Progress Report on 944 Clutch Job

[gogo911]

Thanks to DR and VASteve for lending me some of the tools to do the clutch job on my 84 944. Here's where things stand:

I've dropped the transaxle, moved the torque tube back as far as it will go (it bangs into the unibody transaxle mounting brace) and now the bellhousing is not wanting to come out--mainly because the top of it is being pinched in the narrows of the torque tube tunnel entrance off of the engine. I'll try to jack up the front of the engine to drop the rear to see if I get a few millimeters of room to get the top of the bellhousing off. If that doesn't work, then I'll take all of the torque tunnel braces out so I can twist the transaxle rear bell housing around to work it around the transaxle mounting brace.

Overall: this is a bitc* of a job--especially while rolling around on your back. Speed sensors and three of the four bellhousing bolts were royal pains in the a$$. If I were to do it all over again, I would drop the engine and tackle it from the front. I would also tackle replacing various seals while the motor is out. This is the big lesson learned here.

I'll get back into it this weekend and hopefully, I'll git her dun!

[VaSteve]

I don't know if removing the engine makes the job any less hatefull. I think a good percentage of beat down 944s hit ebay or craigslist when they need a new clutch. it's expensive or a pita no matter how you look at it. good on ya for the attemot. keep us posted.

[Andy Clements]

I can't remember how much of an issue this was when I helped with John's clutch because we had to completely remove the torque tube (along with rear suspension) for replacement along the way. You SHOULD be able to get the bell housing freed without pulling the torque tube, even though it is obviously a PITA. It may take wiggling and/or rotating the housing to just the right position to get it to drop out. Make sure that you don't have any of the starter cables or slave cylinder lines still hanging in the area that could limit movement of the housing.

Good luck.

[Trak Ratt]

I'm surprised... I've always found working on '44s to be easy and enjoyable :| I'm even looking forward to working on the 931... again :cry: :cry: :cry:

[jerome951]

If I remember correctly (and it's been ~7 years since I did this) rotating the torque tube and sliding farther back yielded additional clearance. Here is a snippet from Clark's Garage containing the things you need to be certain are disconnected before the bellhousing will come free:
Remove the fuel filter.
Remove the transaxle carrier.
Disconnect the clutch slave cylinder from the clutch housing and hang out of the way.
Support the engine underneath the oil pan with a jack and a block of wood. The block of wood protects the oil pan from damage.
Remove the 4 bolts that attach the torque tube to the clutch housing.
Remove the shift lever and shift lever base plate from the torque tube.
Slide the torque tube towards the rear of the car. It will be necessary to rotate the torque tube 180° to allow the triangular tabs on the torque tube to clear the torsion bar tube.
Remove the clutch release lever retaining bolt from the clutch housing (just above the opening in the clutch housing for the starter).
Thread the long 8 mm thread bolt into the end of the release lever pivot shaft. Remove the release lever pivot shaft by holding the 8 mm bolt with a pair of pliers and tapping the pliers with a hammer or prying with a screwdriver.
Remove the 4 clutch housing retaining bolts (2 at the top of the housing - 2 at the bottom)
Remove the clutch housing and release lever.

[Jase007]

Post some pics ... I'd be curooius to see and we could archive them for all the 44 owner's here. Who knows ... I might some day be crazy enough to get one of these new-er fangdangled FEWCs ... :lol:

[VaSteve]

Russelll, how's it going?

Jase, I spefically didn't take photos when I did mine. Don't want the memories!! :)

[Jase007]

Russell:

Ignore Steve.

Jase, I spefically didn't take photos when I did mine. Don't want the memories!! :) :mad: selfish.

[gogo911]

Update #2: I got the bell housing off finally last weekend. I jacked up the front of the engine under the power steering pump adjustment bolt. Jacking it up at the front lowered the rear of the engine enough to squeeze out the bell housing. It was a pain but it came out. You have to be careful not to pinch the two brake lines feeding the rear brakes as they run along the top of the torque tube tunnel inlet--which is where the top of the bell housing needs to squeeze through to come off. I also had to drop the safety clamps beneath the torque tube to drop the front of the tube to get enough clearance as I could never get the rear bell housing to clear the unibody brace.

