experiences?

[Vicegrip]

You are in luck as this thread covered just this kind of thing. http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=28168

[Carrera51]

If the 997S will only be seeing a few track days a year, I'd get some PF08s for those days, and put the street pads back in for street driving.

On a car as heavy and will the kind of power a 997S puts down, an in between pad is going to be a huge comprise, especially now that you are used to the PFCs.

I bet Vicegrip would even be kind enough to teach you how to change out the pads. Once you get familiar with doing it, you can do all four corners in less than an hour.

[HoodPin]

You are in luck as this thread covered just this kind of thing. http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=28168

Me thinks he doth steal an idea or two from the land of RL. ;)

[Trak Ratt]

Just to update... WOW 200 posts in under 2 months AND a new "status"!!! Cool it's on a post almost exactly like the original one in that thread ;)

[CanAm]

If the 997S will only be seeing a few track days a year, I'd get some PF08s for those days, and put the street pads back in for street driving.

On a car as heavy and will the kind of power a 997S puts down, an in between pad is going to be a huge comprise, especially now that you are used to the PFCs.

I bet Vicegrip would even be kind enough to teach you how to change out the pads. Once you get familiar with doing it, you can do all four corners in less than an hour.

Sounds reasonable, but the thing is that I'm very unsatisfied with the stock street pads for street use, so they need to be upgraded anyway. I'm hoping that an upgraded street pad would suffice for occasional track use, especially since I don't intend to drive the 997 quite as hard as the Cayman (it's more expensive, a cab, want it to be a DD for many years, etc.).

[CanAm]

WOW 200 posts in under 2 months AND a new "status"!!! Cool it's on a post almost exactly like the original one in that thread ;)

But I probably still won't have over 21 thousand posts in 9 years. ;)

[HoodPin]

Now might be a good time. (http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=20912) ;)

[cmartin]

I don't intend to drive the 997 quite as hard as the Cayman

SO you want to take it to the track but go slow? Bigger, heavier car, more power. ARe you going to drive the car in green forever?

This thread is full of good pad advice. Changing pads on your car is dead simple. Brake pads are used up pretty quickly on the track, you'll have plenty of opportunities to figure out which brake pads you like.

[Vicegrip]

Apple address in CA......

[Trak Ratt]

But I probably still won't have over 21 thousand posts in 9 years. ;)LOL maybe but you have a great start on it!!!

[Carrera51]

My advice, keep the 997S for street use. Didn't realize it was a cab so I must have missed that in an earlier post. Since you have the Cayman R, no reason really to track the 997 Cab.

Hawk HPS (High Performance Street) pads are nice for street use, but still not really suited for the track.

[CanAm]

My advice, keep the 997S for street use. Didn't realize it was a cab so I must have missed that in an earlier post. Since you have the Cayman R, no reason really to track the 997 Cab.

Hawk HPS (High Performance Street) pads are nice for street use, but still not really suited for the track.

That's more or less the plan, but hard to have a 911 and never track it. Even if I drive it a tenth slower than the CR, it's still fun, and nice to be able to drive more than one car on the track.

Any thoughts or experience with these pads?

Pagid RS 4-2-1 Black
High Performance compound with low fading characteristics and high cold friction. The RS 4-2-1 is a most comfortable medium friction compound and very easy on the discs (rotors). Very popular for brake up grades or tuning. It is OE on various Super Sports Cars among others Aston Martin, Bugatti, Ferrari, Lamborgini, Lotus or McLaren. Suitable for street and light track use such as track days or driving education.

From the description, they sound like just what I need.

[roundel]

Don't Skimp on brakes. Get street pads and track pads. It really is that simple.

[blipshift]

I use Pagid Sports on my 997. They're a little noisier than regualar pads but perform fine for a DE every once in a while. For the casual trackster changing pads x2 for each event which may amaount to 2-4 a year is a PITA, as that time is better spent doing something else.

[Red911]

I like the Autozone brand brake pads because they come with a lifetime warranty. You take back the old ones and you get new ones for free. They don't make too much dust or noise either.

[CanAm]

I use Pagid Sports on my 997. They're a little noisier than regualar pads but perform fine for a DE every once in a while. For the casual trackster changing pads x2 for each event which may amaount to 2-4 a year is a PITA, as that time is better spent doing something else.

That's where I'm coming from.

Do you know if the Pagid Sports are the same as their RS 4-2-1 Black? Their website doesn't say that (as far as I've seen), but I recall seeing something to that effect on a distributor's website.

Also, how would you compare the bite of the Pagid Sports with the stock pads?

[good hands]

I use Pagid Sports on my 997. They're a little noisier than regualar pads but perform fine for a DE every once in a while. For the casual trackster changing pads x2 for each event which may amaount to 2-4 a year is a PITA, as that time is better spent doing something else.

Changing pads takes about 3 minutes per wheel. 4 if you count jacking the car up. When I learned how to do it and realized my mechanic was charging 2 hours of labor I just wanted to :bang::bang::bang:

[good hands]

Do you know if the Pagid Sports are the same as their RS 4-2-1 Black?

Blacks are serious track pads. Sports are for posers. :lol:


http://www.pagidracing.com/sport.html

http://www.pagidracing.com/racecharacteristics.html

[CanAm]

Changing pads takes about 3 minutes per wheel. 4 if you count jacking the car up. When I learned how to do it and realized my mechanic was charging 2 hours of labor I just wanted to :bang::bang::bang:

I watched it being done and it took way longer than that, so you must be mighty fast at 4 minutes/wheel. And with the Cayman being my default track car, I want to be able to take the 911 on a whim, sometimes not deciding to take it until the evening before the track day. If necessary, I'd rather just get pads good enough for the track and deal with squealing on the street.

[CanAm]

Blacks are serious track pads. Sports are for posers. :lol:


http://www.pagidracing.com/sport.html

http://www.pagidracing.com/racecharacteristics.html

They have two Blacks, RS4-2-1 and RS14. Which are you referring to?

Correction: They also have a RS7-1 Black.

