Self Coaching with data? [Archive]

VaSteve

04-04-2012, 07:28 PM

I just put in a G2X datalogger and captured some baseline data from last Friday. As of now, I only have speed and RPM to work with, I can guess the gears (I thought it recorded that).

What do you guys do to learn from this? Set up experiments...3rd vs short shift to 4th? Try and sort out where you're coasting by engine RPM?

Curious how you are self coaching yourselves.

Racer29

04-04-2012, 07:52 PM

..you need gas and braking inputs to get a complete picture...Ideally there is no coasting you are either on the gas or braking. The set up you have would work to try different lines , turn in pts etc vs lap time. Just my 2 cents

rs911t

04-04-2012, 08:07 PM

The G2X captures g-forces, so you can gauge throttle/braking roughly by looking at the longitudinal acceleration. If it's zero you're coasting. I believe DataLink has G-circle plots. Lots to read online on how to use it to interpret what's going on in turns (e.g. smoothness, trail braking, back on throttle, etc). I apologize upfront if this sounds like an advertisement, but the data really shines when put together with video. It's very difficult to get a sense of track position using the GPS plot. You see where the car went - not where it is relative to the track. With video you know where you got on the brake, where you turned in, how poorly you apex'ed. Data by itself won't tell you that.

Jazzbass

04-04-2012, 08:10 PM

the data really shines when put together with video. It's very difficult to get a sense of track position using the GPS plot. You see where the car went - not where it is relative to the track. With video you know where you got on the brake, where you turned in, how poorly you apex'ed. Data by itself won't tell you that.

But, Greg, how would one go about putting their G2X data together with video?

VaSteve

04-04-2012, 08:41 PM

The G2X captures g-forces, so you can gauge throttle/braking roughly by looking at the longitudinal acceleration.

Ok....I just looked....I have something called "Accel G". It's positive in places I would be on the gas and negative I'd be on the brakes.

I apologize upfront if this sounds like an advertisement, but the data really shines when put together with video. It's very difficult to get a sense of track position using the GPS plot. You see where the car went - not where it is relative to the track. With video you know where you got on the brake, where you turned in, how poorly you apex'ed. Data by itself won't tell you that.

Yes, your software is on my shopping list. :) But, since you brought it up, and I'm too lazy to read on your site, conceptually how do you synch it up? Do you have to mark a point on the video when you start filming and correlate that to the data later?

LPM911

04-04-2012, 08:48 PM

now matter how much data you collect, its still a 944...

:lol:

rs911t

04-04-2012, 09:27 PM

But, Greg, how would one go about putting their G2X data together with video?
Funny you should ask!

Do you have to mark a point on the video when you start filming and correlate that to the data later?
Really very easy, particularly with the G2X. I start the video before I strap in. The G2X starts logging about the time you roll off the grid. Easy to get them sync'ed up between pit out and the start/finish line. Takes 30 seconds to sync after you've done it a couple times.

Ryan

04-04-2012, 09:32 PM

Ok....I just looked....I have something called "Accel G". It's positive in places I would be on the gas

now matter how much data you collect, its still a 944...

LOL...acceleration G's in a fofo. Might as well put a G2X on a shopping cart.

Steve - Bes thing to do is always keep your best lap as a reference. then compare sessions to that (replacing best lap with fastest). Create one track map with segmenst. Compare entry/exit speed, lat g's, plus look at the curves. It's amazing how much it helps. I've been out on track running slower than usual. I'm thinking I'm screwing up one set of turns, but after looking at the data I realize I might actually be faster in those and it is really another turn I'm slower in. Helps you figure out what really to work on during the weekend. I can give you a quick rundown of the software when we are at he track if you want. You can still get a ton of useful info without RPM, brake pressure, and throttle position.

Mark in Baltimore

04-04-2012, 09:45 PM

Just shoot TD in DC a PM and he'll clear everything up with a graph or two.

