pf 97's [Archive] - Dorkiphus.net

good hands

10-30-2007, 07:12 PM

Just changed my brake pads and am using pf 97's for the first time. Unlike the Pagid oranges which I have used to this point there is no information or suggestions about bedding them on their website. Do they require the same break in routine as the Pagid's ? Also, i took it for a test drive and noticed a ton of brake dust compared to the Pagid's. Is this just a normal trait of the pf 97's ?

Lupin..the..3rd

10-30-2007, 07:16 PM

I just put some PF97's in and I can confirm the dust. I washed my wheels last week - now they're caked with a heavy layer of black brake dust. These PF97's make tons of dust. But they do stop very nicely. ;)

SilverStreak

10-30-2007, 08:01 PM

Also, i took it for a test drive and noticed a ton of brake dust

You are not going fast enough.

Rob in VA

10-30-2007, 08:09 PM

Performance Friction pads do not require bedding if you're using PF rotors. Otherwise, bedding needs to be done. I have also noticed the huge amount of brake dust (supposedly very harmful to rims) and they are incredibly noisy on the street. From what I heard, they are supposed to be way better than the pagids.

racer

10-30-2007, 08:14 PM

Bedding is always encouraged when putting in new pads. And yes, tons of dust. I would get tons of dust even in an AX environment.. Much more in a DE environment. But I thought they were fantastic pads from a performance standpoint. A little price for the Boxster though.. I think a set ran me close to $500. Having run Hawk Blues in my SC for $210, this was quite a shock.

jsilverm

10-30-2007, 08:56 PM

The pads dont need to be bedded but you need to transfer some pad material to the rotors. 4-6 30-5 stops followed by 4-6 60-5 stops should do the trick. The owner of OG (bill?) told me to spray some water on my rotorsand let them rust a little, then drive around doing repeated hard stops until the rust was gone

Jase007

10-30-2007, 09:58 PM

From what I heard, they are supposed to be way better than the pagids.

Hearsay :)

Lupin..the..3rd

10-30-2007, 10:06 PM

and they are incredibly noisy on the street.

Maybe this is different from one car to another. Mine do squeak a bit when stopping, but I certainly wouldn't call them "incredibly noisy".

Jase007

10-30-2007, 10:11 PM

Maybe this is different from one car to another.

X2

Have only been street driving them these last couple of years on my Targa ... rarely squeak.

MLIN

10-30-2007, 10:12 PM

I personally thought Pagid oranges have bit more bite than PF97s. Though PF97s are great considering how much cheaper they are compare to Pagid. Roughly same price but much better than Hawk Blue.

Jase007

10-30-2007, 10:16 PM

In order of agressiveness I would rank them:

Most agressive = Hawk Blue
Tied for 2nd = Pagid Orange & PF97

I've raced with the Hawk blues and pagid orange / yellows for years. The Hawk blues win hands down over the oranges for initial bite but ...are tough on rotors. My favorite track pad is the pagid yellow ... especially for longer sessions 45 min - 3 hours. :)

Rob in VA

10-30-2007, 10:23 PM

I'm running 97s up front and 01s in the rear. Noisy mother fuckers. :lol:

Trak Ratt

10-30-2007, 11:11 PM

Like the '97s for years! What noise, what dust, who cares :roll:
Put a new set on for MO will prolly not have to change them for 4/5 more track days ;)

Jazzbass

10-30-2007, 11:29 PM

Put a new set on for MO will prolly not have to change them for 4/5 more track days ;)
964 calipers rule :). 2x as much pad, $20 an axle less.

good hands

10-31-2007, 06:52 AM

Though PF97s are great considering how much cheaper they are compare to Pagid. Roughly same price but much better than Hawk Blue.

$300.00 pagid orange for my car at OG racing for four wheels.

$267.00 for PF97's at OG.