[tbernard]

RS-14's are the serious track pad, just read the description.

[good hands]

I watched it being done and it took way longer than that, so you must be mighty fast at 4 minutes/wheel. And with the Cayman being my default track car, I want to be able to take the 911 on a whim, sometimes not deciding to take it until the evening before the track day. If necessary, I'd rather just get pads good enough for the track and deal with squealing on the street.

Porsche Brake Pads replacement in under 9 mins.. - YouTube

Maybe add a minute or 2 if you want the brake sensor.

[good hands]

RS-14's are the serious track pad, just read the description.

My bad. Didn't even know they made a black pad that wasn't a serious track pad. Why the F would they have 3 different black compounds ? Most track guys just know their pads as Pagid blacks,oranges, greys and yellows.

[Dr K]

I love seeing a thread where just about every one of the 100 posts says to do something, and the OP insists everyone is wrong.

3 choices, Irfan,

Change the pads. It's quick, free, and you are actually wrenching on a Porsche (it was the first thing I did on the P-car)
Leave the track or crossover pads on all the time, and live with the squeal
Be a douche and have the dealer change the pads for you (I'm with Scott on that)

[blipshift]

Sorry, speaking for myself it takes me much longer to change pads. I don't consider a car jacked up with all tools a fair description either. Prep, including moving cars, pulling all the correct tools out jacking and using stands not just the jack takes time. There is also cleanup. It's a PITA and I'd rather do something else with my hr I'll never get back (similar to reading this thread) especially considering it's work on a car that I don't want to work on, that's why I have the 951.

IRFAN, I think you already know your answer, try the Sports.

[CanAm]

I love seeing a thread where just about every one of the 100 posts says to do something, and the OP insists everyone is wrong.

3 choices, Irfan,

Change the pads. It's quick, free, and you are actually wrenching on a Porsche (it was the first thing I did on the P-car)
Leave the track or crossover pads on all the time, and live with the squeal
Be a douche and have the dealer change the pads for you (I'm with Scott on that)


I'm not trying to be stubborn or say that everyone else is wrong. I just find it hard to believe that there isn't a pad out there which is a big improvement over stock pads and sufficient for occasional track use. The Pagid RS 4-2-1 Black or Sport may fit the bill, but I need to find out more about 4-2-1, and no one here has mentioned having used it (I've sent an email to Pagid to ask).

Also, note that I changed my question relative to the thread title. I originally asked about track pads which don't squeal too much for the Cayman, and am satisfied with the PFC08/06 which was recommended. I'm now looking for something different for the 997: upgraded street pads which can handle some track use, and which will presumably squeal less than pure track pads. Maybe I should have started a new thread, but I figured we'd pick up where we left off.

[Dr K]

Well, I have to admit I did feel the same way 12 years ago. Then I talked to Paul Weston (Weston Motorsports), got good advice, and was happy for 2 years until I went with a full track pad. Paul used to be a local member, but now lives in Florida. That has been mentioned above. BTW, I used Kurve Friction pads those 2 years.

BUT, you're also driving a Cayman R with full track pads, and then you're going to go out on the track with a significantly lesser pad - you're not going to be happy with the much longer braking distances.

[VaSteve]

Maybe I should have started a new thread, but I figured we'd pick up where we left off.


Around here, once a thread gets to page 3 or off topic, it's best to begin a new thread. It's a bit like training a puppy, once you lose the focus, you can't get it back. :lol:

[CanAm]

Well, I have to admit I did feel the same way 12 years ago. Then I talked to Paul Weston (Weston Motorsports), got good advice, and was happy for 2 years until I went with a full track pad. Paul used to be a local member, but now lives in Florida. That has been mentioned above. BTW, I used Kurve Friction pads those 2 years.

BUT, you're also driving a Cayman R with full track pads, and then you're going to go out on the track with a significantly lesser pad - you're not going to be happy with the much longer braking distances.

You may be right about that. As I mentioned, if necessary, I'm prepared to run track pads (eg, PFC08) in the 997 full time; their squealing can be substantial, but it's not all the time, so it's bearable. But I'd like to at least give something like the RS 4-2-1 a try.

As far as braking distance, I can get into ABS even with stock pads, so the distance may not be a lot longer. The bigger problem seems to be that a lot more pedal force is required, which makes it harder to modulate the brakes, might get tiring, and reduces confidence. I guess there might also be more concern about overheating the pads, with associated fade, and possibly damaging the rotors?

[CanAm]

Around here, once a thread gets to page 3 or off topic, it's best to begin a new thread. It's a bit like training a puppy, once you lose the focus, you can't get it back. :lol:

Duly noted. Will remember that for next time.

[CanAm]

Quick update. For the 997.2, Pagid makes Sport pads for the front but not rear, and they don't make the RS 4-2-1 at all, so only their full racing pads are available. Next step will be to see what Performance Friction has to offer for an upgraded trackable street pad.

[Vicegrip]

Quick update. For the 997.2, Pagid makes Sport pads for the front but not rear, and they don't make the RS 4-2-1 at all, so only their full racing pads are available. Next step will be to see what Performance Friction has to offer for an upgraded trackable street pad.Might be a hint as to what they think the car needs compound wise.

Caution. Opinion to follow.....
If PF still makes it it think it was "Z" compound. Don't bother, I found this compound to be spendy over regular street pads and compromise in all conditions. YMMV and they might have come up with something else.

The thing is this. What you want from a street compound is close to 0% what you want from a track pad and vice versa. You end up with almost 100% sucks street or track when you try and do both with one compound unless you have gone carbon ceramic and they have their own list of issues.
The pad makers know compromise compounds do nether well enough. Most folks end up understanding this and don't bother with compromise pads and they don't sell well. Plenty of company’s put race inspired words and graphics on boxes but they are street pads unless otherwise noted. Take them to the track installed in a car that has any weight and or HP and prepare to be disappointed.

[CanAm]

Might be a hint as to what they think the car needs compound wise.

