Are E36 M3s the "sc/carrera" of the BMW World?

[racer]

Where are the E36 M3 owners? Looking for some "local feedback" on ownership and useage. Mileage (overall) and per tank ;) I'm considering getting one but I have no idea how good/bad the local BMW support is (dealers, independents, wrenchers etc). I've read that Waterpumps, radiators and rear trailing arms bushings can be an issue... what else should I look out for? How are they as Daily drivers (given their 10+ years age)

They seem to share the SC/Carrera value to performance ratio.. what do you think?

[BlackTalon]

Where are the E36 M3 owners? Looking for some "local feedback" on ownership and useage. Mileage (overall) and per tank ;) I'm considering getting one but I have no idea how good/bad the local BMW support is (dealers, independents, wrenchers etc). I've read that Waterpumps, radiators and rear trailing arms bushings can be an issue... what else should I look out for? How are they as Daily drivers (given their 10+ years age)

They seem to share the SC/Carrera value to performance ratio.. what do you think?Dammit Dave, just buy another Carrera! You know you want to! :p

[Mike W]

Dammit Dave, just buy another Carrera! You know you want to! :p

x2. ;)


A former housemate of mine (I actually just saw him and his wife and his new daughter this past weekend) has a '97 M3. GREAT car! His was black on black and of course was the last M3 that was a sleeper. The car handled great. My housemate and I both thought that it was just ever so slightly slower than my 911, but of course you could use that car comfortably every day of the week (ie. the 911 is my choice but only b/c I have another car to drive every day).

Get one, you won't regret it. His may actually be for sale at some point. Not sure when or what he would be asking for it, but he said he may need to trade it in now that he is a single income provider married father for a more economical car with lower cost of repairs.

[rs911t]

I had a '98 M3 4-door before getting into the Porsche rathole. Great car. Should have kept it.

[magnetic1]

Great car.. but use this checklist if youre buying used:

http://edgemotorworks.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=55

and you have an AWESOME shop literally like 10 min from you:

http://www.rrtservice.com

[aubreym]

Where are the E36 M3 owners? Looking for some "local feedback" on ownership and useage. Mileage (overall) and per tank ;) I'm considering getting one but I have no idea how good/bad the local BMW support is (dealers, independents, wrenchers etc). I've read that Waterpumps, radiators and rear trailing arms bushings can be an issue... what else should I look out for? How are they as Daily drivers (given their 10+ years age)

They seem to share the SC/Carrera value to performance ratio.. what do you think?

My 1995 E36 M3 has 129,000 miles on it. It's my daily driver and a great car. At about 85K miles I had a water pump go bad outside of Gainesville, FL and the plastic radiator melted. Radiator, water pump and labor was a little over $800 in Florida. About two years later the head went bad, cracked, and no one can figure out if it was a very delayed failure due to the overheating when the water pump failed. The head was MUCH more expensive. The head alone cost $3,000 plus a bunch of labor. But it's very unusual for an M3 head to fail. I have a friend that has the same model and year and she's got over 250,000 of hers.

I average around 20 mpg in town and 25 on the highway.

There's plenty of BMW support in the area. BMW of Fairfax, BMW in Arlington, Tischer (Tom Vahle is the service manager and a PCA member) in MD plus lots of independent shops. Charlie Murphy at Intersport works on all of my cars, the M3, 944S and even my wife's minivan.

Don't test drive one unless you're ready to buy it. The car is a lot of fun to drive.

[BrianP]

Dave isn't the 914 slow enough so you don't embarrass people too bad?

[VaSteve]

Aubrey, is yours yellow? Someone in the club had a yellow one at the HPDC, I fell in love with that car.

[magnetic1]

The head was MUCH more expensive. The head alone cost $3,000 plus a bunch of labor.

:shock:

Must have been new through the dealer? That's nuts!

[Parenn911]

Personally...I would go for an E30, the E36's just don't do it for me like the E30's!

YMMV

[aubreym]

Aubrey, is yours yellow? Someone in the club had a yellow one at the HPDC, I fell in love with that car.

Mine is red.

