Local dealer problem?

[ecohen]

Last Tuesday morning 8 am I dropped my 996 off at a local dealer because I threw a CEL over the weekend.

When I dropped the car off I pointed out THREE things
1. No pressure under the gas cap
2. A clearly leaking vacuum line (not the hose they are replacing)
3. The CEL light.

Tuesday night I get a call saying that they won't get to the car until Wednesday.

Wednesay I get a call at 5pm saying that they will be done with the car Thursday.

Thursday at 11 am I get a call saying I need a new MAF. I asked what the error code was and they said 1128 and 1130, which is what I read before I dropped the car off.

Thursday I stop by around 2pm to see how things were going and discover that I now need a new oil filler hose. Which of course is not in stock and won't be delivered until Friday.

I asked if they had check the problem with no pressure under my gas cap and he said no, but he would look into it.

The bill so far? Over $800!!! I asked the manager WTF? He said he would explain when the car is done. Give me a break!

Is this typical of a Porsche dealer?

Ed

[howiemy]

And the dealer is?

I had a similar run around with my 964 CAB a few years back reagadring A/C problems and multiple receiver/dryers.

Sympathies

[}{arlequin]

The bill so far? Over $800!!! I asked the manager WTF? He said he would explain when the car is done.
right then and there i'd ask for the keys and say that they're done working on it. it's ridiculous but not unheard of as far as stealership work experience. sorry you're having troubles with it. any reason (other than time) that it's something you couldn't have just addressed yourself? i'm sure rennlist has solutions for all these problems described in detail....

[Vicegrip]

I can only speak for the dealer I work at but we are slammed up with cars and short on techs. Xmass brings in more work just as the techs and service writers take time off as we all do. The longer a Tech has worked the more time he tends to have off too.

[Seltzer]

I have used a private shop and a dealer. The problem with the private shop was they too never had anything in stock so it always seems to take a day or two longer than I anticipated (which is why I have a backup car). I still use the private shop for major stuff (rebuilding transmissions, etc.) and suspension work. They are expensive but not as bad as a dealer.

My wife's Cayenne is still under warrenty so obviously it goes to the dealer where we bought it. Because it was (before I retired) on my way to work, I also started using the dealer for occasional work on my '87. They have done decent work but it does cost $$$. That said, the dealer does have a two year guarentee on their parts and so I have them do things like CV boots & rotors since my car is hard on them.

Surprizingly the dealer also often doesn't have the part in stock (perhaps I need a newer car).

Oh well, P cars cost more than your average vehicle so I guess one should expect repairs to cost a bit more.

[Mike W]

I had a similar experience with a dealer.

I had an electrical problem that I already knew about. When they pointed it out I said that if they could fix it for the cost of a shop hour go ahead. Nothing more. Magically it was fixed for one shop hour in cost.

but.................suddenly a few other things didn't work that had worked before. I brought the car back. They finally fixed the new problems and told me that it took 7 hours of work (over a period of 3 days) but they would be nice and only charge me for 3 hours of work. In the end I only paid for parts, as I had only authorized 1 hour of work and had already paid for it.

Needless to say, my car never returned.

My 911 only goes to independents. When/if I get my 996, I will only take it to an independant.

Dealerships just want to screw you.

Find a good independant, create a relationship with said person, and go from there.

That said, my Jeep goes to the dealership that sold me the car, but they have always been good to me.

[Rick V]

Just a recomendation for those thinking of starting up a relationship with an indi. shop. Make sure you have access to the tech working on your car. When I refer to "my customers" I am refering to those people who only have me work on thier cars. They "most of the time" contact me before thier cars even hit the lot. We also have a de-briefing, when the car is finished. I am on a first name basis with "my" customers, and most have my cell phone number. I order most of my own parts (for them), and bypass the service writers most of the time.
It is important for the tech to know what the customer wants, how the car is driven and the type of person the car belongs to.
If the boss won't let you meet/talk to the tech, you should be cautious.

[}{arlequin]

thanks for good intel rick. personally, i've always been like that. my previous track car was just a from-the-dealer-street-car really and right off the bat i told the service manager what's up. they were cool enough to allow me to do what's reasonable, meaning stay out of the way but ok to observe what's being done to yours. worked out great.

at the same time, you should be (and at least appear) like you've been around a shop/cars. if your susp/exhaust has been worked on all day, and now the wheels have been put back on- guess what? it means the car is being dropped. soon. don't be camping out under the car and look like you know that it's about to come down. common sense. since many lack it, the big shops don't let you observe due to liability. tell them that 'you know' and they may be different.

[michael lang]

It never ceases to amaze me how hard people are on car dealerships and the stigma that no longer exists in the car business but for some reason people can't seem to let it go. The days of the plaid suit, slick talking, greased hair back used car sales person are long gone. It's okay to not got to a dealership to have work done on a car. Take Ed's situation for example, the only thing he got was a service advisor who obviously did not know how to do his job properly. Not the the dealership doesn't want to fix his car nor that the tech is trying, but if the service advisor dispatched that r.o. to the proper tech who may be better at some things than others the situation may be different. In all fairness to the tech, check engine lights can some times have false codes stored and reveal the actual failure after the initial reading is addressed. What difference is it going to make what the fault is, Ed, you obviously do not have the tools or the parts to fix it otherwise it would be in your garage instead of someone elses.
Regardless if you go to a "stealership" (you guys have absolutely no idea how much time & money & training owners have in invested in their businesses) or you go to an independant, the same thing remains to be true. It's all about the relationship you have with the person you leave your car with. Mike could not have said it better "That said, my Jeep go to the dealership that sold me the car, but they have always been good to me." Wait, just two sentences earlier he said "Dealerships just want to screw you." My point is, work on the relationship and I guarantee your quality of work will increase dramatically, It doesn't matter if it is with this current repair facility or another one. Good luck!