Caution. Opinion to follow.....
If PF still makes it it think it was "Z" compound. Don't bother, I found this compound to be spendy over regular street pads and compromise in all conditions. YMMV and they might have come up with something else.

The thing is this. What you want from a street compound is close to 0% what you want from a track pad and vice versa. You end up with almost 100% sucks street or track when you try and do both with one compound unless you have gone carbon ceramic and they have their own list of issues.
The pad makers know compromise compounds do nether well enough. Most folks end up understanding this and don't bother with compromise pads and they don't sell well. Plenty of company’s put race inspired words and graphics on boxes but they are street pads unless otherwise noted. Take them to the track installed in a car that has any weight and or HP and prepare to be disappointed.

I'm leaning towards putting 'less aggressive' track pads on the 997 full time (since I don't like the stock pads on the street anyway), but let me see what Performance Friction or others can offer.

[blipshift]

Might be a hint as to what they think the car needs compound wise.

Take them to the track installed in a car that has any weight and or HP and prepare to be disappointed.

Question. Very specifically, what experience do you have with a 997 running Pagid Sports?

[Vicegrip]

Good question. Answer = None.

Question. What makes a 997 any different than other sports cars?

[John Clay]

Good question. Answer = None.

Question. What makes a 997 any different than other sports cars?

Opinion - there is a difference between cars. I can run my 944 with compromise pads (HP+ specifically) and while they are not as consistent or confidence inspiring as race pads (PF 97s), they will get me through a DE session without significant issue.

Tried exact same set up in the bmw 328 (HP+, ATE blue), and had to quit after 5 laps due to fade. While there could be other factors, I chalk it up to the extra hp in the 328, with brakes that are not as good.

[CanAm]

Opinion - there is a difference between cars. I can run my 944 with compromise pads (HP+ specifically) and while they are not as consistent or confidence inspiring as race pads (PF 97s), they will get me through a DE session without significant issue.

Tried exact same set up in the bmw 328 (HP+, ATE blue), and had to quit after 5 laps due to fade. While there could be other factors, I chalk it up to the extra hp in the 328, with brakes that are not as good.

IIRC, the 997.2 C2S cab weighs around 3500 lbs and puts out 385 hp. So fairly heavy and fairly powerful. I didn't really notice any fade previously with the stock pads, but I'm driving faster and braking harder now.

Checked another source and it says ~3300 lbs. Not sure which is correct.

[Vicegrip]

IIRC, the 997.2 C2S cab weighs around 3500 lbs and puts out 385 hp. So fairly heavy and fairly powerful. I didn't really notice any fade previously with the stock pads, but I'm driving faster and braking harder now.
This is the angle I am working from. The same driver that posts this question about this car also is posting "How do I get more track time?" threads. This = track junkie in the making. This forum is littered with track junkies most of which all made the same list of mistakes as the disease progressed.

Taking it easy on pads while driving on the track is like taking a "free sprinted and willing girl" to dinner and a movie. So close yet so far. ;)

As I said earler I am potsing my opinions.

[blipshift]

This is the angle I am working from. The same driver that posts this question about this car also is posting "How do I get more track time?" threads. This = track junkie in the making. This forum is littered with track junkies most of which all made the same list of mistakes as the disease progressed.

Taking it easy on pads while driving on the track is like taking a "free sprinted and willing girl" to dinner and a movie. So close yet so far. ;)

As I said earler I am potsing my opinions.

Then he should sell the cab and cayman and get a GT3...forget the pads, buy a new car, IRFAN! 8-)

If he just wants to exercise the cab then I just simpy don't agree with the other comments. The guy already has a track car, and IMO there is no need to have two track cars to maintain by yourself.

[CanAm]

Then he should sell the cab and cayman and get a GT3...forget the pads, buy a new car, IRFAN! 8-)

If he just wants to exercise the cab then I just simpy don't agree with the other comments. The guy already has a track car, and IMO there is no need to have two track cars to maintain by yourself.

Don't think I can part with either the cab or Cayman, but I may add a GT3 at some point (anyone selling?). When that happens, the cab will retire from track duty, but until then I do want exercise the cab on the track now and then. It's unfortunate about the Pagid Sports, but hopefully there's something else out there which will do the job.

[good hands]

Have you tried posing this question on 6speedonline ? Those guys are way more knowledgeable than the people here when it comes to 997's. And way cooler too.

[blipshift]

My bad. Didn't even know they made a black pad that wasn't a serious track pad. Why the F would they have 3 different black compounds ? Most track guys just know their pads as Pagid blacks,oranges, greys and yellows.


Have you tried posing this question on 6speedonline ? Those guys are way more knowledgeable than the people here when it comes to 997's. And way cooler too.

Agreed.

[BlackTalon]

Yeah, these really are 6speedonline questions.

Get whatever pads you want. Once you reach a level similar to PCA Potomac's White Group, you WILL toast a set of street pads in a day of track driving. If it's a one day event, then no big deal. If it's a two day event, you may have to sit out Day Two (but you don't get a refund). You'll figure it out quickly enough.

It's interesting to see a thread about maximizing safety and then seeing another one about using pads that are not really up to the task on the track once your driving is at the point whrere you are 135 mph+ at the end of the main straight. I know I would not want to be on street pads, but that is just me.

[good hands]

Agreed.

Ooh, Well played.

[racer]

3300-3500lb car, plus driver, plus instructor plus 130+mph.. Yup, compromise pad makes sense to me :roll:

[VaSteve]

I don't know anything about compromise pads....I compromise on nothing. However, I have found that my track pads (PF-97s) are very dirty and create a ton of dust. That dust gets all over the wheels and sides of the car. Any water makes it rust, including to the sides of the car. Hence, if you found a nice compromise pad but it makes similar dust, would that crap bother you on a new 997? It would me. I'd just learn to swap pads for the few occasions I tracked my non-dedicated 997. I'd also invest in some detailing products.

Me? I don't mind pad squeal. It lets the people on the streets know I'm coming. And, I'm coming in a Porsche.

[blipshift]

Here's Pagids description on the Sports...

