Thinking of a FEWC.. some guidance please

[racer]

With the 911 sold, I am thinking that my next Porsche might be a FEWC (Front Engine Water Cooler). This would be my first FEWC after years (decades?!) of aircooled Porsche exposure/experience.

The car would be N/A so, 924S, 944, 944S, 944S2 or 968. (or, if really adventurous, I guess it could be a 928, but.. thinking more of a 4-cyl)

I have always been told to go for the "newest and nicest" you can afford. Given the many mechanical similarities between the models, are there certain ones to simply avoid? Are there certain ones that are prefered?

I am not looking for a $500 beater to spend all my time on fixing. While I would prefer a car with less than 100,000 miles, I realize that may not happen given the age of the models, and therefore records are a must. The budget is up to $10-12K, but then again, no reason to break the bank either ;)

It must have working (cold) AC, heat, good paint, good interior, working accesories etc as it will still be a DE/AX car, as well as a more frequent use vehicle than my last P-car.

In my research I have learned of issue re:
1) A-Arms/control arm failures
2) #2 rod bearing failures
3) Leaking hatches
4) Power Steering leaks
5) Coolant line/tank leaks/failures
6) Pre and Post '85 1/2 dash board changes
7) Early/Late offset wheels (thank you, ABS)
8 ) Rust around battery box areas
9) bad sunroof motors/latches/plastic gears
10) 968 Pinion failues :(
11) mmm rubber centered clutches and the high cost to replace!
12) Water Pump/ Timing belt replacements
13) ??? What else ???

- Where else does rust develop on these cars?
- What other areas did I forget to list?

- Can one reconcile between a persons "asking price" and the posted values of NADA or KBB? It would seem in some examples, its a 100% difference between the two!

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions, leads are all appreciated. thanks!

[BobNovas]

Between the two of us, my wife and I had two 86 944 turbos. They are great cars, but not cheap to maintain. We replaced both water pumps and clutches. The turbo crossover pipes were replaced under warranty as was the fuel rail. I can't think of anything else major, but I understand the #2 bearing is a weak point, as is the head gasket if you overboost them. We stayed on top of the timing belts so never had that failure.

I'd buy another one in a heart beat though, nothing beats the kick of a turbo coming on. Especially an 88 Turbo S or an 89.

[87turbolook911]

No affiliation...but looks pretty clean:

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/car/215967444.html

Good luck!

[Mike W]

- Can one reconcile between a persons "asking price" and the posted values of NADA or KBB? It would seem in some examples, its a 100% difference between the two!

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions, leads are all appreciated. thanks!

Not specifically reconcile, but as with all older Porsche's, to get a top notch one, I have found that the blue book values mean little. You can always find a deal on a good one, but most cars seem to be higher than book.

As with anything, don't pay more than you are comfortable with.

I love my 944. Great car.

[Mike W]

No affiliation...but looks pretty clean:

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/car/215967444.html

Good luck!

I really don't like white cars, but that does look like it is in good shape. Good price too. 16v car's are not cheep to maintain however.

[HoodPin]

Dave,

I really like the 944 S2's. The engine makes very usable power, without going over the top. As much fun as a 951 can be on street and track, IMHO, its a tough beast to tame in an autocross.

The issues you point out indeed exist. One that's missing is torque tube bearings. Not a common failure though. But much of your list is manageable with a bit of hands on wrenching. And some may require budget from some periodic preventative maintenance, like the timing belt and rod bearings.

The pricing can be all over the place due to recent maintenance expenses. Recent, well documented, timing belt, water pump, rod bearings, etc., will help push up the value. Those repairs aren't cheap, but the do last awhile.

S2' benefit from ABS, airbags, and the restyled nose & tail. Also, FWIW, you may see some value jumps with the '91 S2 coupes. The only made half as many coupes as convertibles. Plus the wing on the '91 matches the 968's, which sets the car apart.

I find the 944's in general to be a blast to drive, carry ton's of stuff, and parts are still available for the most part.