[Redroc]

The one thing I've found about individual shops is that the person you are usually dealing with is an owner or part-owner of the shop. They seem to have a bit more interest in making sure the customer is happy. I don't have any experience with local Porsche dealers, but I haven't had very good luck with local VW dealers. The independent VW shops were nicer to deal with and did better work in almost all instances. Stan at RPM and Grant at ABS (BMW shop) are good examples of this. Stan talks me out of doing extra work half the time.

[lpsalsaman]

Quote from Redroc:

The one thing I've found about individual shops is that the person you are usually dealing with is an owner or part-owner of the shop. They seem to have a bit more interest in making sure the customer is happy.

The above is very true, as I found out years ago dealing with the old Manasas BMW dealer. I took my 318I to have a "service" done which is their way of saying tune up and after it was done I was driving back to Vint Hill Farms Station. Just before I got to the base gate my car started to hesitate big time! At that time I lived in the barracks and had no tools, so I contacted my brother who was station in Ft. Meade and he brougth his tools with him. He found that the plugs were the old ones and plug # 3 was shot. I went to the dealer and went off on them, after they corrected the problem I never took the card back. I found a independant BMW specialist in Warrenton and he worked on my car from that time on. He was the owner of the place and did execellent work, my car never had any issues after that. So yes, independants at least try to be more attentive to you since they want your business.

[John Clay]

I don't think it's so much dealership vs. independent, rather large shop vs. small. It's more difficult for the large shop owners to keep tabs on things and unless you know who is actually working on your car (i.e. what Rick said) you don't know what quality you are getting.

That being said, I think there are dealerships (and perhaps independents) who, as a matter of company policy, will try to perform unecessary work.

A long time ago I took my Toyota truck to the closest dealer (in Gaithersburg) and mentioned my clutch had a squeek. Service writer said it needed a new clutch. A girl I worked with's brother was a tech at Jim Coleman Toyota. I took it to him, he put some grease somewhere, and the clutch was fine for the life of the truck. I ended up selling the truck to the tech at Jim Coleman when it started to have rust issues.

I've only used Jim Coleman for dealership work since then, except for a period when the tech was working at a gas station, then I went to the gas station.

Pam didn't want to make the drive to Bethesda once for the Sienna. I told her she can go to the closest dealership, but I'm not dealing with them. She went, they tried to get her to do service items way before the owners manual called for them, now she won't go back either.

[Mike W]

It Wait, just two sentences earlier he said "Dealerships just want to screw you."


Um, yeah.

Context is important online. One positive experience does not retract my statement.

I'll add that one should not be required to have a buddy in the shop to not get ripped off. Not getting ripped off is the proper thing to do. Idealistic, yes, still correct.

Ed, moral of the story is never go back to where your car is. Take it to one of the many shops people mention here and say ______________ sent me. Matt De Maria is on this board, and you can just say you are a dorki. Rick is on this board too, but a trip to Charlottsville may be a bit far ;)

[BlackTalon]

I think it's hard to 'build a relationship' with a tech/ shop when your car is fairly new, as you'll normally only be taking it in for routine service (one a year?) or when some fancy electrical gadget breaks.

My experiences with dealerships the last couple years do not match up with what Michael is saying -- I'm sure a large part of it relates to the brand of car. I found Alexandria Toyota to be fairly decent, but my very limited experience with Volvo dealerships has not been so favorable. Good luck becomeing 'friends' with a tech at a dealership, and getting him to always work on your car; it's very rare to establish a relationship like that. The Underwriters run interference, so you are stuck dealing with them. I've made detailed lists of what I want done and not done, and had good results during some visits and not so good during others. Often the techs do what they think is best, even if it's not something you wanted done (i.e., like running software updates that are known to be buggy), and then you get charged for it even though you didn't want it. And I know a guy who was a dealership mechanic until about 2 years ago -- he's told me loads of stories about how guys took shortcuts, reused bad parts, etc. Hey -- many mechanics are paid by completed item, so they have incentive to cut corners and jam stuff out the door. And in most instances I don't think the shop managers are diligent about double-checking the work.

And sadly, many dealerships still have salesmen with slicked-back hair running around. I've experienced it firsthand.

Michael, I'm glad you work at a dealership that operates at a higher level. it's nice to know there are some places like that out there. But I don't think it's the norm.

[VaSteve]

Quote from Redroc:



The above is very true, as I found out years ago dealing with the old Manasas BMW dealer. I took my 318I to have a "service" done which is their way of saying tune up and after it was done I was driving back to Vint Hill Farms Station. Just before I got to the base gate my car started to hesitate big time! At that time I lived in the barracks and had no tools, so I contacted my brother who was station in Ft. Meade and he brougth his tools with him. He found that the plugs were the old ones and plug # 3 was shot. I went to the dealer and went off on them, after they corrected the problem I never took the card back. I found a independant BMW specialist in Warrenton and he worked on my car from that time on. He was the owner of the place and did execellent work, my car never had any issues after that. So yes, independants at least try to be more attentive to you since they want your business.