RS 4-2-1 Black
High Performance compound with low fading characteristics and high cold friction. The RS 4-2-1 is a most comfortable medium friction compound and very easy on the discs (rotors). Very popular for brake up grades or tuning. It is OE on various Super Sports Cars among others Aston Martin, Bugatti, Ferrari, Lamborgini, Lotus or McLaren. Suitable for street and light track use such as track days or driving education.

They work fine for me for my application of a couple times a year. I use Hawk Blues in the 944.

[BlackTalon]

Those are probably fine for someone who does 1-2 events/ year (which is pretty common outside of our world -- PCA Potomac does a lot more events then most groups). With only 1-2 events a year, the driver will likely not be carrying nearly as much momentum into the t-hold braking zones as they could be, and also may not be adept at t-hold braking yet.

But with 30 track das in just the first season, you WILL burn through pads that are not track compounds.

Oh, and forget about driving half-speed into the braking zones in order to save the pads, as that just screws things up for all the cars behind you. It's not fair it you sandbag it out their and mess up everyone elses' runs.

[cmartin]

What about the drills where you stay in 1 gear for a lap? Maybe you could just keep your arm out the window and practice not using the brakes?

[Lupin..the..3rd]

The way I see it, street pads are like the fast-food of brakes. Sure, they taste good, but they aren't good for you. Track pads are like spinach and broccoli, it's full of nutrients.

[CanAm]

Since you guys are wearing me down (pun intended), let me ask a question closer to my original question: what's a good track pad which has moderate enough bite to be routinely used on the street? The PFC08s are pretty good, but the bite is maybe just slightly too much for the street.

[VaSteve]

I have run PF97s exclusively on my track car. On the street, to the track, drive thru's, 400 miles to mid Ohio, etc. I have no idea what "too much bite" on the street means.

I have drive peoples track cars with track pads on the street and the pads were like ice. Almost like there was nothing there. It was a. 951 and trying to brake when the pads were cold was frightening.

[CanAm]

I have run PF97s exclusively on my track car. On the street, to the track, drive thru's, 400 miles to mid Ohio, etc. I have no idea what "too much bite" on the street means.

I have drive peoples track cars with track pads on the street and the pads were like ice. Almost like there was nothing there. It was a. 951 and trying to brake when the pads were cold was frightening.

I've noticed that the friction vs temp relationship varies a good bit among track pads, with some of them maintaining fairly constant friction, and others having a substantial friction increase with temp (sometimes with a drop in friction at very high temps). For example: http://www.pagidracing.com/techinfo.html

[Dr K]

1) Track pads are often WORSE than street pads on the street, because they work better hot. That said, you generally don't need as much stopping power on the street if you drive sensibly

2) Yes, go to 6speedonline

3) OPINION: This thread is frustrating, and I realize the last thread I found as frustrating was started by and primarily posted by the very same person :( If you really search back, you'll see several of us making 2 similar mistakes years ago, myself included. Not listening to all the experience contained on this board, and doing silly, potentially less-than-safest things as a result.

4) I think you should go to the track with street pads, and bring an extra set so you can change them out when they're gone after the first day. Oh, wait, you're the guy who refuses to swap out the street pads for the track pads for the one or maybe two events per year, instead insisting on compromising (see VGs post above) the other 361 days!

5) I bet you'll like 6speedonline a lot!

Sorry, Irfan, but I have a rule to read every post on Dorkiphus*, so I have to speak up!!

*except Polish Engineering

[paul]

What the good Dr. K said ..

Most track pads squeal and not better than street pads on the street but still have plenty of bite - just drive appropriately for the conditions and all is well. I use to switch pads many years when I started DE but no longer. My DE car is a 87 911 and I use PFC (83 & 97) and Hawk (Blue & HT10) and they work fine on the street. If I were to track my DD (951), I would switch out the pads. It is one of the simpler things to do on a Porsche - less than 1 hr for all corners. I'm willing to help you if you wish. Lots of good recommendations on this thread ;)

[CanAm]

1) Track pads are often WORSE than street pads on the street, because they work better hot. That said, you generally don't need as much stopping power on the street if you drive sensibly

2) Yes, go to 6speedonline

3) OPINION: This thread is frustrating, and I realize the last thread I found as frustrating was started by and primarily posted by the very same person :( If you really search back, you'll see several of us making 2 similar mistakes years ago, myself included. Not listening to all the experience contained on this board, and doing silly, potentially less-than-safest things as a result.

4) I think you should go to the track with street pads, and bring an extra set so you can change them out when they're gone after the first day. Oh, wait, you're the guy who refuses to swap out the street pads for the track pads for the one or maybe two events per year, instead insisting on compromising (see VGs post above) the other 361 days!

5) I bet you'll like 6speedonline a lot!

Sorry, Irfan, but I have a rule to read every post on Dorkiphus*, so I have to speak up!!

*except Polish Engineering

1) The PFC08/06 we have in the Cayman are definitely better (more bite) on the street than the stock pads were. As I noted, the cold behavior of track pads depends on the pad.

2) Will ask at 6speedonline.

3) I did take the advice given regarding the pads for the Cayman, and I've taken lots of other advice too. But I've also found that advice given is often conflicting, even when it comes from very experienced people. Whether to use R-compounds at this stage (Blue+) is a perfect example. So it often becomes necessary to probe more deeply before making a decision.

4) I've already experienced the rapid disappearance of stock pads in the Cayman at WG. The 'street pads' I'm considering for 997 now would need to be a big upgrade over those. Call them 'compromise pads' or 'moderate track pads' if you'd like. The Pagid 4-2-1 (classified as a 'race pad') might have been what I'm looking for, but they don't make it for the 997.2.

5) I've found 6speedonline useful in the past.

I don't mind your speaking up. That's why I'm asking for advice. And I was cautioned before joining Dorki that people don't pull any punches here, so you have to have a thick skin. :)

[blipshift]

Discussion from pagidracing.com on why not to change out Pads due to mixing of material resulting in sub-optimal braking...