[Gator_86_951]

The 944 series is great. But, all the cars you listed are going to be pretty slow save for the 944S2 and the 968. That is my opinion. If you are looking for a good N/A track beast I would get the S2 or the 968.

[racer]

Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming!

Yes I know for the most part the cars would be slower than my previous ride. I think I am ok with that. heck, running in Black or Red, when you see mostly 993's, 996's and Cup Cars the 911 wasn't all that fast either (at least in straightaway speed ;) ). Some of the most recent fun I had in a "slow" car was a buddies 914 w/ a 2.4l 4cyl at Watkins Glen. Still ran low 2:20s and suprised many a "faster" car to boot.

I know of (and somewhat fear) the addictive boost bong of the Turbo's so I already removed them from temptation.

[cmartin]

I was close to buying a 968 this spring, I've always liked the last of the water pumpers. Lot's of HP, great interior, 993-ish front styling...

If you go that route read up on the variocam tensioner and chain. Not to say they are problematic, but they should never be confused with Honda's reliable v-tec, make sense? :)

[VaSteve]

If I was to do it again, I would consider an S or S2. You might find having been an instructor in a 911, that a regular n/a is too slow for you. You have a pretty good list of the usual trouble spots. You will probably find one that has most stuff done and needs one of the items on your list. None of them has everything perfect.

Maintenance can be easy or a pain. I wish I had paid more for my car and spent more time washing than fixing. I just finished changing my crankshaft seal, which took me a lot longer than I'd hoped. Ran into a few complications. I'm getting to be a reluctant expert in this model. :lol:

[Andy Clements]

Good luck with your FEWC purchase....they are great cars if you go in with the right mind set. The fact is that ALL of these cars are getting pretty old now so even the best maintained and low mileage cars are going to need some maintenance and updates, some of which can be pricey. IMO, a well maintained 944NA is a great all around car, although slow (just ask TD :) . A good 924S is usually a great bargain if you like the body shape. The 944S is fairly rare and somewhat more difficult/expensive to get engine parts for. The S2's have a lot more oomphhh, but are equally more complicated and expensive to maintain and locate parts for. The 968's are the best of the breed, but you will probably have a hard time finding a nice one in that price range.

Rust is rarely a problem and usually a sign of poor maintenance or accident repairs on these cars. It's not too hard to find one with good body/paint/interior/heat, and some still have good working A/C or parts exist to convert. Some of the mechanical problems you mentioned (a-arms, #2) are most often only problematic on track cars and less of an issue on a street/auto-x machine. Many of the issues are simply a result of age/mileage and nearly everything has been well documented for DIY repairs if you are so inclined. The clutch, water pump and timing belts are just accepted maintenance items that all '44 owners respect and deal with.....either by DIY or by budgeting for repairs.

If you have not already, spend some time reading Clarks Garage to get more familiar with what's involved in maintaining these cars, as well as typical costs involved. There is a good amount of 944 knowledge among local guys even though they get no respect on this board. You have to learn to ignore all of the "real Porsche" comments and just smile as they do pirouettes trying to keep the back end in the back. :)

Good Luck!

[VaSteve]

Rust is rarely a problem and usually a sign of poor maintenance or accident repairs on these cars. I

I have never seen one with rust (and some folks have some really shabby ones).





If you have not already, spend some time reading Clarks Garage to get more familiar with what's involved in maintaining these cars, as well as typical costs involved.

Don't let Clark's lack of photos intmidate you. Once you have messed with a it a little, it's not too bad to fix. The green stuff is the odd fluid.


There is a good amount of 944 knowledge among local guys even though they get no respect on this board. You have to learn to ignore all of the "real Porsche" comments and just smile as they do pirouettes trying to keep the back end in the back. :)

Good Luck!

Yup...no respect.

http://www.filmrot.com/images/Rodney-2.jpg

[edevinney]

I've not seen any rusty '44s, either, but this just showed up on rennlist: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=303351

[cmartin]

Dont forget battery tray rust, unfortunately a common trait.