My next job was removing the clutch which came off readily. The alignment tool I borrowed from Steve was the wrong size. Project was on hold for another week. I ordered the alignment tool, pilot bearing and rear main seal and flywheel bolts from 944Online on Monday. Parts arrived yesterday (Saturday--944Online forgot to ship it earlier in the week so they overnighted it for Sat. delivery for free). Party with Friends yesterday plus working till 1 meant no work on the project. Today, a bit fried (got home at 2 a.m. last night) but it is time to git her dun. The new alignment tool fits both old and new clutches so we are good to go. I need to figure out how to get the rear main seal off. I didn't pull the flywheel yet, but am about to do so. Pilot bearing is out--used a mini slide hammer with a bolt on it--placed the bolt head behind the back of the bearing--it worked like a charm.

Any words of wisdom on getting the rear main seal out while the engine is still in the car? Clark's Garage and elsewhere have zip to add to this effort.

Oh, the wife said she'll take pictures... so we'll start taking some pics and post accordingly. We'll take pics of what's left of the old clutch, too--it's orginal with 98k miles on it. There'll be many lessons learned here as well. I can't wait to get the old 944 back on the street. The next project will be getting the A.C. working again, but first things first.

Let me know if you have any insight into how best to remove the rear main seal. In the meantime, I am heading out to the garage....

[VaSteve]

Sorry the tool didn't fit...same one I used (I think). What part didn't fit?

Look at the 101 Projects book for how to remove RMS. I used the same technique and pounded it in with a block of wood.

[Rick V]

Like Steve mentioned just TAP the new seal in. I also like to cut up a plastic jug (like a washer solvant jug) and make a strip about 3 inches wide, and long enough to wrap around the end of the carnkshaft. Take your homemade seal tool, wrap it around the crank after putting some oil on it. Now slip the seal over the "shim" you just made. TAP the seal into place. when it is installed simply slip the shim out. This will aid you in not tearing the new seal and not slipping the spring off.
Don't force the seal, it needs to go in evenly or trouble could be afoot.
PS be carefull not to damage the crank sensor, it's wires. or the connector up top. This is easy to do when dropping the back of the engine.

[gogo911]

I like the shim idea. That's the next task as the flywheel is off and the oil is drained. I hope I didn't damage the crank sensor... I'll take a look.

[Jase007]

Russell:

Crank sensors [speed sensors, hall sensors, refernce sensors] are known to fail and typically cause a no-start b/c DME / ECU / ECM doesn't get a speed reference when starter is turning over.

On your car this sounds like an opportune time WYIT to replace the crank sensor. Don't know if you have to measure and set depth of sensor to toothed ring on flywheel or there is a magnetic pick-up or a gap in the flywheel ring but ... if you do ... this seems like an ideal time for some preventative maintenance.

FWIW I've pro-activley replaced mine on both my E30 [front of motor, easy to do, only one sensor] and E39 [back of motor under intake, access from bottom, PITA sorta] BMWs. Less than 1 "C" note for part and labor is free + and good POM [peace of mind]. :)

[gogo911]

I am in the "reassembly" stage. I have the new clutch in, new pilot bearing, new rear main seal, and I even adjusted the throw on the heater control valve so that the car isn't blasting heat all the time.

Question: now that the pressure plate is torqued down (did the criss cross tighten a little at a time across the bolts) the throw out bearing assembly has quite a bit of lateral play between the pressure plate splines. I figure this is the way it is supposed to be as I had used shims to get it to spec on the plate before the plate was fastened to the flywheel. Is having that much to and fro (lateral) play okay? The throw out bearing itself spins just fine. I need to know before I start the next phase of assembling the bell housing/ torque tube/transaxle.

This project has a life of its own. Definitely not for the feint hearted.

Thanks

[gogo911]

By the way, the plastic bottle shim idea for seating the rear main seal that Rick offered worked like a charm. Thanks Rick.

[gogo911]

Russell:

Crank sensors [speed sensors, hall sensors, refernce sensors] are known to fail and typically cause a no-start b/c DME / ECU / ECM doesn't get a speed reference when starter is turning over.