Tony....which Manassas BMW dealer? There's one that sells only used (advantage)... I know of no others. Vint Hill Farms is right around the corner from me. They are making it into a mixed use community (work, housing, theater). Pretty cool.

[Vicegrip]

(Just my TD long opinion on a slow afternoon. It is hard to get anything done at this end of the year.) The key to any service, cars, toasters or TV sets is communication. You have a problem big or small? Voice it in clear form. Both independent and dealer want to make you go away happy after paying your bill. Doing that and doing it every time is a bitch for both. Independent might shoot the shit and talk about the kids with you while standing next to your car in the shops lot but be assured he will cut to the chase if you don't pay up when it is time or well past time. Independent shops are better set for off the norm service such as needed for DE, older cars and the like. Porsche dealers are better set up by Porsche AG to care for the newer cars and to be right up to date on recalls and TSBs. Porsche requires the techs to be plugged into direct from and to Porsche closed internet. Stunning amount of detailed info, right there and current.
Some dealers including the one I work on have the CSI index that the service writers are paid by. They are paid on how well they keep you happy so you will come back. Independent shops keep you happy to get you to come back too. Service writers CSI drops his/her pay does too. Independent shop pisses you off you don't come back and you tell you friends not to ether. As Tech Chair and just a Porsche owner I have heard horror stories about every shop in the area, dealer or independent. I have seen stuff happen at my dealership that ticked me off as well as 4 digit good will money going out that truly impressed me. (Our truly helpful Matt D is ALONE in everything I have personally ever heard about his work has been positive) I have also listened to PCA members tell me how shitty they were treated by this shop or that dealer and did not feel the same indignation as they did. A time or two out of many I only ended up thinking how glad I was glad not having to deal with that princess. There are also shops in the tri state area that I would not take a broken tricycle to. One pissed client, well based or not, throwing down a real bad report can kill a dealer service writers CSI #s and kick him right square in the paycheck. That said they are not as in full control of the work or the shop as an independent is so there is good and bad to ether service source. Slow to repair or not done on time? Hook up a loaner. Have a good experience with a service writer and mechanic combo? Ask for them and them only. You might have to wait a day or two more for an appointment but you can get the wrench you want at a dealer too.
I have to deal with service vendors and supply companies every day. Stupid or Sloppy or Slow happens and quite often from my perspective. Talk to the guy and let him know what it is that you are not cool with and move up the ladder if need be. That’s what I dislike to but sometimes have to do. I keep moving up and get calmer and more reasonable but insistent and fact backed as I go. (When I hit an impasse and i know I am right and backed by facts with a first rung person I sometimes deploy the “Piss off and jack up the low guy" tack. Call back and hoook the next guy up and be a cool, collected and focused person when I talk to him after first line guy had chance to run and whine first. Makes the first guy look stupid for not helping me right in the first place and you can bet your ass he will jump the next time)
As with any dealing I try and keep in mind that there are humans on both ends of the phone. The one on the other end just might be a frigging dumbass. Be cool and clear and keep the dumbass on the other end. ;) One thing to keep in mind in a dealership you are looking to get something done right or extra from a person that is not going to loose money for getting you better or more service for you. The independent is 100% out of pocket if he charges less or gives out good will $.

All shops want your money and exist for that reason. Don’t let a buddy buddy smile or a fancy wait room fool you. “Friends come and go but enemies accumulate” All the shops seem to have plenty of both.

[VaSteve]

Some dealers including the one I work on have the CSI index that the service writers are paid by. They are paid on how well they keep you happy so you will come back. Independent shops keep you happy to get you to come back too. Service writers CSI drops his/her pay does too.

"anything less than 5 is failing"

They make sure and tell me that at both BMW dealers I go to. I let them know up front that I heard that the last time and I will give them all 5's if I'm happy (and I do). One time, they did something that ticked me off (I don't even recall what it was at this point), and I told them point blank I was unhappy and they wouldn't get all 5's. The manager leaped out of his office and was standing next to me apologizing.

Although I don't agree with them telling me about the importance of 5's (I never rate anything at the polar ends of the spectrum) I understand how they are measured and will accommodate.

I had a local body shop do some work and they scratched the car in the final prep. When they did their independent phone survey, I told them I was unhappy that they scratched the paint and didn't attach some trim properly. (I had already addressed both issues) Boy oh boy, the next day I got a call from the manager "please bring it in and we'll fix it, make it right, whatever..." That made me happy and if (i have to ) use their service again, I will.

I got a holiday card from one of the local Porsche shops where I did a grand total of $110 business this past year. While I don't know if that will sway my decision about going in there again, I do recognize the value of the recognition. Similar to what Kurt says above....nobody is in the car business or toaster business or computer business. They are in the customer service business and happen to sell cars, toasters or computers.

[Jazzbass]

I do recognize the value of the recognition.
Conversely, I value the recognition of value.

[VaSteve]

Conversely, I value the recognition of value.

:lol: Sometimes I am amazed at the crap that comes out of my keyboard. I'm blaming the Dayquil high on this one...

[MBuck951]

That said, my Jeep goes to the dealership that sold me the car, but they have always been good to me.


That works great, until your dealership is sold. Thank you Browns' Chantilly Dodge. Or should I say, the former Browns' Chantilly Dodge. I am now an "orphan" when it comes to warranty work on my truck. Thankfully I've never had a huge problem (knock on wood), but I don't know where I'll go if and when I do.

