SummitMain DE Red Group Passing

[deutschkar]

‪Potomac PCA Red Group Chop At Summit Point Main‬‏ - YouTube

getting passed in turn 10 by a white/red 997 GT3RS on the first lap of the session. This was Saturday while driving in the Red Group.

[Jase007]

OK, 77 views so far and no comments?

Patrick:

I'm sure it was different in person but ... doesn't look like the 997 did anything but move back left after passing you to get the best angle on T10 ... slow a little and and then go for the apex.

Did he/she "have" to move left"? probably not, but I'm guessing they thought had more room on you to do so.

Could their 997 have made the corner running the inside of T10 (without moving left) = probably... but maybe the drover didn't think so ... or know so ... or that car was new to them, or ... etc...

It didn't appear that you had to "slam" on the brakes, just slow a little for a faster car that could have carried more speed through the corner ... whether they knew it or not.

Did you go talk to them before posting this? What did they have to say?

My $0.02, which isn't worth much.

Cheers.

[rs911t]

I had a similar experience at T1. I wasn't expecting the move and thus was a bit surprised. But the car was moving faster and it turned out to be no problem whatsoever. We both made the corner on line at normal pace.

[HoodPin]

x2. Didn't appear to be a major infraction. Though the passing car could have handled it differently too. Personally, on a late T10 pass like that, I would have just stayed right and entered the turn. But I've seen it done both ways. When a car does move back on line just before the turn-in, I generally expect there's going to be some possible braking, and try to anticipate/allow for it.

As mentioned, never hurts to go and talk to the driver afterwards. Much better when we discuss and learn from each other, rather than fester in unfulfilled expectations. ;)

[Vicegrip]

‪Potomac PCA Red Group Chop At Summit Point Main‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_KqO8p6uDs)

getting chopped AND brake checked in turn 10 by a white/red 997 GT3RS on the first lap of the session. This was Saturday while driving in the Red Group.
Perhaps the video atenuates other aspects or depth perception. From another red run group drover seeing only the video... It looked like the white car took your pass, got in front, got over (yes nice and tight) set the nose/tweeked the speed of his car slightly for turn in and got on with it not holding you up a second.
I was looking for things like Mark's helmet taking a dip as you had to stand on the brakes to keep from tagging the white car but it did not look like you guys had to make any eyepopping ajustments.
If I know the other driver/car I prefer the car coming back in then we both get a good run on the turn. If the passing car has to stay off line and ajust entry and apex speeds down the passed car gets balked too. What I have never liked was a straigt line car getting in front and then puttering through the corner making me stand on the brakes to over ajust to his cornering speed. Would take be 2 laps to get the rubber bands rewound. This and uneeded off line cornering used to tick me off when I was droving the 912 in black.

[racer]

Those GT3 tailights blinking are really cool.. Annoying, perhaps.. startling as it was the frist run on Sat? perhaps, but not sure its really a big deal.

x2 with VG about letting someone by and then getting balked majorly at entrance to T10 and losing momentum for the whole straight. Looks like both cars adjusted well and neither was significantly slowed by the pass.

[roundel]

While he did not cause you lock-up, I do see that as a bit rude. I have had much faster cars pass me and brake hard scaring me badly so I try to give tons of room when passing and stay offline into the corner. I figure people will be more willing to give me a pass anywhere if they know from experience that I will be very polite and give them lots of room as I go by.

I also agree that the proper course of action if your were uncomfy is to talk to the other driver in a nonconfrontational way so he can recognize that he put you out of your comfort zone.

[Der ABT]

I got to watch this from right behind, i thought they hit till noone came in the next lap.
in the video the fisheye in the go pro really throws me off but i know i said WTF when i saw it happen.
i agree there was not a ton of speed lost....to me it just seems that if your going to move back over just barely in front of someone, when your already in a braking zone slappin on the brakes could cause a huge problem if your less than a car length away...and the courtesy side of things.
Granted im new to red but didnt have anything like this happen to me all weekend and was definately passed in the same play by Ryark (ryan and clark 3 inches apart)

[Dandelion]

Those GT3 tailights blinking are really cool.