[aubreym]

:shock:

Must have been new through the dealer? That's nuts!

You're absolutely right, that is nuts and no, it was not done at a dealer.

[N Fotouhi]

+1 on an E30, but I am only interested in having one for racing.

[Chopper Dropper]

The yellow one might have been the Amicos
Dirk

[Potomac-Greg]

+1 on an E30, but I am only interested in having one for racing.

At this point, is an E30 M3 as pricey as an E36?

My first ever instructor ride-along was an E30 M3.

[}{arlequin]

if you wanna compare an sc/carrera to a beemer, i think you should pick something from the sc era, like a '83 320i. then maybe make it aircooled. and put the engine in the trunk. and give it another 100hp. and by then you'd realize how much better porsche was making them all along.

b/c if you need to advance 15 years in car development to match what porsche made in 1983, maybe you should ask yourself, why bother w/ that other brand?

[Potomac-Greg]

if you wanna compare an sc/carrera to a beemer, i think you should pick something from the sc era, like a '83 320i. then maybe make it aircooled. and put the engine in the trunk. and give it another 100hp. and by then you'd realize how much better porsche was making them all along.

b/c if you need to advance 15 years in car development to match what porsche made in 1983, maybe you should ask yourself, why bother w/ that other brand?


That analysis reminds me of all the folks cross shopping E36 3 series cars (M and non-M) against 944s (Turbo and n/a) as track/DE cars. The comparable E36 is often TEN YEARS younger than the 944. Both great track platforms; but the difference in vintage and cost is surprising.

[roundel]

My e36 M3 has about 140 track days and 70K miles. It has only had a very small number of issues:

At about 55K, the valves were tapping loudly so I needed to get the lifters replaced. Autocross and cornering were to blame.

I have replaced the water pump impeller once as a precaution.

My control arms and tie rod ends are sorely in need of replacement.

E36s like to break the top tube to the radiator. My radiator is due for a replacement.

I have also replaced both passenger side wheel bearings. Dunno why only that side.

The post 1995 fuel pump does not like long right handers. It must be replaced with a 1995 piece to allow one to use the bottom half of the fuel tank without starvation issues.

Camber is not adjustable - stock. I threw on K-macs and then another set after the 1st set wore out.

The stoke Boge shocks and struts were shot. I went with Konis.

I threw on Euro floating rotors to reduce the heat soak to the bearings.

One needs to be careful about being aggressive with suspension mods. The CAD designed Unibody does not have much to spare if one puts on super tights springs without reinforcing the unibody. I have seen many cars with twisted strut towers and torn out sub frames because they mated rock hard suspensions without offering any help for the body.

All in all, the E36 M3 is a great car. It is faster than an E30 M3 if both are nearly stock. It is far more reliable than an E30 M3. I like the torque of the post 95 OBDII cars, but mod minded owners may enjoy the easier job of tuning the OBD I cars. The E30 M3 is a cooler car to look at, but behind the wheel I have always been a bit let down unless I was driving a 2.5 liter race prepped monster - but then the same investment into an E36 would have still made for an awesome car. The E36 is a nicely balanced car that out performs its statistics with its balance. It is an EASY car to drive compared to the 3.2 Carrera due to its modern shifter and 50:50 weight. The top end feels a little sluggish after getting used to the last 2000 RPM in the Carrera.

Mine is on the lift right now waiting for funds to refresh it and getting it ready for a stronger than ever return to the track. With new bushings, etc it should be good to go.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/roundel/VIR3691.jpg

[roundel]

b/c if you need to advance 15 years in car development to match what porsche made in 1983, maybe you should ask yourself, why bother w/ that other brand?

Or compare similarly priced cars. My M3 will compare nicely to Boxters of the same era and price. It will not compare well to a similar era 911 that was twice the price.

[jerome951]

For a few years I had a '98 M3 4-door w/ an auto box. Excellent commuter car and wish I had kept it. It had <60k miles before selling so I didn't run into the high-mileage bushing, waterpump, radiator issues.

A friend has a '95 w/ ~140k miles. Most of the common stuff has failed on his car. However, it's still a blast to drive.