The 5-star dealer near me sucks. I went in there and they told me I had no warranty and that I didn't even own the truck. I'm like, I own it outright, look at the title! So I leave and make all kinds of phone calls all over. Day later I walk in and point out they copied my VIN down wrong into their computer. Talk about not going even beyond the absolute minimum to get things right. They just assumed I was full of it. Never thought maybe they had made a mistake worth double checking. The pompous attitude just erks me. The 5-stars are supposed to be the best dealer service units :roll:

[Vicegrip]

Conversely, I value the recognition of value. :)


:lol: Sometimes I am amazed at the crap that comes out of my keyboard. I'm blaming the Dayquil high on this one... Don't sell your self short, reads as well said to me and better than my blather. but could be that i am slammed on codeine too! ;)


Too bad that any shop or dealer has to have a CSI system rather than everyone being good at what they do the first time every time. It is one way that the top end of a company can compel the bottom end to do the work the way it should be done. In a indi shop the top and the bottom are much closer and that is good and at a dealer there might be someone else for you to talk to which is good when you hit a hard snag. Both have their values and drawbacks. One good thing is that in this area we have a good long list to pick from and can go where we see fit. Some areas have only bubba service stations and a single dealer 100+ miles away.

[ecohen]

Well here is the update... After a brief discussion with them, I got the bill significantly reduced because a good chunk of the work was covered by my extended warranty. This is still no excuse for the days of delay..

Now here is the kicker... I was SO angry at the dealer I decided to see what my car was worth as a trade it. I now know that my car has been repainted in sections which this dealer denied when I purchased the car a couple of years ago. I don't mind the repaint as much as I do the dealer not being upfront about it. The car does shine....

I am sending them a long letter outlining the problems. Once I hear back, ill be glad to let everyone know what they do, if anything.

Ed

[michael lang]

I'm truly sorry that the mass opinion here of a car dealership is not very favorable. Kurt nailed it, as a service writer, an extremely large portion of my income is based on that "survey" so it is in my best interest to do well. Unfortunately, I too have to remind my clients of it and to ask that it be completed with all "excellent" responses and for it to be returned. It is both part of my income & a condition of employment at my dealership. Like it or not, I have to live with it if I want to work at my dealership. I guess I'm doing okay since I handle both Mercedes and Maybach. I don't think Ed started this thread for it to be a dealership vs. independent shop controversy. I believe he started it to try and figure out what to do with his car. Ed, I don't work at a Porsche dealership, nor do I know anyone other than Kurt that does. I do know my way around a car dealership and who to talk to and what to say. You are more than welcome to call me if you think I may be able to help you in any way. I can be reached @ 301.215.5463.

[racer]

I don't mind giving a "5" if deserved. However, I don't appreciate being asked/suggested/told how to respond. If for that reason only I sometimes don't give a 5. I find it equivalent to a waiter telling me how much to tip them.

[Vicegrip]

I too find it mildly offensive that the service provider would resort to telling you how to vote. The #s are now so skewed to the top 5% that real meaning can't be extracted for them any longer and the poor folks that live by them almost have to do this. The other guys are doing it and even if you are giving the same level of service you have to do so as well just to make the #s match. Grade inflation in the real world.
I hope that folks don't think I am the stock excuse generator for Dealerships because I work for one. I am not and do not. Around my shop I do not have any control about what happens other than keeping the lights on, the air temps just right and the equipment working and safe. I have NO input as to how things are run and little knowledge of the systems and methods. I do like to look at the differences in shops and as part of a group dispel misconceptions that are floating around. Please feel free to speak about my shop as bluntly as you like without worry.

[VaSteve]

I don't mind giving a "5" if deserved. However, I don't appreciate being asked/suggested/told how to respond. If for that reason only I sometimes don't give a 5. I find it equivalent to a waiter telling me how much to tip them.

I too find it mildly offensive that the service provider would resort to telling you how to vote. The #s are now so skewed to the top 5% that real meaning can't be extracted for them any longer and the poor folks that live by them almost have to do this. The other guys are doing it and even if you are giving the same level of service you have to do so as well just to make the #s match. Grade inflation in the real world.



Yeah I find it silly as well, but since I know that's how the game is played and that the real numbers are meaningless, I play along. Like I said, absent any guidance, I would vote my usual way (like I do for seminar evals, and job performance reveiws), which means you better walk on water to get the top rating.

[berettafan]

Sounds like RickV has it figured out. When you're billing somebody p-car hourly rates you need to be the one to extend yourself and learn more about the car (and customer) in question.

The notion of the customer having to trouble himself to 'build a relationship' with the tech or svc manager is bullshit. For $70-$200/hr i expect a tour of my car after the work has been done and a summary of how it went. It's not MY job to make you want to work harder on my car. I pay the bill, treat you like a human being and you do the effin' job. I don't know where this attitude is coming from but i see it in others as well. A carpenter friend of mine has the same attitude. here's my bill shut up and pay it, is his attitude. i ask him why he doesn't feel customer service is important and he just tells me the job is done correctly what else is there.

Yet another issue i have with most garages, both private and dealer, is that once an initial diagnosis is made that is ALL they will look at. It's like tunnel vision sets in and cost be damned they are going to throw everything they can at that one initial diagnosis without THINKING of what else could be at fault. Useless monkeys that have been taught to follow a repair manual.

[berettafan]

And perhaps the current and former dealership guys here can explain the warranty game that dealers play to maximize income/profits.