VaSteve

04-04-2012, 09:51 PM

Words hurt. :(

Steve - Bes thing to do is always keep your best lap as a reference. then compare sessions to that (replacing best lap with fastest). Create one track map with segmenst. Compare entry/exit speed, lat g's, plus look at the curves. It's amazing how much it helps. I've been out on track running slower than usual. I'm thinking I'm screwing up one set of turns, but after looking at the data I realize I might actually be faster in those and it is really another turn I'm slower in. Helps you figure out what really to work on during the weekend. I can give you a quick rundown of the software when we are at he track if you want. You can still get a ton of useful info without RPM, brake pressure, and throttle position.

I'll look for you on Saturday. Greg gave me a test file from last summer I played with a bit over the winter. I really had to no frame of reference since it wasn't my data. So after logging some data last Friday, I've got a bit more of a hang of it and this is an impressive tool. I was actually able to compare my lap to Greg's. The software is pretty cool, but I need to think of how to get the most of it.

I saw some of what you describe, Ryan, my best lap has some slower segments than laps where I was faster. Of course I don't know why I was faster/slower since I can't see the traffic. I guess I need to shoot some video this weekend as well.

tbernard

04-04-2012, 09:55 PM

I can guess the gears (I thought it recorded that).

You can set up a math channel in data link to show the gear you are in at a given moment.

here's a walk thru I did long ago

http://www.trackvision.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=116

APKhaos

04-04-2012, 10:07 PM

LPM911

04-04-2012, 10:10 PM

you need gas and braking inputs to get a complete picture...Ideally there is no coasting you are either on the gas or braking.

that is ridiculous. at the track you should be driving flat out. and when you are driving flat out, your accelerator is always on 100%.

VaSteve

04-04-2012, 10:39 PM

You can set up a math channel in data link to show the gear you are in at a given moment.

here's a walk thru I did long ago

http://www.trackvision.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=116

Todd's math channel for Gear has become the de facto standard in the G2X world. Everybody uses it. Nice work.

Hmmm Ok. I followed the directions, but got crossed up where it said to "enter the gear ratios". I did the drive around the hood and set the ratios automatically deal. So I got out the owner's manual and typed in the values. I got some gibberish about 78th gear.

So I figured out what Gear_sel was telling me by tracking it against the map. At certain points I knew I would be in 4th gear and that was a "56" in gear_sel. So I typed in the values as such for Gear_indicator:
40 - 5
57 - 4
80 - 3

It's showing where I shift and the gear I'm in, but that doesn't seem exactly "right".

What did I do wrong?

Dr K

04-04-2012, 11:04 PM

But, Greg, how would one go about putting their G2X data together with video?

How about a group purchase of TrackVision? I'm in - anyone know how we can get in touch with the company? :D

Vicegrip

04-05-2012, 07:47 AM

I am in the middle of the book “Making sense of squiggly lines”. (On loan from Tony K. I think he is trying to wean me from his advice pool) Good entry level read on what to gather and how to make sense of the data. It is not a read on how to drive or how to use the device or devices software. It focuses on learning to interpret the information so you can better understand what the data shows is happening on track and what to do to improve the car and driver. One of the first things many realize once they see a track map and data pop up on the PC. “Well OK then, looks real cool but what does this mean?”

www.trackvision.net (http://www.trackvision.net/) IMO pay the reasonable fee for the product and you will get a lifetime of free advice right here. Tony and Greg are unfailingly generous with their help and advice both with TrackVision as well as help with the various data gathering systems and their interaction with TrackVision. This alone makes the product better than if it were free but unsupported. They have put in a mind crushing amount of time into this product and continue to evolve it as the data and video systems evolve.