When you install Pagid race pads on top of a layer of an incompatible pad material, bedding might take much longer or in worst case won't work at all. It can also result in sub-optimal brake performance.

Interesting, what happens now when I go into turn one at 135+ during lap two? Right after I switched pads? Sorry, don't always drink the koolaid. Trust but verify.

[HoodPin]

FWIW, 6speedonline has its own issues. Some members are former Dorki's who either a) didn't know what they were talking about, and/or b) were thin skinned. I dare say that there's a much higher percentage of legitimate track/autox drovers on Dorki than are on 6speed. I've found 6speed to be more oriented around the Drive&Dine lifestyle.

[CanAm]

FWIW, 6speedonline has its own issues. Some members are former Dorki's who either a) didn't know what they were talking about, and/or b) were thin skinned. I dare say that there's a much higher percentage of legitimate track/autox drovers on Dorki than are on 6speed. I've found 6speed to be more oriented around the Drive&Dine lifestyle.

That's been my experience too, and why I started my inquiry here at Dorki. Ironic that some Dorkis are referring me to 6speedonline. :lol:

[CanAm]

On the topic of cold vs hot bite/friction with track pads, note in this graph how the RS 4-2-1 and RS 14 have very little variation with temp:

http://www.pagidracing.com/techinfo.html

Since the 4-2-1 isn't available for the 997.2, the Pagid rep recommended the 14 for my application. Though he didn't say so, the friction curve may be a key reason.

CORRECTION: Zooming in on the graph, I noticed it's the RS 5 (Blue) which has the fairly flat friction curve. RS 14 isn't flat, and probably not good for street use. Anyone have experience with the RS 5 Blue?

[BlackTalon]

That's been my experience too, and why I started my inquiry here at Dorki. Ironic that some Dorkis are referring me to 6speedonline. :lol:it might not be irony ;)

Believe whatever you like. Buy whatever you believe to be the correct pads. Run them for a couple events, and then you can make a longer-term decision based on you first-hand experience.

Not sure where the 'drink the kool-aid' came from here, but I can tell you most people giving the advice here have well over 100 track days, and 1) had a time when they were at the same decision-making point you are currently at, and 2) have witnessed hundreds of other drivers be at that same point as well.

The Interwebz iz great. Keep looking long enough, and you will find a group of people who have the same opinion you do. They are the smart ones :roll:

[CanAm]

One more graph for Hawk pads:

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113813

Friction when cold really drops off :shock:, so looks like these would be a poor choice for street use.

[Vicegrip]

Discussion from pagidracing.com on why not to change out Pads due to mixing of material resulting in sub-optimal braking...

When you install Pagid race pads on top of a layer of an incompatible pad material, bedding might take much longer or in worst case won't work at all. It can also result in sub-optimal brake performance.

Interesting, what happens now when I go into turn one at 135+ during lap two? Right after I switched pads? Sorry, don't always drink the koolaid. Trust but verify.
Now there is a data point where I do have some first-hand! Keep in mind what you describe and my moonwalk in T1 were not the same thing. I was not switching from one formulation to another I installed new dead flat pads on old slightly dished rotors. New pads had little contact with the not flat rotors and the rear pads were still hot and grippy from the last run which was almost back to back. I was on point the next lap after coming in for the hand slap at black flag and finished the run within some laps that were inside one second of my best time. (All that aside I was simply too hot for the car condition coming into T1);)

Talking to the wall, read at your own risk. Keep in mind most if not all cold formulation pads are not transfer pads. YMMV but I have found that slapping in and bedding track pads after pulling a set of street formulation pads to take no more than the drive to the track or less. Slap them in the night before, drive to track have at it no muss no fuss. YMMV.
Street pads are formulated to work cold, not make noise when cold, not make harsh dust that eats rims, paint and be kind to rotors. Track pads are formulated to work hot. Some work OK on the street. I use PF-97 in my 912 but it is also a now and then car not a day to day car. I also don't care if it sounds like I am killing hogs from time to time as the open J pipe wins. The rims are ratty track grade with an existing hard rust like layer of dust that sticks to the rims. Almost any pad will work with a 90HP 2150 pound car. The compromise pads I used for a while proved to be the most expensive as they were 2 sets a year and the FP-97 were 3 years per set. Don’t expect this from 3000+ pound 350+HP cars.

"Trust but verfy" is spot on. Trust me the street and track pad swap back and forth advice as been verified by many track experienced people. Slap them in between sessions and try and do a best time second lap? No one is recommending this.

[Chopper Dropper]

Most on this Dorki Board could have swapped your street/sport pads for race pads and back to street before reading through all this, a bit of abrasion on each rotor whilts you are changing should keep any build up down and only take a second!!!
Dirk

[N Fotouhi]

Warning: I do not know what I do not Know, so I am referencing Pagid below. It is irrelevant information, but given the history that any thread that goes past page 2 on Dorki has taken a left turn, I feel that I must make useless contribution to a now useless thread which now generates as much interest as another murder story in Philadelphia, except to the OP.

"PAGID racing brake pads are developed for high performance events. Motorsport is dangerous. PAGID racing brake pads are sold without warranty expressed or implied. No warrant or representation is made as to this product’s ability to protect the user from injury or death. The user assumes that risk"

I do not know if the information is relevent to this thread or another since I know I did not read any of posts in this thread, but I digress.

[smdubovsky]

One more graph for Hawk pads:

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113813

Friction when cold really drops off :shock:, so looks like these would be a poor choice for street use.

That graph is BS. The axes are screwed up or something. DTC60s work fine even at (sub)freezing temperatures. Maybe its the ablative or abrasive coefficient but not the combination for sure.

As has been suggested, I think you would fit in well on 6speed:roll:

[CanAm]

That graph is BS. The axes are screwed up or something. DTC60s work fine even at (sub)freezing temperatures. Maybe its the ablative or abrasive coefficient but not the combination for sure.

No offense, but I think the graph carries more weight than a single anecdotal report. You claim the graph is BS, but aren't showing why. 'Work fine' is pretty vague.