That's a video artifact; in real life, you don't see the blinking.

ed

[Eric S]

While I concur that it didn't lead to dramatic correction by the car being passed, and I acknowledge lower HP cars not wanting to be blocked, my preference is to stay off line in late pass situations. Some of my favorite late passing signals are with John Sullivan where I dive in right behind him; fun and neither is held up much. I'd say that my experiences in giving/taking passes were positive this weekend.

Also endorse the concept of talking with the other driver, as Roundel stated so eloquently. BTW, only one such white GT3 RS there this weekend - Mike Levitas. I think that even Mike would like to know if something he did made someone else uncomfortable.

[Ryan]

Phew, I drive a grey one

[Eric S]

Phew, I drive a grey one

Ryan - we had a great pass just as I described in Turn 10 yesterday. Late, you stayed inside on entry, I knew that your momentum would take you to track out, so I braked a little extra and turned in a little later than normal, but I was able to slide right in on your rear bumper. Until the jets kicked in... b' bye. By the way, this was a case where Clark was chasing you but stayed back for the pass to complete; once on the straight I gave him the signal. A good example of why even when playing/chasing; never pass without a signal - that would've been fugly.

In late passing my decisions are based on trust and familiarity. Until you know the drover, you need to give a little more room. I had several passing signals into Turns 4 and 6 this weekend; in those cases I made sure that I hugged the inside and didn't track out until I saw that the other driver had tucked in behind and then I knew I could use more track if I wanted to; hopefully those giving the passing signals found it comfortable as well.

[BlackTalon]

My useless $0.02:

1. Yes, it was a bit of a chop, but I did not see a brake check per say -- mainly someoone in a faster car who needed to slow to a certain speed to make the corner.

2. If Mike L stayed offline, he would have been slower through the turn. And I assume that is what you were anticipating would happen. So weren't you going to slow a bit extra anyway?

3. I am surprised a Red Group drover would go through the trouble of posting something like this on a BBS, yet not take 5 minutes to track down the driver of the other car and talk to them. I now the chief instructors strongly (and repeatedly) encourage advanced drovers to track down their fellow drovers and work things out in the paddock.

Sure, it was a move you were not expecting. But I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by posting this video.

On a side note, it looked like you were driving really well out there this weekend.

[BlackTalon]

I had several passing signals into Turns 4 and 6 this weekend; in those cases I made sure that I hugged the inside and didn't track out until I saw that the other driver had tucked in behind and then I knew I could use more track if I wanted to; hopefully those giving the passing signals found it comfortable as well.I gave you a couple of them in T6, and had no issues. :cool:

[forklift]

3. I am surprised a Red Group drover would go through the trouble of posting something like this on a BBS, yet not take 5 minutes to track down the driver of the other car and talk to them. I now the chief instructors strongly (and repeatedly) encourage advanced drovers to track down their fellow drovers and work things out in the paddock.

X2 Take it up w/ them.

Vid didn't look that bad anyway....could have stayed over but I don't think that was a brakecheck. I've only seen one BC in Red (or any other time) and I had (many!) words w/ the driver after the session was over.

[good hands]

Anyone who has owned that car has been a whiner on the track :cool:

Patrick, what times did you get this weekend ?

[LPM911]

Ryan - we had a great pass just as I described in Turn 10 yesterday. Late, you stayed inside on entry, I knew that your momentum would take you to track out, so I braked a little extra and turned in a little later than normal, but I was able to slide right in on your rear bumper. Until the jets kicked in... b' bye.

Bob Mulligan and I had a similar encounter in T1 a few years back in the CR enduro. He came in hot on the inside so i stayed out for a late start to my turn in. He ran so far to the outside he was almost in the dirt and I was able to sneak up beside him and drag race him to T3. Thanks to his cup car gearing and extra ponies, he won the drag race, but it sure was fun!!! :D

sadly the video of this is quite dull, but he and I did talk about the event... when he handed me my red wristband for the first time :twisted:

[Potomac-Greg]

Pretty common event when you drive a momentum car. You give the pass to the higher-HP car, but that driver may have an earlier braking point than you do. If he stays offline, no problem, but if he darts back in front, and uses marker 4 while you use marker 3, it can get stressful.