[cmartin]

I had a e36 M3 and was impressed. mpg avg was ~23, maybe a little more if mostly highway. While it did everything well, I thought of it more as an appliance. No regrets selling it. Now I have a 318 e36 and like it just the same. Sure, it's 100hp down, but it handles just about as good and gets much better mpg. Oh insurance was high for the M3, at least for me.

[Dimi 944]

Does the 318 run on premium as well?

[cmartin]

Nope. I think it says 89. I alternate high test and the cheap stuff.

[Dimi 944]

I am going to look at one today. Thanks!

[smdubovsky]

You sure about that? The late E30 318i's have the E36's twin cam motor. Its high CR and I thought it required 91. One of my E30 racing 'mates used to own one as a daily. There is no knock detection on the ones I've seen so be careful running cheap gas.

[Dr K]

Nope. I think it says 89. I alternate high test and the cheap stuff. You obviously haven't been to the pump lately, even for "regular." Of course, my Prius currently is showing 52.4 MPG on almost 400 miles this tank...

Peter

[BlackTalon]

You obviously haven't been to the pump lately, even for "regular." Of course, my Prius currently is showing 52.4 MPG on almost 400 miles this tank...<yawn> My Targa just made it 400 miles on one tank...

[Lupin..the..3rd]

My neighbor has an E36 M3 but it's a 4 door. Apparently they only sold it in the US as a 4 door for one year, 1998.

I like the "normal" 2 door much better. :|

[Dr K]

<yawn> My Targa just made it 400 miles on one tank...Well, if I run down my reserve, my range is around 576 miles for the 11 gallon tank...on regular...

AND...it's really fun to drive, just a different kind of fun than my Targa (AND the A/C works).

Peter

[BlackTalon]

Well, if I run down my reserve, my range is around 576 miles for the 11 gallon tank...on regular...Is there a point here? I rarely go on trips that far, and I don't mind stopping for gas if I do go beyond 400 miles.

And I don't 'do' regular -- that's gas for the 'common man'. sorta like taking public transportation when you have a perfectly good car (or 3!) :)

[Potomac-Greg]

My wifey's GL320CDI (3 ton SUV) can theoretically cover 600 highway miles on a tank (24 MPG on 26 gallons)... of diesel.

[BlackTalon]

My wifey's GL320CDI (3 ton SUV) can theoretically cover 600 highway miles on a tank (24 MPG on 26 gallons)... of diesel.Awesome -- even better coverage then a Prius, and it doesn't even use gas!

High five! :lol:

[Potomac-Greg]

Awesome -- even better coverage then a Prius, and it doesn't even use gas!

High five! :lol:

Infinite gas mileage.

[Dr K]

Gas Tank Fill-up (cheapest prices in NW DC)
Toyota Prius: 11 gallons of Regular @ $4.09 = $44.99
Porsche 911: 21 gallons of Premium @ $4.35 = $91.35
Lexus SUV: 26 gallons of Diesel @ $4.69 = $121.94

Fun Factor (scale of 10)
Toyota Prius: Fun factor = 5 (trying to get >54 MPG)
Porsche 911: Fun factor = 8 (on street), 11 (on track), 3 (on street, after getting 4 speeding tickets - ask me how I know :()
Lexus SUV (GL Series): Fun factor = 7 (off-road, someone else's vehicle), -2.7 (any other use)

Peter

[BlackTalon]

Still wondering what the point is... You can't afford gas on your doctor's salary?Gas Tank Fill-up (cheapest prices in NW DC)
Toyota Prius: 11 gallons of Regular @ $4.09 = $44.99
Porsche 911: 21 gallons of Premium @ $4.35 = $91.35
Lexus SUV: 26 gallons of Diesel @ $4.69 = $121.94

Fun Factor (scale of 10)
Toyota Prius: Fun factor = 5 (trying to get >54 MPG)
Porsche 911: Fun factor = 8 (on street), 11 (on track), 3 (on street, after getting 4 speeding tickets - ask me how I know :()
Lexus SUV (GL Series): Fun factor = 7 (off-road, someone else's vehicle), -2.7 (any other use)

Peter

[racer]

Thanks for the feedback/info everyone. Yeah, an E30 M3 would be a neat toy to have, but I am not sure I would want to use a 20 year old car as a 4-season daily driver. The E36 is more appealing in that regard. E36 4-drs were made in 1997+1998 only. I would prefer a 4-door for easier family use.