[Cliff Claven]

If I were getting a FEWC I'd get something like this (though probably something with less history cause this one is a tad pricey):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-Car-1989-Chevrolet-Lumina-NASCAR-Dale-Earnhardt_W0QQitemZ200032825587QQihZ010QQcategoryZ 98061QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#lg

[racer]

If I were getting a FEWC I'd get something like this (though probably something with less history cause this one is a tad pricey):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-Car-1989-Chevrolet-Lumina-NASCAR-Dale-Earnhardt_W0QQitemZ200032825587QQihZ010QQcategoryZ 98061QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#lg

Ahh.. I am so tired of keeping a black car clean. No thanks ;)

[}{arlequin]

i don't know how you do it... it's like having a supermodel and then 'moving on' to a high school prom queen... ;)

[newgringo]

Racer,
I picked up a 1985.2 NA on ebay. CA car, clean as a whistle! Drove it home from Los Angeles to Virgnia, burned up 1/4 quart of oil, got 30 MPG at 85+ mph west of the Mississippi. Car has 198,000 onthe odometer. I have the control arms off now, installing race ball joints, new bushings and 968 caster blocks, and dependikn on my piggy bank, a 30mm sway bar. Once I get this back together your welcome to take a look. I work in Chantilly off Conference Center Drive. So if it's a sunny day. let me know.
I paid $3,500, which included new A/C compressor, performance chip, K&N, cat back flow thru, performance throttle cam, new tires (but they are crap, need to replace). I paid for the labor install the A/C, had the cooling system flushed, oil and filter. SO my investment up front was $3,950.00 All electronics work, except rear sunroof release arms...they worked and now they don't, but the SR tilts. Engine room is showroom clean. I recommend you consider a CA car, because this one has 0 rust, the battery box is like new. I think 1985.2 and on all used galvanized steel. I plan to autocross and DE this one next spring. I have the winter to tinker.

[newgringo]

take a look at this one

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1985-1-2-Porsche-944_W0QQitemZ130033662081QQihZ003QQcategoryZ6434QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[good hands]

interesting all the pictures say 2003 on them

[good hands]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/944-porsche-chevy-engine_W0QQitemZ140037486119QQihZ004QQcategoryZ643 4QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

this looks interesting

[Terry #44]

Dave,

You have nailed most of the issues these cars have, but to the 16 valve cars add chain tensioner pads. They are not hard to replace, but a failure is catastropic.

Despite my occasional griping about its reliability, I LOVE my S2/968.

[edevinney]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/944-porsche-chevy-engine_W0QQitemZ140037486119QQihZ004QQcategoryZ643 4QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

this looks interesting

Yep, but you wouldn't be able to DE it.

[edevinney]

i don't know how you do it... it's like having a supermodel and then 'moving on' to a high school prom queen... ;)

}{ - you're looking at it as a zero sum game, divorcing the supermodel to shack up with the prom queen. It's more like an open marraige.

The supermodel stays and the spanking-loving prom queen moves in for the occasional weekend of debauchery.

[racer]

I went shopping this weekend. Saturday I was to look at a 944S, but the rain was so bag I bagged it.


Sunday - Checked out a 1988 924S. "special edition" model. Black on burg/gray int. M030. Autothority chip. After Cat performance exhaust. 2 sets of wheels (6/7x15 phone dials) and 7/8x16 flat disc rims. 80K miles. 2nd owner. All records/manuals/brochures.

Hiccups:
1) cracked dash (suprise)
2) Wipers - only work on high speed
3) Oil Pressure guage "stuck" at 5 - didn't seem to move. Not sure if the guage goes to zero when car is off or not. I would think it should though.
4) Steering wheel needs re-covering
5) Usual stone chips on front end
6) Original clutch.. not sure if this is a good or bad thing ;)

Good, I think:
Paint
Interior/carpets were in good to VG condition
"Dry" battery box tray
Compression: #1 -180 #2-175 #3-175 #4-172
Leakdown: TDC/BDC = 95/92 100/98 100/98 100/98
Last major service was at 60K miles (about 20K miles ago)

As expected, felt a little less powerful than my 911, but not bad overall. Steering was tight and well balanced. Zero wandering when hands off wheel. No engine vibration (ie bad motor mounts)

Corner balanced. Weighs 2650 in AX trim (same as my 911)

Thoughts?