BMAN

04-05-2012, 07:59 AM

I've been out on track running slower than usual. I'm thinking I'm screwing up one set of turns, but after looking at the data I realize I might actually be faster in those and it is really another turn I'm slower

^^
Was fortunate to get Randy Pobst to put down some laps in my car which really opened my eyes to data. He was 3.5 seconds faster than me per lap and having the data broken down into 12 segments we found that most of the time was lost in 4 segments. This really helped me focus and analyze the braking, speed and throttle in those areas. To my surprise the segments were I thought I was fast were my slowest and one corner were I thought I was slowest turns out I was faster than Randy. :shock:

I would strongly suggest getting the fastest fo fo driver you can find put down some comparison laps for you.

tdatk

04-05-2012, 08:26 AM

^^
Was fortunate to get Randy Pobst to put down some laps in my car which really opened my eyes to data. He was 3.5 seconds faster than me per lap and having the data broken down into 12 segments we found that most of the time was lost in 4 segments. This really helped me focus and analyze the braking, speed and throttle in those areas. To my surprise the segments were I thought I was fast were my slowest and one corner were I thought I was slowest turns out I was faster than Randy. :shock:

I would strongly suggest getting the fastest fo fo driver you can find put down some comparison laps for you.

^^^^^This sounds like really good advice.

HoodPin

04-05-2012, 09:25 AM

Steve,
Another thing I do with my data in the 944Cup (I have the RaceTechnology DL1 system) is divide up the track into segments, and then look at the "theoretical best time", which is a combination of all your best lap segments from the loaded session(s). I find that as I improve, my individual "best lap" gets closer to the "theoretical best lap".

Another helpful analysis is looking at individual segments, cause you'll be able to analyze the segment time variances, and see the ones with a broad range of times, meaning that's where you have the most opportunity.

Keep in mind that you need to consider traffic issues when looking at any of the recorded time data.

X2 for Trackvision. The cost is extremely fair considering what you're getting. The amount of development & support by GD and TK is extraordinary.

Chakka

04-05-2012, 12:30 PM

Hmmm Ok. I followed the directions, but got crossed up where it said to "enter the gear ratios". I did the drive around the hood and set the ratios automatically deal. So I got out the owner's manual and typed in the values. I got some gibberish about 78th gear.

So I figured out what Gear_sel was telling me by tracking it against the map. At certain points I knew I would be in 4th gear and that was a "56" in gear_sel. So I typed in the values as such for Gear_indicator:
40 - 5
57 - 4
80 - 3

It's showing where I shift and the gear I'm in, but that doesn't seem exactly "right".

What did I do wrong?

When I set mine up, the gear ratio input confused me as well. I remember having to use the display, put it in the gear selection mode, drive at a constant speed and hit a button on the display. I don't remember doing that for each gear, but I may have. Once that was done, the computer figured everything out and was accurate to my shifts. I took my daughter with me when I did it so I had an extra set of hands to hit the buttons while driving. It's in the manual.

I found several features helpful. Track segment which tell you entrance and exit speeds. Even did a comparison with Antonio at one point to see differences. Since we drive similar cars it was really helpful. In addition, knowing a base number for a good entry is helpful. Like climbing the essex at VIR.

Probably the best feature I enjoyed was the predictive lap time. Although I was reprimanded by certain gentleman who is Scottish for watching these numbers, trying different lines, speeds, gears and being able to see it in real time how it compares to your best lap is very helpful. It shows you with data that driving it into T1 really hard may/can effect (negatively) your exit. How different lines thru T10 can help with top speed on the front straight...etc.

I feel that was the biggest help for me getting my best laps. Instant feedback.

It's a great piece of equipment.....

Vicegrip

04-05-2012, 02:02 PM

+1 on instant feedback from predictive lap time. I will see what the # is just before turn in and check it just after turn out to see if I gained or lost time. Often a real hot feeling segment ends up no so time wise. For me it is when I hit the turn in and apex well and at almost drift out speeds that require wheel work. I made gains in T10 and T1 this way.