On your car this sounds like an opportune time WYIT to replace the crank sensor. Don't know if you have to measure and set depth of sensor to toothed ring on flywheel or there is a magnetic pick-up or a gap in the flywheel ring but ... if you do ... this seems like an ideal time for some preventative maintenance.

FWIW I've pro-activley replaced mine on both my E30 [front of motor, easy to do, only one sensor] and E39 [back of motor under intake, access from bottom, PITA sorta] BMWs. Less than 1 "C" note for part and labor is free + and good POM [peace of mind]. :)

Well, the car is back together and it won't start. No, I didn't buy new sensors ($180 a pop from 944online.com--this will be more like 4 c notes when shipping is added). :XX But maybe one or both went bad when I pulled them. The one way in the back was really stuck but good.

I'll double check all electrical hookups, etc. I also snapped a vacuum tube on the master cylinder while trying to get the old sensors reinstalled. I am ready to go hi order on the car, cut it up and sell it for parts. I'll keep the fuchs, though.

Any ideas on what may be wrong?

[VaSteve]

Check *all* your connections. I had an issue once where it would start for 1 second and die. I was ready to cry. Then I remember I disconnected the MAF sensor to do whatever I was doing. No issues after that.

I have bunch of those plastic "y"'s if you need one.

[Trak Ratt]

I have an extra set from the 24S if you want to verify yours are bad. 24S ran well before meeting its well deserved end in the crusher :p

[KevinOyler]

Verify the connectors for the two sensors are not reversed. Also verify you reset the sensor gaps to spec.

[gogo911]

Dave, I might take you up on your offer. Not sure of the gaps to spec as these just push right on in into the sensor holes. I noticed on the turbo and later models that Porsche got a little fancier with adjustment capabilities.

Should I try to pull them out a little bit? I am also having issues connecting the connectors... they don't want to stay connected.

[VaSteve]

Should I try to pull them out a little bit? I am also having issues connecting the connectors... they don't want to stay connected.

Mine crumbled after 21 years. I wrapped a wire tie around each and then a wire tie between the two. Even with that jerry rigging I was able to keep up with Hunt and Scott.


What does and doesn't the car do? Does it crank? Start and die? Anything?

[gogo911]

It cranks but does not fire at all. I believe I have the two sensors connected properly--even tried switching them to see what it would do--nothing but the engine cranking over.

The only thing I did differently from what I took apart was to move one of the ground connectors (for the fuel injectors maybe) that was grounded to the bellhousing back to the ground source coming out of the firewall. To keep it on the bellhousing would have been a pain to remount it as the ground connection is inaccessible on the top of the bellhousing and the lead is very short which would have meant even more wrestling with the bellhousing.

I am not very good at dealing with electrical issues.

[Dr K]

Will it roll-start? Before Matt De Maria fixed my starting problem (after 5 years of other's failing), it would sometimes not fire at all but crank all day, but it would ALWAYS roll-start. It turned out to be the flywheel sensors. Not sure what a '44 has.

Peter

[scott]

wow! this sounds familiar...the same thing happen to my brothers 944...replaced the clutch and then it would not start. It turned out to be a DME failure caused by a bad puel pressure regulator, that, over pressurized the system locking up the injectors, causing the curcuit to overlaod and actually melt solder at the DME board...why right after the clutch job? don't know... hmmm...we started witht he speed sensor...replaced it but it did not help. Make sure it is not a fuel issue vs. no Spark...then go the route of trouble shooting the problem.

I would pull an injector to see if you have fuel, or is the pump running? is it getting the signal from the DME which gets the signal from the speed sensor...the engine it has to spin at like 200 rpms on the starter to generate the approriate wave to tell the DME to send fuel and fire the injectors...Check the gap on the sensor too much and you will also not get the correct signal.

[gogo911]

Pete--I have not been able to see if it roll starts. If I roll it out of the garage, I won't be able to get it back in if it doesn't start as there is an incline on my driveway leading up to my garage.

DME failure--that would be bad. I have a "new" rebuilt DME in the car now. I'll have to see if I am getting spark and if I am getting fuel. I wonder what caused your brother's fuel pressure regulator to go bad. Did he break it while crawling all over the engine to get to the bolts on the bell housing?