[Terry #44]

Go for more HP--a 16 valve car or turbo.

[racer]

Go for more HP--a 16 valve car or turbo.

No turbos, thank you... maybe a 16v though.

[KevinOyler]

In their last 2 years the 924 had a 944 engine and weigh slightly less than a 944 of the same year, but not much room in fenders to upgrade wheel and tire size. At that mileage, it is likely nearing the new clutch soon age.

If you plan to keep your next car a few years, I would advise an S2 or 968 for the hp and reliability of a later model aspect.

[N Fotouhi]

With the 911 sold, I am thinking that my next Porsche might be a FEWC (Front Engine Water Cooler). This would be my first FEWC after years (decades?!) of aircooled Porsche exposure/experience.

I am not looking for a $500 beater to spend all my time on fixing. While I would prefer a car with less than 100,000 miles, I realize that may not happen given the age of the models, and therefore records are a must. The budget is up to $10-12K, but then again, no reason to break the bank either ;)

It must have working (cold) AC, heat, good paint, good interior, working accesories etc as it will still be a DE/AX car, as well as a more frequent use vehicle than my last P-car.

In my research I have learned of issue re:
1) A-Arms/control arm failures
2) #2 rod bearing failures
3) Leaking hatches
4) Power Steering leaks
5) Coolant line/tank leaks/failures
6) Pre and Post '85 1/2 dash board changes
7) Early/Late offset wheels (thank you, ABS)
8 ) Rust around battery box areas
9) bad sunroof motors/latches/plastic gears
10) 968 Pinion failues :(
11) mmm rubber centered clutches and the high cost to replace!
12) Water Pump/ Timing belt replacements
13) ??? What else ???

- Where else does rust develop on these cars?
- What other areas did I forget to list?

- Can one reconcile between a persons "asking price" and the posted values of NADA or KBB? It would seem in some examples, its a 100% difference between the two!

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions, leads are all appreciated. thanks!

The list you have is for different 44 series car problems. The later cars has aluminum a-arm and potential failures are under sever racing.

#2 RB is typically in early cars. The 3.0 L (S2) has a differnt design of oil baffle and this is almost a non-issue.

I have a 91 S2 and the hatch and sunroof do not leak. This is a 100% track car that seats around most of the time and then gets tossed around pretty good on the track. If you find one that leaks, new seals will solve ay leaking issue.

All the other issues are maintanence. The batery rusting is a non-issue in 44s as far I have heard. I doubt that you will find any 44 series cars out there that have rubber centers.

A decent S2 can be had for less than 10K. You may be able to buy a 92 968 for around 14K. If you only do DE/Ax, you can always put a 968 enging in a 944 and lighten it. It will keep up with half the cars in any DE red group. Just watch Terry Thomas sometime.

Nader

[N Fotouhi]

Yep, but you wouldn't be able to DE it.

Yes you can. There is no requirement to hav P-car enging in a P-car for DE. I have seen several of these hybrids pass 993/996.

[VaSteve]

A decent S2 can be had for less than 10K. You may be able to buy a 92 968 for around 14K. If you only do DE/Ax, you can always put a 968 enging in a 944 and lighten it. It will keep up with half the cars in any DE red group. Just watch Terry Thomas sometime.

Nader


Terry's car has a 968 engine? I thought it was just a stock S2.