Not really that much cheaper and certainly not a big enough difference not to go with the one I will eventually prefer.

hoophead

10-31-2007, 07:00 AM

x10 on the dust. I've been swapping them out for street pads after every event.

They squeal like a freight train on my floating turbo rotors/calipers, but hardly made any noise with carrera rotors/calipers. I tried putting anti-squeal pads on this time, but they don't seem to make a difference.

I can only really compare them to the discontinued Mintex C-techs that I had on the carrera calipers - about the same amount dust, but the PF97 dust is evil (ferrous based). They seem to last longer and have a little more bite than the C-techs. Instead of mail order, I can pick them up at OG right around the corner :)

I did try the Hawk Blues briefly, but they were hell on rotors. That's a show stopper for me, especially with the $$$ turbo rotors.

Dr K

10-31-2007, 08:12 AM

And again I vote for the Hawk HT-10s, as recommended by Paul Weston. Lots of bite, less caustic dust, about the same price (for Carrera rotors).

I switch out my track pads after events because, even though the street isn't tough on pads, it does apply wear, and street pads are about 1/5th the cost, quieter, smoother when cold, etc. And except for this summer, I was changing my wheels anyway.

Peter

Peter

MLIN

10-31-2007, 09:47 AM

$300.00 pagid orange for my car at OG racing for four wheels.

That's all for pagid oranges? Thought they were more expensive. In that case, pick the one you like better. I had a problem with pagid oranges.

In order of agressiveness I would rank them:

Most agressive = Hawk Blue
Tied for 2nd = Pagid Orange & PF97

I've raced with the Hawk blues and pagid orange / yellows for years. The Hawk blues win hands down over the oranges for initial bite but ...are tough on rotors. My favorite track pad is the pagid yellow ... especially for longer sessions 45 min - 3 hours. :)

I heard pagid yellow and black are much better also, but they are more expensive. That's interesting about Hawk blues. My experience was the exact opposite. Not as much stopping power and they forced me to stay on the brake longer and caused more heating. I am pretty sure this was one of the main reasons, I had my spectacular off at Karussel at SC due to soft brake pedal. Talked to Charlie Murphy at the Intersport, and he confirmed the same. He said he encourages all his club racers not to use the Hawk blue.

arob

10-31-2007, 10:56 AM

I used PF97s at PorscheFest in August, and they were great. I haven't taken them off since. They do produce some dust, but that's no biggie - and as far as noise, I don't think it's that bad. Just turn the radio up a bit. :oP

Blur80

10-31-2007, 11:46 AM

Performance Friction pads... I have also noticed the huge amount of brake dust (supposedly very harmful to rims) and they are incredibly noisy on the street. From what I heard, they are supposed to be way better than the pagids.

Lots of Dust.
Have essentailly wrecked the finish on my special alloy single piece rims after driving home from the track int he rain. Can't get the stuff off even with a brillo pad.
Switched to Pagid Yellow at someone's recommendation. They are also noisy, dusty, but brake well onthe track.

Jase007

10-31-2007, 11:48 AM

Stoptech has a good evaluation of several of the pads we are discussing:

Stoptech pad info. (http://www.stoptech.com/products/high_performance_pads.shtml)

Of note:

Hawk blue: "... works well for track use in the front of front engined cars for less experienced drivers [edit] he must know me ;) [end edit], but advanced drivers can overheat this pad on medium to high mass vehicles." [definitely not my 356 :lol:]

Hawk HT-10: "...MOT of 1,400°F." [other pads we are talking about are MOT of ~ 1,100 F].

Pagid yellow RS-19: "... a slight reduction of the friction value improves the modulation (controllability)" and "Due to its excellent release characteristics and controllability PAGID endurance materials are also often used for sprint races." [we run pagid yellows on our race 911s for sprint and enduros].

Manny Alban

10-31-2007, 11:49 AM

LPM911

10-31-2007, 12:08 PM

Color my lucky. NEVER had a noise issue with the 97's. Loved the Hawks, but didn't love buying new rotors every 4 weekends. With the 97's, my rotors are 2.5 years old and I'm buying new ones for 2008.