[OldTee]

Please feel free to speak about my shop as bluntly as you like without worry. [/FONT]

Yeah, OK. Your TV is blurry. :)
ARF

[Dr K]

Some of this has to do with expectations. When I bring my Prius in for routine service, a warrantee repair, or a recall, Coleman Toyota fixes it right, hands me the bill (often $0), and doesn't explain much even when I ask. When I bring my car to IMA (thank God not too often), Ivan or Chris will go over every item on the bill, explain what was done and why, show me parts (Ivan even spent 25 minutes going over half the parts in my transmission with me once to show me the very subtle abnormalities which, when fixed, improved shifting 100%). I'm happy with both.

One is a new car with very little I can do on it due to
(1) 8 year warrantee,
(2) 500 V,
(3) almost everything microprocessor-driven, and
(4) a great warrantee where I rarely pay for repairs (actually, NEVER in 3 years paid anything but routine maintenance, and a reasonable rate).

The other is a 20-year-old car
(1) that has had some less-than-perfect repairs in the past by shops I no longer use,
(2) which I'm trying to learn to do some stuff myself,
(3) which is all about precision and tolerances, and
(4) which I drive VERY fast (okay, not all that fast but I'm learning) and upon which I must rely to not bite me when doing that.

Do I pay more for the Porsche repairs? YOU BET! Would I take the P-car to a shop like Coleman where they don't show me stuff? No way! Am I happy with both shops for what they do? Yes I am. Do I sound like Donald Rumsfeld? Of course. :p

[michael lang]

So Ed, getting back to topic, how are things going for your 996? What was the end result, or have you gotten there yet?

[ecohen]

So Ed, getting back to topic, how are things going for your 996? What was the end result, or have you gotten there yet?


Silence..... No response yet from the dealer..... I am going to stop by this weekend and talk with them in person.

I was reading some of these responses and I really did not mean to start a dealer vs independent debate or even saying one is better than the other. I have had and continue to have good and bad experiences with both dealers and private shops.

However, at a dealer I expect to pay a premium for someone who knows what they are doing above and beyond what your local garage might know. What I don't like is paying a premium for mistakes or for a car that has been mis-represented to me. These people should know better.

Personally, I think the service manager thing is a bad idea. It has turned the auto repair industry into an HMO by keeping the customer away from the person who is doing the work. This to me is the real difference between having "your" mechanic vs going to a dealership. In my warped world, the service manager either needs to be a mechanic with some people skills or they need to just do the introduction to the mechanic and call me when my car is done. I don't go to a dealership to drink coffee or be offered a bunch of services I don't need. I go to a dealership to have something difficult done by someone who knows what they are doing.


Ed

[Rick Lee]

I was offered a job at Audi of Alexandria years ago as a service advisor. When they said I'd easily make $60k my first year, I asked them how that was possible, since the job bascally required a hs diploma and some car knowledge. They explained the whole CSI thing to me. A very big chunk of their pay is CSI bonus AND they bill Audi corporate 3x whatever the book says a job takes. So if the book says an oil change takes an hour, as warranty work, its billed at 3 hours. The customer doesn't care since they ain't paying the bill. As long as the car comes back in shiny condition and they don't owe a dime, the CSI rating usually comes back high. I would guess they knock a little off for non-warranty work.

Just by coincidence, a few weeks later, I called Stan at RPM to get an appt. for some 911 work that I didn't have time to DIY. Stan said he was booked solid for a while because of all the Audis the Alexandria dealership was sending him. That got my attention and I asked him all about it.

Turns out the dealership farmed out or referred their large-ticket, non-warranty work to indies, so as not to piss off their customers with a phat repair bill and risk a bad CSI rating. Basically, the dealership only wants warranty work, since there's little chance of pissing off a customer with that and getting a bad CSI rating. I can't really tell if there's anything wrong with that, since I always thought RPM was far better than going to any dealer. So no one really loses there.

But I think Porsche dealerships would do well to just tell people like us older 911 owners that they want nothing to do with our cars and to just take them to an indie shop, rather than to insist a squishy clutch pedal on an '83 911 just needs to be bled (yes, this really happened) or ask me if I would mind sourcing my own set of H4 assemblies because they couldn't find them (also happened). But I would expect them to still be on top of 996's, though I'd still never ever go to a dealer for non-warranty work on any car.

[cmartin]

I feel for your guys. I have never, and buy the sound of this thread, will never take a car to a dealer for service.

I cant offer any help, but if it were me I wouldnt be so kind and would make it well known if/when said shop treated you unfairly.


Best of luck!

[berettafan]

I was offered a job at Audi of Alexandria years ago as a service advisor. When they said I'd easily make $60k my first year, I asked them how that was possible, since the job bascally required a hs diploma and some car knowledge. They explained the whole CSI thing to me. A very big chunk of their pay is CSI bonus AND they bill Audi corporate 3x whatever the book says a job takes. So if the book says an oil change takes an hour, as warranty work, its billed at 3 hours. The customer doesn't care since they ain't paying the bill. As long as the car comes back in shiny condition and they don't owe a dime, the CSI rating usually comes back high. I would guess they knock a little off for non-warranty work.

Just by coincidence, a few weeks later, I called Stan at RPM to get an appt. for some 911 work that I didn't have time to DIY. Stan said he was booked solid for a while because of all the Audis the Alexandria dealership was sending him. That got my attention and I asked him all about it.