I have also been in the groove having fun, looked down at the PL number saw I was laying down a hot lap and then choked the next corner. ;)

Chakka

04-05-2012, 02:13 PM

Or the other side of predictive is seeing a -1.0 and thinking you can make it up in the next corner......that -1.0 becomes -2.0 as you're saving the car from going off......:lol:

VaSteve

04-06-2012, 09:36 PM

Was able to put some some very consistent (timewise) laps today. I say timewise as I would be chasing/passing someone and would think the times would suck, but they came in very close to another lap where I wasn't doing that (or don't recall). So given that, I probably have a lot of places I can improve. :) Yes, coupling this with video to tell why I was slow(ed?) would be very helpful.

I dropped 2 seconds from last week. But I can only attribute that to new brakes. :)

Something else I have found interesting. The theoretical fastest lap page....Everytime I look at that, none of the green segments are on that lap. Hmm.

Vicegrip

04-07-2012, 09:02 AM

-.1 = .1 faster than best lap for my setup. going from -.1 to a -.2 is good in my world. Looking down and seeing that I am 2 seconds off best lap makes me back out and focus on one corner. Zero in and try and put my all into a clean entry hitting the apex dead on with the right angle of attack and tracking out clean using all the track and bringing as much energy through the corner. Some of my best sectors are on "bad" laps.

Chakka

04-07-2012, 09:16 AM

Vicegrip

04-07-2012, 09:21 AM

My correction, meant +.1 as you state. I like seeing the negative numbers. It gets the pulse rate up trying to keep it in the negative crossing start finish

there in lies the rub for me. I see a flyer unfolding and start thinking too much. I had all 200 pounds ofTony K in the right seat on Fri while shaking the rust off in a first run of the season. I was just "droving" around and Tony and I were chatting and laughing about this and that. Somewhere along the way I tapped out a 1:19. Had to fight for one of those last year.

HoodPin

04-07-2012, 09:28 AM

Something else I have found interesting. The theoretical fastest lap page....Everytime I look at that, none of the green segments are on that lap. Hmm.

;)

Something else to consider is to try working on isolated segments individually that you're trying to improve. When you're focused on trying to improve an "entire" lap, it can sometimes be overwhelming. Instead, try working on a particular segment during a session, and it'll probably be easier to assess the feedback. Once it becomes "unconscious competence" then you can move to another segment. Eventually, the parts become a pretty good whole. :D

VaSteve

04-07-2012, 07:02 PM

there in lies the rub for me. I see a flyer unfolding and start thinking too much. I had all 200 pounds ofTony K in the right seat on Fri while shaking the rust off in a first run of the season. I was just "droving" around and Tony and I were chatting and laughing about this and that. Somewhere along the way I tapped out a 1:19. Had to fight for one of those last year.

Had a few laps today where I thought I was going easy because there was a LOT of traffic. Oddly enough, some of those were some of my better times. One lap I knew I was *crushing* it, and we got the checkered and there was a guy in front of me.

Worked on a couple of spots today, will have to compare my segment times from yesterday. Was warmer, but I was more tired, so no records today. Shot some video as well, one day will have to match up with the Trackvision software.

}{arlequin

04-10-2012, 12:43 PM

i cannot believe you guys didn't start here:

http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=12917

HoodPin

04-10-2012, 12:48 PM

i cannot believe you guys didn't start here:

http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=12917

Cool. What was he driving? ;) :p

}{arlequin

04-10-2012, 12:50 PM

a timebomb??

lol

}{arlequin

04-10-2012, 12:51 PM

Just shoot TD in DC a PM and he'll clear everything up with a graph or two.
lol looks like i was late w/ the idea

Trak Ratt

04-10-2012, 12:54 PM

Cool. What was he driving? ;) :pyour car...

}{arlequin

04-10-2012, 12:56 PM

your car...
captain? welcome to your new ship, the ss obvious

forklift

08-15-2012, 09:41 AM

Had a DL-1 for a few years and although I just skimmed the surface it was helpful. Bought a G2X about 18 mos ago and hate the software....I guess I could have given more time to learn it but really don't like it.