[APKhaos]

getting chopped AND brake checked in turn 10 by a white/red 997 GT3RS on the first lap of the session. This was Saturday while driving in the Red Group.

That is one of the most accomplished, courteous, and capable drivers you'll ever see and a great supporter of the club. You may want to think twice before any more public whining about what looks like a fairly innocuous move in the red run group.

[Der ABT]

If he stays offline, no problem, but if he darts back in front, and uses marker 4 while you use marker 3, it can get stressful.

Could not have said it better. Im pretty sure that was what was trying to be said (since i know pat well) but the wording was just not the best.

Tony---Sooo angry.:?

I know i got railed by several people for calling out black run groups and passing woe's in a video but i think overall it made the group better. The video really doesnt make it look as bad as it did when i saw it...maybe mark francis can chime in since he was in the passenger seat but it look VERY close from a few car lengths behind them.

[deutschkar]

Okay, so this has gotten a bit out of hand. Imagine my surprise when I checked this at lunch after not looking at it since I posted it. I can fully understand because of my wording how this can be seen as a flame post to the driver. Not my intensions. I wanted to spur conversation on this topic. Obviously I used poor edicate in the way I went about it. When this happened I was not angry. I didn't get off the track angry. I was like WTF? That wasn't very cool. By the time I found out who the driver was at the end of the day he was gone. I'm totally on page with speaking to drivers post track about weird things that happen. I'm probably over sensitive about being courteous to everyone else out there. You can ask Dirk. Him and I had a confusing moment on track on Sunday and as soon as I got out of the car I went over and spoke with him about it.

For the record I am not a driver in the red group. I was in that group doing a check out ride. And second of all that session in red was the most fun I've probably ever had at a DE. To be able to drive with others that I fully trust being next to on track, the level of attention required...Just an absolute blast! It totally ruined (j/k) the rest of the weekend for me because that was as good as it gets at a DE imho. I've driven with lots of different clubs and a couple other PCA regions. The drivers in Potomac are top notch and really have their stuff together. Not to mention the comradery that exists.

Pretty common event when you drive a momentum car. You give the pass to the higher-HP car, but that driver may have an earlier braking point than you do. If he stays offline, no problem, but if he darts back in front, and uses marker 4 while you use marker 3, it can get stressful.

Greg: I totally agree and this is the point to make.

"Anyone who has owned that car has been a whiner on the track
Patrick, what times did you get this weekend ? "

Scott: You crack me up...I don't know the times yet I haven't looked at the data. I'm not expecting them to be great. Probably like 1.28? I was running the set of 15" wheels with 225's on all 4 corners all weekend in hopes of getting more experience throttle steering, etc.

TonyKelly: You are someone who I highly respect. Anytime I've ever asked you a question you have been the most helpful in taking the time to explain it or offer suggestions. The line you taught me through the carousel has been my foundation in that sector. I hope your comments were fueled by your emotions in standing up for your friend. Hopefully we can share a beer sometime.

[APKhaos]

Not angry, but once you figure out who was driving the white car its clear that you'd need to think twice before calling him out in a public forum like this.

I'm not questioning the facts, just the way this is being presented. The right way to handle situations like this is to go talk to the other driver. In this case, it was absolutely the way to go.

[Chopper Dropper]

I am only commenting on the situation Patrick mentioned involving me, and only as a guide to how that paticular situation should have been handled.
Black run group, I came out of T1/2 hot on the heels of Patrick who gave me a good signal to pass him on the right, the car a little further in front of Patrick and closer to the drivers right of track correctly gave Patrick a pass on the left. I eased back square behind Patrick and waited for confusion to sort, but expected Patrick to take the first car as signaled on the left, I would follow and take a pass further down field. Patrick slowed slightly and pulled in behind Greg both now giving me a pass on the left. Nothing wrong with all this and no oops moments but it did slow all parties down a bit. My observation to Patrick (first timer in Black) was he probably should have taken the first pass when I pulled square behind him, and then worried about getting me past further on. Anyway Patrick congrats on Black run group and Club Race check out.
Dirk

[BMAN]

I discussed this with Pat right after it happened and he seemed more surprised than upset about it. Considering it was a checkout ride for Club Race, it was ironic timing to have someone do something unexpected. We laughed and joked about it......and wanted to bust the driver's balls.