Turns out the dealership farmed out or referred their large-ticket, non-warranty work to indies, so as not to piss off their customers with a phat repair bill and risk a bad CSI rating. Basically, the dealership only wants warranty work, since there's little chance of pissing off a customer with that and getting a bad CSI rating. I can't really tell if there's anything wrong with that, since I always thought RPM was far better than going to any dealer. So no one really loses there.

But I think Porsche dealerships would do well to just tell people like us older 911 owners that they want nothing to do with our cars and to just take them to an indie shop, rather than to insist a squishy clutch pedal on an '83 911 just needs to be bled (yes, this really happened) or ask me if I would mind sourcing my own set of H4 assemblies because they couldn't find them (also happened). But I would expect them to still be on top of 996's, though I'd still never ever go to a dealer for non-warranty work on any car.




And that's our lesson on how the system really works in dealership land. Next week we will try to find a Dr. who can explain how it all works in hospital/insurance company land (hint: pretty much the same).

[Vicegrip]

And that's our lesson on how the system really works in dealership land. Next week we will try to find a Dr. who can explain how it all works in hospital/insurance company land (hint: pretty much the same).
It is? You walk away with a full understanding of a system from a job interview?

If the dealers are rooking the owners so bad how come the independents charge from the same hour rate book and at + or - the same hourly rate? The mechanics I know hate Porsche warranty work. Porsche knows what a job takes and only pay out for that amount of time. You can't charge more than book to Porsche they will not pay it. Not 2X not 3X. I don't know how Audi would pay 3X for warranty work but I am also not in the know about such things.
As I said I am not defending the indefensible but lets keep it on a reality based track. I for one am glad that I don't have to take ANY of my cars to ANY shop EVER unless I want to for a reason and even then I am armed with an idea of what I want done.
I have heard stories about ALL the shops in the local area. From sloppy work and bad follow up by the shop owners to outright fraud with the intent of taking the $ and property from the car owner. No one is Lilly white in this business.

You name the Shop A to Z and I can tell you a facts only story about a Porsche owner that got Fucked Over by them. (Matt excluded)


My own recent dealing with shops. I was looking into coil over susp for the car I am building and called 2 shops that sell and service the brand I was thinking about. I had a $10K susp budget to work with and let both shops know this. I was looking foward to being able to pay to have some pro hands on the complex parts too. One shop listened to what I was looking for, felt it was on target with a tweek or two and said they would get back to me in a day or two with a $ quote. The other shop listened to what I had in mind but did now listen to the $10K part and even in the first over the phone conversation was insisting on more materals that would take the work well over budget. $10K can get a usable coil over sups that is 95% of the works. The other 5% costs the other 200%. I was looking for a 95% system not the 200% system. I called the second shop back the next day and said "Thanks but no thanks" I never heard back from the first shop which is fine for my part but very bad busness on their part. They did not respons to $10K worth of parts and work. I was not looking for a hookup just the parts and tuning.
1/2 the fun for me is the learning and from my hands part. I was a little ticked just from the 2 calls to shops and that set my mind to the fact that I am doing this for fun and dealing with others might make a better car but it will not make it more fun. My car might turn out a pile of crap it might turn out well. (I suspect it will be somewhere in the middle) This is why I am going the total in house route to learn and have some fun while at it. Failure to think about maitaining a budget even from the start or failure to even call back was what I got when I dipped a toe into the shop pool.

[Rick Lee]

I'm not saying that's how all dealers work, but that 3x book rate is most definitely how it was explained to me. And some other dealers may not allow 3x book rate for warranty work, but they may actually allow something close. I did date a girl once with a Boxster who told me a dealer wanted $450 for an oil change. I did it for her and I think she spent about $50 on the Mobil 1. Having never touched a Boxster before, I was still able to do it in about 15 min. So what's the other $400 for that the dealer charges?

When I took my BMW to the dealer in Sterling for warranty work, it's made pretty clear there that anything less than a 5 for CSI is a failure.

[Vicegrip]

Sounds like he was shining you up for the job. Rules are not set by the dealer they are set by the auto maker. A dealer can't just charge the auto maker what it wants to, period. The auto maker is not stupid. Was the $450 only an oil change or was it part of a service? Some other dealers in the area charge about half that for a change with M1 and all filters and seals and even less if it is part of another service. You also get it back hand washed.

My brother knew a guy that had a car that he took to a shop and they said.... There is so much heat in this type of conversation that all kinds of stuff bubbles up. What is real and what just sounds real?

[berettafan]

Kurt if you go to your boss wanting a $5k raise how much do you ask for?

Not $5k.

Maybe $8k?

See?

I know for fact there are people in the medical biz who make a good living teaching docs how to tweak their billing to get the most out of insurance co's. I strongly suspect this is no different from what goes on (and Rick confirmed it more or less) in the auto-warranty work racket as well.

Need another example? How about major national homebuilders. If you've ever known someone unfortunate enough to own a Ryan home (like myself) they can probably tell you stories about entire systems being replaced on a whim by subs. Our toiled needed adjustment. Svc. rep called plumber who says 'replace entire shitter'. Guess what pays more, replacing the entire shitter or tweaking the bulb thingy? Cabinet has cracked door; svc rep calls cabinet rep and guess what? Entire new cabinet. Guess what the cabinet rep figured out........more bux on an entire cabinet than just the door.

The situation is created when employees (subs, svc manager, doc) are given an incentive and opportunity to 'upsell' without adequate supervision.