[TD in DC]

Battery tray rusting is an issue, at least for early cars. Water from the windshield drains to the battery tray. If the drainage tube for the battery tray gets clogged, water sits in the tray , and it eventually rusts out. Then, your battery can move when wiggled around, and you will catch flack at tech inspections ;)

Worse yet, once the tray is rusted out, water then drains into the passenger side interior of the car rather than to the outside. If you have an 83-85.5 car, this just means that you will ruin whatever interior you have and/or your car generally will smell like monkey butt. If you have an 85.5 or later car, in addition to ruining your interior and making the car smell like monkey butt, the water will dump right on top of your DME and fry the computer. fun. So, check used cars for the battery tray rust problem (not really too big of a deal to fix, but you need to look), or, if you have a 944, check the drainage of the battery tray.

Honestly, there are too many issues to look for to list here. This topic sounds like a good reason to get together for a drink to discuss/mourn because i am sure that nobody is in the mood for a td-esque post on this issue, including me.

[VaSteve]

Honestly, there are too many issues to look for to list here. This topic sounds like a good reason to get together for a drink to discuss/mourn because i am sure that nobody is in the mood for a td-esque post on this issue, including me.


What are you mourning this time, TD? Last I saw it, the car was running!

[TD in DC]

What are you mourning this time, TD? Last I saw it, the car was running!

It ran great this weekend, with zero issues whatsoever, except for the coolsuit not working for the enduro. Apart from swapping out dries and wets and disconnecting connecting swaybars, I didn't need to touch the car at all.

[VaSteve]

It ran great this weekend, with zero issues whatsoever, except for the coolsuit not working for the enduro. Apart from swapping out dries and wets and disconnecting connecting swaybars, I didn't need to touch the car at all.

That's the way you want it! :) Good stuff. Sorry I couldn't stay to see the actual wheel to wheel. :(

[edevinney]

Yes you can. There is no requirement to hav P-car enging in a P-car for DE. I have seen several of these hybrids pass 993/996.

I coulda sworn there's a thread here or on rennlist where Kurt noted that it wouldn't be permitted, but darned if I can find it.

[racer]

I coulda sworn there's a thread here or on rennlist where Kurt noted that it wouldn't be permitted, but darned if I can find it.

I believe MOST PCA regions require the cars to be Porsches and all Porsches are to have a Porsche block.

Not interested in a V-8 unless it's a 928 or a Cayenne!


I know people keep saying, I should look at an S2. I have driven one once many years ago. Twice in an AX environment and for one run group at New Hampshire Speedway. I know they have more power and torque than the N/A 8V. I also know they run the "turbo" brakes.

But are they that much more fun on the track?

When I DE'd the 911 sure it was fun, but I had no one to run with. Red and Black run groups are filled with modded 964s, 993's and seemingly everyone with a Cup Car (or any vintage). 220hp isn't much in the world of 300-400hp cars. I would either pull away from most of the FEWCs (S2's some Turbos) or my arm would get tired letting the Cup Cars go by. not much middle ground. Given the popularity of the 924/44 as a race car, I would think there would be some good cars to run with in the DE environment. And certainly if I try Club racing, the competition is as fierce there as any class.

As for AX, I imagine an NA 8V can run with or beat 16V/turbo/968s. In fact the one I looked at was quite well driven at the PCA and SCCA level to warrant some class championships vs more powerful cars.

[Trak Ratt]

931s are the only way to go;) Engine only produced for a few years. Only in the 931 in this country. NLA parts seem to be the norm for engine and transmissions. Only very limited availability of suitable wheels. Poor ventilation, even poorer AC. I would highly recommend a 931 to anyone looking for aggravation, frustration, consternation… latest $3 O-ring order from Germany still a week out… god I hate these things!

[HoodPin]

It ran great this weekend, with zero issues whatsoever, except for the coolsuit not working for the enduro.

Not the cool suit again...... Did it at least stop leaking out of the cooler?

[TD in DC]

Not the cool suit again...... Did it at least stop leaking out of the cooler?