IMO, there was no intent to offend or blemish anyone.

[Jase007]

If this was a checkout ride for CR, then it is fantastic that this did happen ... as it will happen often AND MUCH CLOSER, when you are racing nose-to-tail.

Good learning experience.

TK: go tell Levitas he needs to learn how to drive! :lol:

@ Dirk: can you please post charts and graphs a/la Todd so that we can get a good picture of the three car tango you are describing?

[Dr K]

I've always felt is was faster for both cars to just take the turn off line, and that's what I do (and I love tucking in behind the much faster cars who are a bit slower around the turn for that tighter line, and seeing how long I can hold them). But part of that is that my awareness of when I'm by the other car could be better. ML is awesome and can do things the rest of us (or at least most of the rest of us) can't, but he's going for his best time, which would mean tucking back in if he has the time. As soon as I saw a bumper start crossing in front of mine, I'd at least have my foot on the brake (perhaps the LEFT foot...), or at least I hope I would. Glad there was no contact, and I'll bet you won't forget that experience soon, Patrick. It's going to make you a better racer - good luck with that.

Scott: My best laugh of the day!! Are we going to hear from the former "Faster Than Scott" again?

EDIT: Cross-posted with Jase. TD comment is my second best laugh of the day! :D

[Casey914]

I cut up the video from the white car this morning... surprised me when I saw this video.

Casey

[good hands]

TK: go tell Levitas he needs to learn how to drive! :lol:



If that was Levitas driving why is he hitting the brakes that early in turn 10 ? ;) :p

[Potomac-Greg]

If that was Levitas driving why is he hitting the brakes that early in turn 10 ? ;) :p

fixt

[rs911t]

... both now giving me a pass on the left. Nothing wrong with all this and no oops moments but it did slow all parties down a bit.
And I'm watching this kerfuffle develop behind me wondering when y'all were going to get about gettin' around me so I could be on way! :D

[Vicegrip]

Patrick, Speaking for myself, I did not see your post as much of a real knock. Now that we all know you are not a regular to Red it is even less so if it were at all. If this was a CR checkout as said you should thank him for the mile wide gap he left. If a check out for Red it is also a good thing. Most passes are not as snug but this is more for the lack of opportunity than anything. ;) They are at times a nice little dance and both cars often contain grinning drovers in them during.

For this we all need to keep in mind this is T10 not T1. T10 does not have little 5.4.3.2.1 signs with a threshold brake at one of the numbers. T10 gets a much smaller and less abrupt speed adjustment. (in my case an over-adjustment)

[Chopper Dropper]

If this was a checkout ride for CR, then it is fantastic that this did happen ... as it will happen often AND MUCH CLOSER, when you are racing nose-to-tail.

Good learning experience.

TK: go tell Levitas he needs to learn how to drive! :lol:

@ Dirk: can you please post charts and graphs a/la Todd so that we can get a good picture of the three car tango you are describing?

Sorry Jase, looks like TD is in retirement, and I am not into graphs and 8X10 Glossies, or at least not in this case!!!
Dirk

[BlackTalon]

Yes, having the context now helps a little (i.e., really just moved to Black). Even as a Black Group regular I don't think that sort of thing will phase you much going forward. Being one of the slowest in Black, I gave out quite a few passes over the weekend heading into braking zones. There was a variety of abilities in the overtaking drovers to get back on the gas when entering offline. In several instances I had to check up mid-turn when drovers did not get back on the gas and I almost went up their tailpipes a la Dr. K. But it was more of an annoyance then anything else, and I was always prepared for the possibilty that they would either cut back on line quickly before the turn, or hesistate while in the turn. Happened a lot in T3!

It's all a comfort thing. And your comfort level will improve the more sessions you run.

[HoodPin]

This is about as much illustrating as Dirk could probably handle.....