How many track days do you get with PF97s? And is that with stock brakes or big reds?

-Lane

MLIN

10-31-2007, 12:56 PM

Hawk blue: "... works well for track use in the front of front engined cars for less experienced drivers [edit] he must know me ;) [end edit], but advanced drivers can overheat this pad on medium to high mass vehicles." [definitely not my 356 :lol:]

I guess in my case, the mass of the vehicle definitely out-weighted the experience factor then. :)

Trak Ratt

10-31-2007, 01:08 PM

I have 964/951 calipers with '97s on the front of my SC and get ~25 DE days. Typically put new ones on for MO, then good for entire season. Lower groups tend to use brakes to much, inter ain't fast enough, racers.. well they race :p

LPM911

10-31-2007, 01:51 PM

BlackTalon

10-31-2007, 03:58 PM

Clearly I'm using my brakes too much then, I didn't get anywhere near that with my 97s.DR has 964 or 951 calipers on his SC, that's why the pads last so long. Much bigger swept area and lower temps then a typical SC or Carrera. And his SC is probably a bit lighter then a 964.

MLIN

10-31-2007, 04:33 PM

And his SC is probably a bit lighter then a 964.

Like 400 lbs if not more. Advantage DR.

DR might drive like a little girl, but he doesn't weigh like one. Disadvantage DR.

I'd say it's a wash.:D

BlackTalon

10-31-2007, 04:36 PM

DR might drive like a little girl, but he doesn't weigh like one. Disadvantage DR.I wasn't even going to go there :lol:

forklift

10-31-2007, 05:22 PM

I really like Pagid Yellows RS 19 or 29, been using the 29s lately. On the 2,750ish RSA I get about 6 days from the front and 12 from the rear.

I can't remember rotors, but about 12 days front, 24 rear.

Started w/ Oranges, didn't like then went to Black and liked those, but were activating the ABS too quickly w/ the "new" suspension, so tried the Yellows and I like those the best. I order mine from Mark Francis at CDOC at $250 per.

I did try Hawk Blues once, but didn't like them, although I'm not too sure I bed them in properly.

BlackTalon

10-31-2007, 05:29 PM

Bedding Procedure (as taken from Joey's Brake Warehouse in Baltimore):

1. Take them to a nice dinner, but not too nice, ya know? Maybe like Chilis.

2. Lubricate liberally wit alcohol.

3. Slip them one of dem dere roofies.

4. Let nature take it's course.

forklift

10-31-2007, 05:43 PM

Vicegrip

10-31-2007, 06:12 PM

I got 3 years out of my last set of PF97s and only pulled them because the backing plates were getting rusty and sticking. YM(will)V

There is a lot that goes into brake pads and the formulation that will work properly for the weight, HP and use of the car. Thermal range, % of abrasive to ablative torque production and much more. As an example high torque or initial bite is only one measure and might not be a good thing unless you are very good at modulating inside a small bracket. One thing that seems to be certain is that a pad that is very good at one thing is poor somewhere else. A good track pad is often a poor street pad and vice versa. The physical requirements of one often preclude the other. Street needs to be good when cold and track needs to survive getting gootenhot. blabla blabla blablabla...

Trak Ratt

10-31-2007, 06:20 PM

DR has 964 or 951 calipers on his SC, that's why the pads last so long. Much bigger swept area and lower temps then a typical SC or Carrera. And his SC is probably a bit lighter then a 964.:shock: about as nice as you have ever been... ever!

Like 400 lbs if not more. Advantage DR.

DR might drive like a little girl, but he doesn't weigh like one. Disadvantage DR.

I'd say it's a wash.:DFuch you Dave! You had to buy your lap times! Might be fun to see how it goes this weekend :p I'll be bringing my "little girl" game boy-o :lol::lol::lol:

jerome951

10-31-2007, 06:25 PM

I've gone through about a dozen sets of PF97s on my car. I rarely drive on the street so noise isn't an issue.