[HoodPin]

No offense, but I think the graph carries more weight than a single anecdotal report. You claim the graph is BS, but aren't showing why. 'Work fine' is pretty vague.

I sorta agree with Stephen about the lower end of the graph. The "cold" performance doesn't make total sense. A number of the pads shown appear to be almost "inopperative" at low temps, but I know that's not the case. As Stephen mentions, the axis appears to be somehow warped; even one of the comments on the board thread mentions it.

[smdubovsky]

You claim the graph is BS, but aren't showing why.

I don't have to show why. The graph shows why (quite GLARINGLY if you understand the axes labels). If you don't get it, you don't get it.

[Lupin..the..3rd]

No offense, but I think the graph carries more weight than a single anecdotal report. You claim the graph is BS, but aren't showing why. 'Work fine' is pretty vague.
According to the graph, they don't work at all below 120 F. I've driven the DTC-60's on the street in the winter time, in DC traffic, and didn't have any trouble. They worked fine. Did they feel exactly the same as street pads? No. But I pushed the pedal and the car slowed down, and it was responsive enough to be comfortable in urban traffic.

"Work fine" is indeed subjective. Suggest you buy a few different sets of pads. Try them for yourself and form your own conclusions.

[CanAm]

According to the graph, they don't work at all below 120 F. I've driven the DTC-60's on the street in the winter time, in DC traffic, and didn't have any trouble. They worked fine. Did they feel exactly the same as street pads? No. But I pushed the pedal and the car slowed down, and it was responsive enough to be comfortable in urban traffic.

"Work fine" is indeed subjective. Suggest you buy a few different sets of pads. Try them for yourself and form your own conclusions.

OK, I see what you guys are saying about the lower end of the graph. I myself have driven the HT-10s on the street and there's no way the friction coefficient dropped to zero at cold temps. I don't know where the graph is wrong, but I'm willing to tentatively assume that the Hawks have a significant drop in friction at low and high temps (ie, correct shape of the curves). And we've read reports in this thread about some track pads having very little friction at cold temps. By comparison, the friction curves for the Pagids are much flatter, at least over the temp range shown. I'd like to get my hands on the friction curves for PF.

[roundel]

Have you considered getting different pads for the street and for the track? O_o

[CanAm]

Have you considered getting different pads for the street and for the track? O_o

Given that some track pads are adequate for street use, and that I don't like the stock pads in the 997 for street use anyway, using 'mild' track pads full-time in the 997 is the direction I'm currently leaning. Not currently interested in spending ~2 hours swapping pads for one track day, and I can live with some squealing on the street. Others may have different priorities.

[BlackTalon]

2 hours?!? :shock: If it takes you anywhere near that long, then I don't blame you.

Anyway, as mentioned a thousand times, use whatever you want. You 'll figure it out over time. If you already have made up your mind, then this thread can die a quick death.

[CanAm]

I talked with the Performance Friction rep at length about this. They have aftermarket Z-rated carbon metallic pads which are good for the street and a big upgrade over stock pads, and they also consider them good enough for relatively short track day sessions, as we typically have in DEs (but not sustained racing). They're apparently not subject to a lot of fade at high temps, but they may wear faster at high temps, so it's important to keep an eye on them. Unless someone here tells me they've tried them and found them inadequate for occassional DEs, I'm tempted to give them a shot. A bit more info here: http://www.performancefriction.com/aftermarket/aftermarket-brake-pads.aspx

[CanAm]

2 hours?!? :shock: If it takes you anywhere near that long, then I don't blame you.

Anyway, as mentioned a thousand times, use whatever you want. You 'll figure it out over time. If you already have made up your mind, then this thread can die a quick death.

An hour to put them on, an hour to switch back.

[BlackTalon]

An hour to put them on, an hour to switch back.Ah, right. Guess that's why I leave the 'race pads' on all 24/7.

Have you started looking at lifts yet? :twisted:

[BlackTalon]

I talked with the Performance Friction rep at length about this. They have aftermarket Z-rated carbon metallic pads which are good for the street and a big upgrade over stock pads, and they also consider them good enough for relatively short track day sessions, as we typically have in DEs (but not sustained racing). They're apparently not subject to a lot of fade at high temps, but they may wear faster at high temps, so it's important to keep an eye on them. Unless someone here tells me they've tried them and found them inadequate for occassional DEs, I'm tempted to give them a shot. A bit more info here: http://www.performancefriction.com/aftermarket/aftermarket-brake-pads.aspx
Suggest you call Paul Westin at Westin Motorsports, or Eric Wong at Brakeswap. Both have a ton of brake pad experience on a variety of cars, and sell pads from more then one manufacturer so they are not biased. Also suggest you talk to some 997 drivers from the White Group while at the track next weekend.

[CanAm]

Suggest you call Paul Westin at Westin Motorsports, or Eric Wong at Brakeswap. Both have a ton of brake pad experience on a variety of cars, and sell pads from more then one manufacturer so they are not biased. Also suggest you talk to some 997 drivers from the White Group while at the track next weekend.

Good suggestions, will do. Thanks.

[John Clay]

2 hours?!? :shock: If it takes you anywhere near that long, then I don't blame you.

I resemble that remark....., although 1/3 the time is spend shuffling cars/bicycles/toys so I can get started. Also, between driving a fo fo and only making a handful of DE's a year, it's a once every two years project.

[VaSteve]

I thought Pam did it anyway.

[Carrera51]

Irfan:
PF Z Rated street pads are nice for that application. Just like Hawk HPS, a great street pad. Like any other street pad, you are going to find them lacking when heated up on the track. They might be OK in green group, but as you progress, you'll wear them out quickly.

I traveled this road 14 years ago when my daily driver was also my DE and autocross car. I tried a compromise pad and ended up with track pads on the car 24/7. I drove the car from green through white group. Like I said in an earlier post, if you are set on tracking your 997S cab, put the proper pads on it for track use.

[ausgeflippt951]

Page 16?! Holy cow -- haven't been paying any attention to this thread; would've thought everything would have been decided by now. And I thought I was indecisive on things like this. :)


In regards to the "spending time swapping brake pads" comments: is spending 2hrs/mo "working" on your car too much time?