:lol: Ironically, it did not leak a drop. Not a single drop. It just didn't turn on. I tested it before I jumped into the car, and then on the way to the grid, I realized it wasn't working. :lol:

[racer]

Well.. Last weekend I looked at a 1987 944S - 16V. Nautic Blue over burgundy. Original owner car. LSD. Excellent cosmetic condition! Nary a scatch or paint chip; still had the sunroof bag; original spare, toolkit and aircompressor. Not a single dash crack to be found. 75K miles. All paperwork and receipts. Original clutch. Timing belt replaced a few K miles ago.

Upon driving: As expected, not much below 4K rpm. More over 4K, but not as much as expected over the 8V motors. Drove ok. no wandering with the steering. However:

1) When getting "on" and "off" the gas abrubtly, it felt "loose" - like a transmission or motor mount was gone. Definitely a vibration.
2) A/C doesn't hold a charge and the "leak" hadn't been found
3) Shocks (original!) need to be replaced - you would think once in 20 years one might do that.
4) Clutch didn't feel quite right, but someone told me "either they are good or they are broken, no middle ground". I certainly felt like "it was going" based on hundreds of thousands of miles driving manual transmission cars.
5) Price: Owner listed originally (this summer) at $11k (insert Shock face here!), then dropped to $10,5 and is now at $9,9. After checking most of the usual places for values, these cars tend to also be mired in the $4-6K range.

When talking to the owner, I clearly new more than him about his own car. I tried the "reason" approach: I showed him all the NADA/KBB info, as well as just potential "parts" prices to fix the AC, shocks, and at least mounts (trans etc) if not more (clutch) to get it mechanically perfect (Again, cosmetically the car is as close to perfect that you could see) and bravely offered $6500. I've been asked not to make another offer "unless I am serious" ;) and that he has declined even higher offers. He said the clutch feels as good now as when new (really?) That yes, the A/C is an issue and that his mechanic told him "his out of round tires" are causing the vibrations I noticed under power (hmmm not sure I believe this one).

So, if anyone is looking for an overpriced 944S, that needs some mechanical attention (listed on autotrader) I say "go for it!" I just can't justify paying, say 8k (if that would even be enough) and needing to drop another 2K into it.


The other annoyance to me is Mr Millers recent 914 thread. Just when I thought I was over them... so.. FEWC vs 914 has now erupted!

[VaSteve]

I can't figure out why anyone in their right mind would add that "porsche" centerpiece between the taillights. IIRC that was a dealer only item that was added to move slow stock. My 944, odd color and all, was an off the showroom floor car and doesn't have it. If you didn't know, all Porsches are "made to order". To build stock, the dealer orders what he thinks he can sell to walk in customer. Hence, the usual mix of colors...Red, Black, Silver.

[kaefer]

I saw a nice '86 944 S2 for sale a few months back here in Montpelier for $6k. It looked like a nice car for the money. If I see it up for sale again I'll let you know.

[cmartin]

I think I saw that '44 listed, move on, nothing to see. There are too many of those cars available to settle, or pay too much.

[kaefer]

I think I saw that '44 listed, move on, nothing to see. There are too many of those cars available to settle, or pay too much.


Was it white with a navy interior, long block replaced?

If so, what do you know?

[Mike W]

I saw a nice '86 944 S2 for sale a few months back here in Montpelier for $6k. It looked like a nice car for the money. If I see it up for sale again I'll let you know.

S2 only made between 89 and 91.

[VaSteve]

That reminds me of the 84 turbo is saw on the street the other day. So easy to add badge, so expensive to back it up.

[Mike W]

That reminds me of the 84 turbo is saw on the street the other day. So easy to add badge, so expensive to back it up.

There was a Top Gear challenge where they had to buy Italian sports cars for under GBP 10K.

Jeremy Clarkson purchased a Maseratti Marak (sp) S. Turns out he purchased a regular one with a S put on for show.

[racer]

VA Steve, I don't like the dealer ad on reflector either. The owner liked it and had it installed. One of the first things i thought was, how many holes to fill when i remove it ;)... However, he did "order" the blue paint / burg interior so it is a little unique.

Sadly, most of these cars are Guards Red, Black or white. I've come across very few "other" colors.