I've never bedded mine except for some easy then moderate stops on the warm-up lap.
My rotors heat crack and have to be thrown away before worn below spec.
I've left the dust on the rims for 2 weeks, including rain (several times) and never damaged the wheel finish.

I have ABS and don't trail brake much so fine modulation-ability isn't a major factor.

I get about 4-5 weekend from my fronts and about 3x that from the rears (darned factory brake bias)..

I've never tried any of the Pagids or Hawks so can't compare.

MLIN

10-31-2007, 07:34 PM

Fuch you Dave!

:lol:

Scott, bedding or not, just give yourself extra margin of error under heavy braking in the first session. By the end of the first session your pads should be bedded pretty well.

roundel

10-31-2007, 09:10 PM

I spoke with some friends today at VIR because I vaporized my pads. Many instructors agreed with what I thought I remembered: PF97's dust is very destructive as is Hawk Blue dust. I don't know which is worse, but either will make your paint feel like sandpaper, get a brown tint, and is very tough to get off. Calipers get so caked with the stuff that pads can get hung up and bend! Wheels:fugetaboutit they get caked.

I do not know how others are using them without suffering similar damage, but my experience is that once the dust gets wet, it is nearly impossible to remove. On the other hand, it is tough to glaze and fade with PF97s, and I was never able to glaze or fade with Hawk Blue. Either pad would destroy a rotor each two sets of pads.

I can also report that while my M3 can run with Metal Masters and street tires and survive a weekend, the 3.2 Carrera ate a new set of Metal Master rear pads today in two sessions at VIR. Even this morning's very cold, dewy 1st session was enough to vaporize the rears. It is quite possible that I am still braking too much in the 911 though because it really seems to like "slow in; fast out."

Trak Ratt

10-31-2007, 09:17 PM

Don't have any of these problems with my '97s... must be even easier on brakes than I thought. Though my non drilled or slotted rotors are starting to crack :p

Toby

10-31-2007, 09:26 PM

I've never bedded mine except for some easy then moderate stops on the warm-up lap.

I don't bed my pads and rotors either, just take it easy first lap out. Tried bedding before, but couldn't feel any difference.

I use Pagid Yellows.

Manny Alban

10-31-2007, 10:36 PM

Lane, I get about 15 track days before they reach half way. If it's a club race weekend, I'll replace them, if it's a DE, I'll run them until 20 days. I run Big Reds.

How many track days do you get with PF97s? And is that with stock brakes or big reds?

-Lane

Jase007

10-31-2007, 11:40 PM

Bob:

the 3.2 Carrera ate a new set of Metal Master rear pads today in two sessions at VIR.

Call Houston ... you have a problem somewhere... ;) :lol:

*Seriously ... there is something not right there.

LPM911

11-01-2007, 05:53 AM

My 97s lasted ~6 track days on stock rotors/calipers (fronts). But again, I guess I brake too much. I think I have 1 day left on the PF97s and I've got some Pagid pads to put in for Saturday. Figured I might as well sample the field before completely caving to the dorki PF97 craze. Oh and for more data points, I ran Pagid Blues front and rear just about all season. Replaced the fronts 2 events ago with the PF97s and replaced the rears at the last event with Pagid yellows.

-Lane

Dr K

11-01-2007, 08:32 AM

paul

11-01-2007, 09:24 AM

Dust - what dust? Paint the wheels black and you don't notice :)

I've used both Hawk Blues and PF97s and they're both good pads. I have the PF97s now and they rarely squeal. I prefer the PF97s over the Blues as they're not as hash on the rotors. I use to switch pads for DEs but I stopped doing that due to laziness. They're perfectly fine when cold (for the road).

I normally can use them for approx. 12 DE days and 5K road miles before needing replacement. I get them from raceshopper.com. YMMV