Now, I know you have two very nice (and NEW!) cars that I'm sure are in great shape (that wasn't sarcasm, BTW). But DE's put a HUGE amount of additional wear-and-tear on our cars. When doing DE's, you can't be retroactive in solving problems on these cars. Now, my car is much older than yours so admittedly I'm sure I need to spend considerably more time under my car that you might. That said, I see swapping brake pads, bleeding brakes, and doing oil changes as a way to get reacquainted with my car's potential flaws.


I'm sure many of us here have uncovered a problem with their car whilst performing a mundane task such as swapping pads.

Or, show of hands: how many people have uncovered something stupid a mechanic may have done while working on our cars (doesn't have to be a track car)? What happens if you take your car in to get an alignment and the mechanic forgets to tighten a bolt? Hopefully, the tech inspection will uncover this, but still....





My point is: you can't realistically think you'll be able to do a million DE's without needing to get underneath your car and understand (at least on a high level) what's going on... that is to say, unless you're GT3's girlfriend. In which case you can.

[CanAm]

Irfan:
PF Z Rated street pads are nice for that application. Just like Hawk HPS, a great street pad. Like any other street pad, you are going to find them lacking when heated up on the track. They might be OK in green group, but as you progress, you'll wear them out quickly.
I traveled this road 14 years ago when my daily driver was also my DE and autocross car. I tried a compromise pad and ended up with track pads on the car 24/7. I drove the car from green through white group. Like I said in an earlier post, if you are set on tracking your 997S cab, put the proper pads on it for track use.

What about for Blue/White group? I talked with Sloan about it, and he thought they might be worth trying for my application. If they don't last, I can move to track pads 24/7. Or coming at it from the other side, what's the 'mildest' good track pad you've run across?

[HoodPin]

Irfan,
Here's my advice. Get 2 front sets of the HPS or PF-Z's, and give them a try at the track. Compared to the full on track pads, they are considerably less expensive. Worst case scenario, the pads don't hold up well throughout the weekend, and you have a 2nd set on hand to get you through the last day. If you don't like them and you haven't gotten into your 2nd set, you purchase full on track pads for the next event, and use the 2nd set as your street pads.

FWIW, when tracking a car, its a very good practice to bleed your calipers before each track weekend. The fluid in the calipers is what's abused the most, and flushing it out helps avoid a mushy brake pedal. While the wheels are off, easy time to change the pads, too. At the end of the track weekend, there's plenty of folks that could loan you a floor jack so that you can change to street pads for the ride home.

[Vicegrip]

Given that some track pads are adequate for street use, and that I don't like the stock pads in the 997 for street use anyway, using 'mild' track pads full-time in the 997 is the direction I'm currently leaning. Not currently interested in spending ~2 hours swapping pads for one track day, and I can live with some squealing on the street. Others may have different priorities.PF-97 can take heat OK but still has OK torque cold but you will have to be care full of the dust as it binds to stuff after it gets wet.

I talked with the Performance Friction rep at length about this. They have aftermarket Z-rated carbon metallic pads which are good for the street and a big upgrade over stock pads, and they also consider them good enough for relatively short track day sessions, as we typically have in DEs (but not sustained racing). They're apparently not subject to a lot of fade at high temps, but they may wear faster at high temps, so it's important to keep an eye on them. Unless someone here tells me they've tried them and found them inadequate for occassional DEs, I'm tempted to give them a shot. A bit more info here: http://www.performancefriction.com/aftermarket/aftermarket-brake-pads.aspxI used Z rated pads and noted this earler in this thread. I was unhappy with them in a 90HP 2140 pound car in green and blue run groups. Just an opinion here.... If I can over drive them in my litle green car you will roast them in a 997. If this is not enough and I suspect it is just that, not enough, read the next quote down. He is not selling coolaid.
Most racers see more track time in a DE than a race weekend.
Irfan:
PF Z Rated street pads are nice for that application. Just like Hawk HPS, a great street pad. Like any other street pad, you are going to find them lacking when heated up on the track. They might be OK in green group, but as you progress, you'll wear them out quickly.

I traveled this road 14 years ago when my daily driver was also my DE and autocross car. I tried a compromise pad and ended up with track pads on the car 24/7. I drove the car from green through white group. Like I said in an earlier post, if you are set on tracking your 997S cab, put the proper pads on it for track use.^this is from a guy that has been on the track for many years and works for a company that sells peformance brake pads. don't get caught up in parcing Green from Blue. it is how hard you are on brakes. some are hardr on brakes when learing than later when they brake less and go faster. What is the fun in having to drive gently just to preserve wrong formulation pads? Try the Z rated and see for yourself. Please report back so others have a nother data point. Or Go with a PF-97 type compound and be good at washing the wheels.

Tables are set with forks and spoons. A fork sucks at soup, a spoon is not so hot at stabbing up a mouthfull of salad and we all hate "sporks" ;)

[cmartin]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hSs34-d9qO4/S7lGccO9UJI/AAAAAAAAAGU/m4hjQ9kvFJ0/s1600/beat_dead_horse2.jpg

[BlackTalon]

Tables are set with forks and spoons. A fork sucks at soup, a spoon is not so hot at stabbing up a mouthfull of salad and we all hate "sporks" ;):?

I *loved* sporks when I was a kid! You can shoot the plastic 'tines' about 50 feet! :cool:

...my wife won't let me play with sporks, so I have to live through other kids now :(

[CanAm]

PF-97 can take heat OK but still has OK torque cold but you will have to be care full of the dust as it binds to stuff after it gets wet.

I used Z rated pads and noted this earler in this thread. I was unhappy with them in a 90HP 2140 pound car in green and blue run groups. Just an opinion here.... If I can over drive them in my litle green car you will roast them in a 997. If this is not enough and I suspect it is just that, not enough, read the next quote down. He is not selling coolaid.

Most racers see more track time in a DE than a race weekend.