The shame of it all is the end result. Inflation.

[berettafan]

BTW Kurt, send a PM to SCnut. I believe he found a suspension guru that was below market pricing and knew his stuff.

[Lupin..the..3rd]

If you've ever known someone unfortunate enough to own a Ryan home (like myself) they can probably tell you stories about entire systems being replaced on a whim by subs.

I bought one about a year ago and found the exact same thing. Kitchen cabinets were all torn out and replaced for reasons unknown. Same with all the carpeting in the whole house (!!). In fact, during my final "walkthrough", I opened the front door with the Ryan guy and found some workers tearing up all the carpeting. I was like "WTF??" and the carpeting guys said they were "repairing" the flaws in it from the previous walkthrough. There wasn't a single square foot that was left intact.

Another example, in VW land, is the TDI diesel cars. Just as a point of reference, the diesel injection pump is a $1500 part, the cyl head is $900, and the turbo is also about $900. These are the three most expensive parts on the engine. Over on the tdiclub.com forums, I cant even count how many times someone has taken the car to the dealer because it wasn't running right, and the dealer has replaced one or more of these $$$ parts under warranty. 98 times in 100, the problem was likely clogged filters, bad fuel, dirty injectors, or other easy fixes, but instead they changed out major high-$$$, high-labor parts, presumably to charge the cost to VW as warranty work.

How do folks get away with this kind of blatent stuff??

[berettafan]

George one of my neighbors has all new carpet and quite a bit of new drywall because rain leaked into his house BIG time. We're talking inches on the floor. He told me they actually drilled a hole in his bottom floor to drain the water into his crawlspace in order to pump out via sump.

If they're still building in your neighborhood find the svc rep and ask him if they have any cabinets that have been replaced that you can have for your garage. I have 1 lovely maple wall cabinet in my garage thanks to this.

[ecohen]

The saga continues...

I got a call back from the service manager regarding the body work on my car. He says that they have no record of ever doing anything to the car.

So what do you think the odds are that they purchased a car that had been repainted and didn't know about it? My guess is something less than zero..

Ed

[Rick V]

Ok I have been thinking about this thread for a while and I will do my best to explain the way a dealership works, from a wrenches point of view.
The dealership is ultimatly owned by the manufacturer, I say this because the manu. has the ultimate say as to what happens there. If they want bushes planted in the loby they get it or else............they pull the cars out. It doesn't matter who owns the biz, or the building.
The service manager runs the entire service area, he/she is the one who gets yelled at by the customer, the service advisers, the wrenches, and the folks in the wash bay. Why they do this job is beyond me, thier isn't enough money in the world for this type of, long houred job.
The srevice advisor is the person who greets the customer, and gives the wrenches the ro's. (repair order). They get yelled at by the customer, before the customer gets to the service manager. This person is a warm up for the customer, to get them primed for the boss. The service advisor then goes into the shop and jumps down the back of the wrench. This isn't a bright move............we are greasy........we have large, heavy tools, and a killer grip. This confrontation is short. The service manager, smooths over the customer, with BS or the truth, This is up to the person.
The manu. is the reason this tone lives in the dealership.
The wrench is paid on a flat rate scale (most of the time). There is an incentive to put 15-20 hours of work out the door, every day.............but wait, the manu. won't let that happen. They will only pay a certian time for a given repiar, and moniter this very closely. They make sure that a tech can only get paid for 8 hours of work in an 8 hour day. (I'm refering to warrante work, customer pay is a whole new ball game). After a couple of years of this the wrench becomes bitter, and feels like since the manu. doesn't care weather they eat or not, they will stop caring about the cars they work on.
The service maniger is suposed to keep this feeling from taking over the shop, but it doesn't happen. Hours start to fall off. The cure for this is to bring in more wrenches, this only furthers the anger, since the paycheck of all the wrenches suffers. The shop turns more hours but devides them between more people. Us greasy folks are just numbers. Bean counters hate us, since we don't care we voice our opinions, usually not in a good way. Don't forget we are portable, and we know it.
The service writer, the person in the middle, suffers the most. They get paid on the work of other people, and the CSI, of the customer. That is just wrong, but the manu. is the reason. I have just scratched the surface of the workings of the place that takes care of your cars. It all comes down to money, and who gets it.
It is too bad the person that the dealership is here for, the customer, doesn't understand. Instead of blaming the dealership (unless you an point a finger at 1 person) you might want to take a shot at the manu. there is a number in the owners manual. It can be called and you can question the way they have thier dealership setup.
I might also add that the wrench has to buy all of his wrenches, and brother that is more money than you could imagine. I myself could have a GT3 for what I have invested in tools.
Sorry for the TD-like post, it must be a 944 thing.

[michael lang]

Rick has only scratched the surface, it is so obvious how this can be debated until the end of time. Dealerships & independants all have their place in the economy. Some are good for it some are not. I get refferals from alot of Mercedes independant shops in Mont. Co. & I give them the same courtesy, it all depends on the situation the customer is in at that time.

Ed, it is very possible that the selling dealer has no knowledge that you're car had been painted previously. There are so many different sources that your car came from before you bought it. There's auction, there's trade-in, there's wholesalers, so many different places that they could have bought your car before it was sold to you. Now, that being said, how many hands do you think your car went through before you got it and how many people before you forgot to say to the dealer that they have had or had knowledge of paint work being performed? It's limitless, believe it or not, there are alot people that will "forget" to say there was paint work done to a car. I am in no way defending the dealership that has your car I'm simply pointing out to you that it is possible they are telling you the truth. If you still don't believe them, ask to review the deal file, that will tell you everything that they know about your car in relation to the deal specifics.