The reason for the SC reference was not for a direct comparison of performance, but rather of the cars general appeal. Porsche guys like the SC/Carrera because of its price point, robustness, aftermarket parts to improve performance and because, well, its a aircooled 911 and we all know there is nothing better. I was wondering if BMW folks/club guys pursue the E36 M3 for the same reasons (sans aircooling of course ;) )

[Potomac-Greg]

Gas Tank Fill-up (cheapest prices in NW DC)
Toyota Prius: 11 gallons of Regular @ $4.09 = $44.99
Porsche 911: 21 gallons of Premium @ $4.35 = $91.35
Lexus SUV: 26 gallons of Diesel @ $4.69 = $121.94

Fun Factor (scale of 10)
Toyota Prius: Fun factor = 5 (trying to get >54 MPG)
Porsche 911: Fun factor = 8 (on street), 11 (on track), 3 (on street, after getting 4 speeding tickets - ask me how I know :()
Lexus SUV (GL Series): Fun factor = 7 (off-road, someone else's vehicle), -2.7 (any other use)

Peter

Getting two adults, three kids and equipment 10 miles to the soccer game:

Prius: Two trips (20 mi.) = 2/3 gallon.
Porsche 911: Five trips (50 miles) = 4 gallons (but lots of fun).
BENZ (GL Series): One trip (10 miles) = 1/2 gallon.
Lexus (GL Series): Mythical car, forces people to walk 10 miles = 0 gallons.

[Lupin..the..3rd]

Lexus SUV: 26 gallons of Diesel @ $4.69 = $121.94
I'm fairly certain his Mercedes-Benz GL320CDI was not built by Lexus. Fairly certain about that. :roll:

[VaSteve]

The reason for the SC reference was not for a direct comparison of performance, but rather of the cars general appeal. Porsche guys like the SC/Carrera because of its price point, robustness, aftermarket parts to improve performance and because, well, its a aircooled 911 and we all know there is nothing better. I was wondering if BMW folks/club guys pursue the E36 M3 for the same reasons (sans aircooling of course ;) )


I recently joined BMW CCA and yeah, people seem to talk more about those M3s than the E46 version. If I didn't already have a DD, that's what I'd look for.

[cmartin]

One problem with the e36 M3 is the punk kid factor. I know I sound like an old man when I say this, but 90% of the calls I received when I sold mine were from punks lowballing me with 'cash' offers. Cash? No kidding, that's the currency, right? The cars are cheap/old enough now many are beat up and need maintenance in a bad way. Be careful if you buy one, clear corners and a chip are a sure sign of neglect, at least to me.

Having owned the fastest and slowest e36 I cant see paying the M3 premium, but have no complaints at all with any e36. Parts are reasonable (maybe not some M3 parts) and so far nothing has been too hard to fix.

[VaSteve]

One problem with the e36 M3 is the punk kid factor. I know I sound like an old man when I say this, but 90% of the calls I received when I sold mine were from punks lowballing me with 'cash' offers. Cash? No kidding, that's the currency, right? The cars are cheap/old enough now many are beat up and need maintenance in a bad way. Be careful if you buy one, clear corners and a chip are a sure sign of neglect, at least to me.


lolz

[Dr K]

I'm fairly certain his Mercedes-Benz GL320CDI was not built by Lexus. Fairly certain about that. :roll:
Jazz - please move this to the FAIL thread!! :bang:

[roundel]

M3 for 4 season use.

There is one challenge here. The brakes on an E36 M3 are rather large and make the use of less than 17 inch wheels an issue. Finding real snow tires won't be cheap. From experience, I can tell you that mine is TOTALLY useless in the snow. Like tits on a bull. Remember "All Season" means No Season.