^this is from a guy that has been on the track for many years and works for a company that sells peformance brake pads. don't get caught up in parcing Green from Blue. it is how hard you are on brakes. some are hardr on brakes when learing than later when they brake less and go faster. What is the fun in having to drive gently just to preserve wrong formulation pads? Try the Z rated and see for yourself. Please report back so others have a nother data point. Or Go with a PF-97 type compound and be good at washing the wheels.

Tables are set with forks and spoons. A fork sucks at soup, a spoon is not so hot at stabbing up a mouthfull of salad and we all hate "sporks" ;)

Thanks for reminding me about your experience with the Z-rated. That's strong evidence that they won't do the job for me. As Tony suggested, maybe I could try them for one track day and if they don't cut it, use them as street pads and then switch to track pads for the next track day. I'm resisting it (just want to drove), but you guys may well get me changing the pads myself sooner rather than later. :lol:

The PF guy seemed to really prefer the 08 over the 97, apparently because it's a new formulation and they consider it to be better overall.

[Vicegrip]

:?

I *loved* sporks when I was a kid! You can shoot the plastic 'tines' about 50 feet! :cool:

...my wife won't let me play with sporks, so I have to live through other kids now :(
D00d you are going to have to show me the 50 foot tine shot. My boy would love that trick. :) His latest is to take 50 cap gun caps and bundle them in a wad of paper then mash the wad with a brick. :roll:

[roundel]

Avoid PF 97s. The iron oxide is a horror with whatever it touches if it gets wet. Hawk HT10 uses brass as the binder and cleans off easily without damage. Don't be the guy that attends a DE (drivers EDUCATION) and then won't drive on the skidpad or in the rain because his pads will become demonic if they get wet.

I am glad to see the logic of track pads is sinking in. FWIW when I 1st got my 911 I had about 200 track days in other cars but wanted to learn the weird dynamics of a 911 on 11 year old street tires. I figured a sport pad would suffice in my 200 hp 2800 lb car on Flintsone tires. I was wrong. They were vaporized to the backing plates in about 6 sessions while I thought I was pussy footing it.

[John Clay]

Avoid PF 97s. The iron oxide is a horror with whatever it touches if it gets wet. Hawk HT10 uses brass as the binder and cleans off easily without damage. Don't be the guy that attends a DE (drivers EDUCATION) and then won't drive on the skidpad or in the rain because his pads will become demonic if they get wet.

I am glad to see the logic of track pads is sinking in. FWIW when I 1st got my 911 I had about 200 track days in other cars but wanted to learn the weird dynamics of a 911 on 11 year old street tires. I figured a sport pad would suffice in my 200 hp 2800 lb car on Flintsone tires. I was wrong. They were vaporized to the backing plates in about 6 sessions while I thought I was pussy footing it.

What ever you do, don't get PF 97s if your married to a chick with concourse tendancies......

Although it seemed that waxing the wheels before the event helped keep from ruining them more.

[CanAm]

Not a concourse chick, but the PF97 are out. See, I told you guys that you don't always agree. ;)

[VaSteve]

Avoid PF 97s. The iron oxide is a horror with whatever it touches if it gets wet. Hawk HT10 uses brass as the binder and cleans off easily without damage. Don't be the guy that attends a DE (drivers EDUCATION) and then won't drive on the skidpad or in the rain because his pads will become demonic if they get wet.

I am glad to see the logic of track pads is sinking in. FWIW when I 1st got my 911 I had about 200 track days in other cars but wanted to learn the weird dynamics of a 911 on 11 year old street tires. I figured a sport pad would suffice in my 200 hp 2800 lb car on Flintsone tires. I was wrong. They were vaporized to the backing plates in about 6 sessions while I thought I was pussy footing it.

Shit. Now you know why i dont do the skid pad. :o

[Carrera51]

You already answered your own question earlier when you said you like the PF08 on your Cayman R. You will like them on the 997S as well.

[Trak Ratt]

Love the 97s!! Have used them since they fist came out. Have them on 84 race car and 996 DD

[}{arlequin]

maybe it would be better if instead of switching pads you just switched the cars instead?

goin to the store? use the street car that has street pads.
goin to the track? take the track car that has track pads.

so easy even a dorki can do it

[Dr K]

Worst case scenario, the pads don't stop the heavy, powerful car well enough and you go sliding off the track (but hopefully you'd learn this in turn 1 at Summit Main and just get stuck in the gravel)

FTFY... :p

[racer]

So.. after 18 pages.. any decision yet? ;)

[Trak Ratt]

So.. after 18 pages.. any decision yet? ;)
yes... more data!!

[CanAm]

So.. after 18 pages.. any decision yet? ;)

Not yet, but getting close.

One thing I should have mentioned earlier is that I've done two track days with the 997 using the stock pads and they held up fine. Lack of bite compared to race pads, but they did slow the car as needed without obvious fade. I wasn't as fast then as now, but not slow either. That's what got me thinking that Z-rated might do the job.

But OTOH, WG chewed through the stock pads in the Cayman quickly, indicating that something significantly better than stock pads is needed for the track (especially if Red instructors drive the car :shock:). Not sure yet whether I'll try the Z-rated or just go straight to the full race pads.

[Vicegrip]

By all means try the Z pads. How else will you know or not?

[HoodPin]

.....But OTOH, WG chewed through the stock pads in the Cayman quickly, indicating that something significantly better than stock pads is needed for the track (especially if Red instructors drive the car :shock:). Not sure yet whether I'll try the Z-rated or just go straight to the full race pads.

As I may have mentioned before, WG is tough on brake pads. We experienced the same problem on our first visit. Both the Boxster and 944S2 ate up Hawk HPS brake pads. But, figured out this was because of 5 braking zones from 100+ mph. No other track comes close. Prior to WG, Hawk HPS easily lasted the entire weekend.

[VaSteve]

This has pretty much run its course.

[}{arlequin]

no way. z-rated are the best. ions of friction more than hps, ceramics and even the new mylar pads. best duel purpose set bar none. just ask all the drovers