Good luck!

[berettafan]

Was looking at V70 wagons a few months ago and was surprised to find out the Volvo dealer actually has a guy that hits the auctions looking for certain vehicles for the used lot. Most of the used car types i've spoken with will at least claim to be very sharp about spotting repairs and quickly evaluating a car.

The sleazier ones will also be experts at covering up past repairs so the next buyer doesn't see them. These types can often be identified by the presence of gerry curl juice on every inch of plastic and rubber on the cars they have on hand.

[Trak Ratt]

If you’ve phrased you question and their answer accurately it could be true. They said: ... I got a call back from the service manager regarding the body work on my car. He says that they have no record of ever doing anything to the car... Ed
Nothing about someone else doing work. One reason why some dealers don’t have body shops or inspection stations. :bang: Did you try a CarMax or what ever it called ??

[Don Wohlfarth]

Was looking at V70 wagons a few months ago and was surprised to find out the Volvo dealer actually has a guy that hits the auctions looking for certain vehicles for the used lot. Most of the used car types i've spoken with will at least claim to be very sharp about spotting repairs and quickly evaluating a car.
I'm not sure I agree 100% about spotting repairs, maybe 75% of the time. ;)
If the gaps are pretty much correct, everything fits properly including the trim, the paint matches, no sign of overspray, I say it "can" be difficult to spot repair taking a couple minute walk around a car.
I do agree that the guys that buy cars at auctions can be pretty sharp, that's their job. It's the little things that give repair work away.
It's also possible the car was damaged on delivery to the dealer who should disclose that on the sale of that car, which may or may not happen.

[OldTee]

Somebody believes a car salesman? Who is he/she? A very rare person, indeed.

In todays society it seems that truth, integrity, honesty and business fair play is rare. When we find it we should raise the name of the person, company, and not keep it to ourselves. Same goes double time for the crooks, snakes, cheaters and liars. Why is it I believe our kids are taught from the beginning that that is the way it should be. Grade inflation, OK cheating, shortcutting, impenitent teachers, unsupportive administrations all combine to teach from frist grade on the way to succeed.
ARF

[Lupin..the..3rd]

It's also possible the car was damaged on delivery
Hey, at least a cargo container didn't fall on it! ;)

[Jazzbass]

That'll buff right out.

[berettafan]

, unsupportive administrations all combine to teach from frist grade on the way to succeed.
ARF



Effin A MAN!:mad:

Wife is a teacher and it really is an issue that starts from the top (no child left behind....)

[ecohen]

I am sorry to report that over the weekend I got so disgusted that I traded the car in.

Although the 996 was a wonderful car, the combination of not being able to do the work myself, having a seriously questionable history with 70k+ miles and yet another issue on Friday made me think I was going to continue to have nothing but problems. I am now the owner of a much slower, more comfortable, less exciting CLK 320.

Ed

[BlackTalon]

Ed -- sorry to hear about all your problems. Good thing you didn't post about wanting a slower, more comfortable car though -- TD and VaSteve would have tried to talk you into a NA 944 :-)

[Dr K]

Perhaps you should have posted the "trade in" price here, and seen if one of us would beat it...

[Trak Ratt]

Ed -- sorry to hear about all your problems. Good thing you didn't post about wanting a slower, more comfortable car though -- TD and VaSteve would have tried to talk you into a NA 944 :-)Go with a 931 bro!! Plenty of posting opportunities :(

[ecohen]

Perhaps you should have posted the "trade in" price here, and seen if one of us would beat it...


You know, I have had the car for sale here for quite some time. If I had known all of the issues that were about to happen, I would have never advertised it. I feel much better about leaving it at a dealer and letting them either wholesale it or fix it instead of selling it to someone I know here.

So a word of warning, if you see this car: http://homepage.mac.com/developered/p996/p996.html

It is probably a really good deal, but be sure you know what you are getting into.

Ed

[Jase007]

Ed:

Sorry they couldn't deliver any "satisfaction" so you could stay in the P-car.

Perhaps we need a "beware of this car" sub-forum where pics and VIN#s could be posted ... anonymously of course ;) :lol:

[michael lang]

Ed sorry to see things didn't work out for you in the end with your 996. It is not as performance oriented car as your 996 but I think your 209 (clk) will be a very good car. Alot more user friendly than your 996. Congratulations on your purchase.

[berettafan]

Well with MB's stellar record for quality, particularly in the newer models, you should be a much happier camper. ;)

[berettafan]

And KUDOS to you for not dumping a problem child on the enthusiast market!!

[RENN 951]

At this point, do you care to say which dealer was involved?

[ecohen]

Sure....

The dealer was HBL and to make things even more interesting, my 996 is sitting in front of the show room.

Feel free to stop by and ask them all kinds of questions about it. Take it for a test drive, enjoy it! Its a really nice car!

In summary, they did the right thing by me. They gave me more than blue book for my car and sold me another for less than blue book. I know its just a numbers game and a dealer never loses money, but at least I don't feel like I was taken. Although I would have loved to have kept that 996, I am happy for now with my CLK. It is kind of like sitting in your living room, but you go places. You are totally oblivious to the outside world, road conditions or anything that might distract you from the sound system.

Ed