27337





:p

[Chopper Dropper]

There were more than a couple of cases I think drivers were thinking of all 4 but sure a h*ll were not thinking of driving. Luckily the only write up was due to a mechanical and sometimes pure dumb luck kept others out of the wall!!!!
Dirk

[BlackTalon]

There were more than a couple of cases I think drivers were thinking of all 4 but sure a h*ll were not thinking of driving. Luckily the only write up was due to a mechanical and sometimes pure dumb luck kept others out of the wall!!!!
DirkIs that a code phrase for 'gravel trap'? :lol:

[jerome951]

Everyone has been missing the obvious. Since Patrick were on his CR checkout ride, he should have been protecting the inside line into T10 and forced ML to take the outside line. Doing this would have avoided this entire nasty on-track and on-line situation. ;-)

[Vicegrip]

Had we known this was CR checkout ride the feedback would have been far less dip-lo-matic ;)

[antonioconceicao]

X10 you made a very good point . Maybe all the CR checkout rides should have a couple drovers doing stuff like this, when you start racing you must be ready for this and much more. I recall at comp school having drovers testing us with stuff like this all day and if you touch it you buy it ;)

Antonio

Congrats Patrick !




If this was a checkout ride for CR, then it is fantastic that this did happen ... as it will happen often AND MUCH CLOSER, when you are racing nose-to-tail.

Good learning experience.

TK: go tell Levitas he needs to learn how to drive! :lol:

@ Dirk: can you please post charts and graphs a/la Todd so that we can get a good picture of the three car tango you are describing?

[HoodPin]

FWIW, the CR checkout rides during a DE weekend shouldn't require other drivers having to do anything special to enhance the experience. I think a drover's skill/ability becomes evident pretty easily. During my CR checkout, I was asked to do some offline driving to see what sort of pace could be maintained. As Antonio mentioned, you still have to do the Comp School anyway.

[Trak Ratt]

A "chop" to me means needing to brake before they get all the way in. Have flat spotted some tyres because of that.

[Der ABT]

As Antonio mentioned, you still have to do the Comp School anyway.

Comp school??? you mean go to the first club race and dont hit anyone or get a 13??? not exactly a school more of a first race.
when i got my liscense there was no school besides the practice starts etc.

for Nasa etc i know there is a comp school but not pca that i know of

[Carrera51]

Sorry late to the party. I was in the car with Patrick. He did fine in his check out ride. Bottom line is when I am asked to do these, if I wouldn't be comfortable going into a corner door to door with the person in race conditions, or I don't think they see the big picture they need to in order to race, no sign off and sorry thanks for playing. I take it very seriously. The others out there noticed I had him driving all over the place on the track, since chances are he will be in all those places in a race, especially in the early laps.

The fish-eye effect of his camera made the GT3 look further away than it was. He wasn't whining and cheesing about it afterwards. He Evan and I all simply agreed that the jink by the GT3 to get back on line wasn't necessary and did make him check up a little more after it moved over. When it slowed faster than Pat anticipated, he handled it just fine since he didn't lock up, or tattoo the pretty white bumper cover.

In regards to PCA's comp school, the stewards are watching the rookie candidates during the practice sessions, and the practice starts and fun race. And yes, they can decline to let them race if they don't feel they are ready. Antonio has already raced with NASA and has a comp license with them so I am not sure if the rookie orientation is mandatory. He will still have to put an "X" on his back bumper though.

Man all this racing talk is making me miss my car again... Need to go round up a car for the SP race.

[antonioconceicao]

You right, I still need my CR check out ride and will have to be there Thrusday and Friday for the rookie orientation and I will have a X at SP race.

[QUOTE=Carrera51;362754] In regards to PCA's comp school, the stewards are watching the rookie candidates during the practice sessions, and the practice starts and fun race. And yes, they can decline to let them race if they don't feel they are ready. Antonio has already raced with NASA and has a comp license with them so I am not sure if the rookie orientation is mandatory. He will still have to put an "X" on his back bumper though.

QUOTE]

[APKhaos]

Even with NASA license and a winning record in NASA races, PCA insists that 'new to PCA CR' guys attend the rookie orientation, and do all the Friday practice and fun race sessions before being signed off to race in the Saturday sprints etc.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is the way it goes for most people who hold a race license from another sanctioning body.