After doing a bunch of searches and speaking/emailing a few people I ordered a traqmate/traqdash yesterday. It seems like although it isn't the most powerful software it is /should be easy to learn (data for dummies which I need) and with me only driving 3-4 events per year I don't think I'll max out its capabilities anytime soon. Was looking at the new Solo DL but since my car is OBD1 I think traqmate was the better choice. Looking forward to receiving the new toy and hopefully will acutally start looking at my data again!

Will keep the G2X and run it as a back up and overlay w/ other Poto drivers...and trackvision :D....but the traqmate also has a vid integration of some sort. Might run a sep camera out the back at the races.

Potomac-Greg

08-15-2012, 09:51 AM

I share your issues with the G2X. Unfortunately, it's also my dashboard, so I have to suck it up and learn the software. It's incredibly non-user-friendly, but the data is fine.

VaSteve

08-15-2012, 09:55 AM

Once you get used to it its ok. I bought mine second hand and the predictive time doesnt work. I saw it did work in Jim's hobiecat car. I need to connect the serial and fix that i guess.

The big thing i learned was to set up "experiments". Faster thru turn 3 in 3rd or 4th gear! It turns out to be the same.

arob

08-15-2012, 10:16 AM

I got an AIM Solo for Christmas. I only know how to work lap times. :oops:

smdubovsky

08-15-2012, 10:57 AM

G2X: Once you get used to it its ok.
x2. Not easy to just jump in and start but the manual tells you that.

hobiecat

08-15-2012, 05:24 PM

Yeah - mine works pretty good. Took a while to get it setup correctly.....finding a good tach signal
took some research and setting the gear ratios was particularly non-intuitive, but I got help with
that on the Racepak G2X forum. I know I can add more sensors, but maybe later.

Have only just started really learning how to use it. And using Trackvision to integrate the data and
the video from my GoPro was pretty easy.

APKhaos

08-15-2012, 06:28 PM

I bought mine second hand and the predictive time doesnt work.

Predictive for the G2X came out years ago. Download the current G2X firmware from Racepak.com,, load it on the memory card, turn on the G2X on. Done.

VaSteve

08-15-2012, 06:35 PM

Right....I think the channel was set to something else. They were supposed to set it back to defaults. I guess not.

APKhaos

08-15-2012, 06:47 PM

Right....I think the channel was set to something else. They were supposed to set it back to defaults. I guess not.
?? Its an internal channel - not something the user can mess with. Once you have the right firmware, predictive is there.

VaSteve

08-15-2012, 06:59 PM

Either way, something ain't right. I have never been able to click thru the times when I'm in the pits either. So i need to figure it out.

VaSteve

10-30-2012, 12:22 PM

Ok, I got my predictive timing working.

Here's how I have been using it over this past weekend, tell me if I should rethink it.

Outlap reports something like a 1:42:00
Next lap starts showing numbers like -:10.00 as I get a 1:32:00 (new best lap)

So I'm assuming it's keying off the 1:32:00 as the best lap (so far). As I cruise into T1, I see -00:40, which I am assuming I'm faster (and the machine assumes I'll do the rest the same as last lap). By T3, I see -00:50 (getting better). Someone wants a pass in the chute, so I', now showing -00:40 again and so on. By the time I clear T10, I'm -:00:50 and I cross the line with a 1:31:10. (new best lap).

So now, the new best is a 1:31:10 and if I see 0:00, the whole lap, I'm exactly the same as the best lap.

If I have been maintaining a :00, then it drops to a -:20, I've done something faster, if I have a +:20, done something slower. Similarly, if I'm maintaining a :40 since I had a late pass on the straight and I pull off some wizardry in T6 and it drops to a :20, I've done good.

Do I have this right?