I have one of the two speed sensors removed. The speed sensor marked D is located in the back and is a real bear to get out. I have it almost out. I'll have to take Dave up on his offer to borrow his 944 sensors to see if one of mine is bad.

Regarding gap, there sensor just pushes straight into the housing and is bolted directly to the housing once it seats. There's no gap check that I know of on the '84 but later models do have a different configuration requiring a gap check. Does anyone know if the '84 model requires a gap check? If so, how would I perform the gap check???

[Dr K]

Pete--I have not been able to see if it roll starts. If I roll it out of the garage, I won't be able to get it back in if it doesn't start as there is an incline on my driveway leading up to my garage.

DME failure--that would be bad. I have a "new" rebuilt DME in the car now. I'll have to see if I am getting spark and if I am getting fuel. I wonder what caused your brother's fuel pressure regulator to go bad. Did he break it while crawling all over the engine to get to the bolts on the bell housing?

I have one of the two speed sensors removed. The speed sensor marked D is located in the back and is a real bear to get out. I have it almost out. I'll have to take Dave up on his offer to borrow his 944 sensors to see if one of mine is bad.

Regarding gap, there sensor just pushes straight into the housing and is bolted directly to the housing once it seats. There's no gap check that I know of on the '84 but later models do have a different configuration requiring a gap check. Does anyone know if the '84 model requires a gap check? If so, how would I perform the gap check???I, too, have my garage at the top of a steeply sloped driveway. That's how I could always assure the car would start during those 5 years. If it still isn't starting next week, perhaps some of us could come over to help you push it back up. Or buy a winch at HF. Where do you live?

Peter

[gogo911]

Peter, that may be the thing to do. first, I'll try a replacement set of sensors to see if it does anything; I'll check fuel starvation and spark to make sure the fuel delivery and spark are working. what I need is a process of elimination map.

[gogo911]

also, with SP this weekend and a family reunion in chicago the weekend following... I am using up my wife's good will... I have had the 944 in the garage--both bays-- for a month now...I've gotta git her dun!

[gogo911]

DR and VA Steve, I've sent PMs to you. Not sure if you received them as we've been having some connectivity issues.

[Trak Ratt]

DR and VA Steve, I've sent PMs to you. Not sure if you received them as we've been having some connectivity issues.
Got mine... sorry I'm married, and wonldn't do that anyway :p Hunt or Scott might though :twisted:





















no problem with sensors but won't be at track this weekend :cry:

[good hands]

but won't be at track this weekend :cry:

damn. won't be the same without you :cry:

[SilverStreak]

damn. won't be the same without you :D :D :D :D

Scott, I fixed that for you :lol:

[gogo911]

Crap! It won't be the same without DR. Come on out. Scott said he would let you drive his slow 911.

[Trak Ratt]

damn. won't be the same without you :cry:
Still plenty to wave by boy-o :p

[gogo911]

The project is finally done. The "no start" culprit: a bad speed sensor and some tweaked connectors in the female end of the speed sensor. it felt great taking it for a quick test drive. Thanks to Dave, Steve and all the input from fellow dorkis.

I want to drive it this weekend, but I am catching a flight at o dark thirty for Chicago. Luckily, due to weather, my flight was delayed from tonight to the a.m. which gave me the time to finish the project.

The garage looks totally different now that the 944 is out and the 911 and wife's BMW are back in. It sorta looks bigger with both cars in it....naw, I still need a 5 car garage!!

If anyone is contemplating this type of project, let me know as I have many, many lessons learned.

I'll chat with ya when I return from Chi town. Time to go pack....

[VaSteve]

Congrats!! It's nice when it all works again.

[Trak Ratt]

Crap! It won't be the same without DR. Come on out. Scott said he would let you drive his slow 911.
Congrats! How long will you be gone I need my stuff back

[gogo911]

Dave, I am back. I can most likely drop your stuff off this weekend. I can leave it by your mega garage if that's okay and wrap up the tools in water tight stuff if you are not around.

Steve, I'll most likely mail your stuff back to you as that would cost less than the gas!

Thanks again, guys.