Interesting point...

[Eli]

Just read Todd's post on Rennlist and something struck a chord with me. At some point while watching my track videos Dave mentioned that I should try "smoother" inputs while driving. I was very thankful for the suggestion and over the next few days tried my best only to find out that the car does not respond as well as I would have hoped, or Dave would have wished...
Since I rarely see or talk to other 996 drivers (with the exception of NNJR, their region is pretty blinged out...) Todd's post on the rennlist board made things a bit more clear...
Link and quote below...

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=236188&page=4

on the 996, I have the impression that the car is "glued" to the track and I have to use much more "aggressive" inputs if I am trying to get one of the ends to move. The 944 feels much more "willing" to move in response to weight shifts I induce through inputs. If I even think about using the type of input I need for the 996 on the 944, I will do a nice little piroutte . . .

Perhaps someone else who's driven a 996 can chime in...

[TD in DC]

Good Topic Eli.

Let me clarify my point a little. What I mean by aggressive inputs is really mostly throttle inputs (e.g., lifting to deal with understeer) and, to a lesser extent, braking (e.g., if I am trying to induce TTO). I try to be just as smooth with respect to steering, shifting and clutch work.

[mroberts]

Remember, the 944 has none of the gizmos the 996 has. What you're trying to make the 996 do on the track is probably categorized by the computer as "holy crap !"

Call it denial (I do), but that's why I'd much rather have my 944 than some brand new, shiny, powerful 996 or 997, with working air conditioning, no rust, a nice stereo, heated seats ....

[}{arlequin]

maybe not always, although I seem to think so at this time, but to drive a car at.the.very.limit seems like you inevitably will cross that limit too. sometimes on purpose, sometimes not, but you will intend to destabilize the car, if for no other reason then to "help it" turn in. a 996 w/ 20+ years of susp. development is going to be a lot more difficul to destabilize. the modern susp. is supposed to help you keep the car gathered up, not have it out of shape. you're fightin' vs. german injineers man!!

[Z-man]

Remember, the 944 has none of the gizmos the 996 has. What you're trying to make the 996 do on the track is probably categorized by the computer as "holy crap !"

Call it denial (I do), but that's why I'd much rather have my 944 than some brand new, shiny, powerful 996 or 997, with working air conditioning, no rust, a nice stereo, heated seats ....
I can learn to live with those modern annoyances like AC, nice stereo, heated seats, PSM... :shock:

[Vicegrip]

I think smooth is a matter of timing and input rate rather than amount of the input. You can turn the wheel 90 deg in 1/16th of a second or in 1/2 a second. Same amount of input but one will feel smoother and will also give the car time to react as well. Some cars need to be horsed around and some will dance lightly along with you. Squeeze the brake until threshold or stab it down. Stomp the gas or feed it in as you open up the wheel.

I always feel for the timing of the car. I think each car has its own cadence and you need to work the controls at the pace required by the car. Think of a hula dancer all her movements are a the same pace. It can be a fast set pace but if you add control inputs at a rate that the car cannot respond to you will only upset the car.

[TD in DC]

Kurt, I hear you and I certainly don't have as much experience as you, but I think it is a little of both timing and amount. I need to let you drive the 996 so that you will see what I'm talking about. (my God, what am I saying :mrgreen: ). I think Kurt just tricked me.

[Don Wohlfarth]

I'm confused, even more than usual.
Quote:
on the 996, I have the impression that the car is "glued" to the track and I have to use much more "aggressive" inputs if I am trying to get one of the ends to move. The 944 feels much more "willing" to move in response to weight shifts I induce through inputs. If I even think about using the type of input I need for the 996 on the 944, I will do a nice little piroutte . . .
2nd Quote:
Let me clarify my point a little. What I mean by aggressive inputs is really mostly throttle inputs (e.g., lifting to deal with understeer) and, to a lesser extent, braking (e.g., if I am trying to induce TTO). I try to be just as smooth with respect to steering, shifting and clutch work.

At first I thought these inputs were using the steering wheel which is usually defined as "tossing" the car into a turn as the inputs are done much to quickly. Then I find out it's throttle inputs.
Thank god for Kurt bringing a little clarification into the thread.

[TD in DC]

I don't get your point at all Don. Really. I am talking about the smoothness and degree of lift you need to use to address understeer, and the "abruptness" of braking inputs you need to do to break the rear end loose in a tight turn, as well as the degree of what you need to do in general to transfer weight as needed.

The 944 feels extremely well balanced and very responsive to inputs. You don't need too much of a lift to address understeer in the rare occassions that you experience it, and you don't need to be abrupt at all to get the rear end to swing around nicely while you are trailbraking. The car responds very promptly to subtle driver inputs, and it rewards smoothness and subtleness in all inputs.

The 996 literally feels glued to the track, which, under nearly every circumstance is exactly what you want. However, when I do experience understeer, the degree of lift I need to use to transfer weight to the front and get the car to respond is far greater than in the 944. The same is true with respect to braking and the rear of the car. What is so surprising or stupid about this observation? I believe I am merely describing the design characteristics of the cars. It might also have to do with the fact that the suspension on my car has been lowered and stiffened, but I think it has more to do with the basic design characteristics of both cars. Specifically, I think that the designers of the 996 specifically made it so that drivers must use greater inputs to get the car to respond, because, for most people, this makes the car safer: the stupid inputs of morons are muted so they don't hurt themselves.

With respect to steering, my 944 has manual steering that responds far more quickly to steering inputs than does the 996. I have grown to love the manual steering on the 944, which gives you much more direct feedback as to traction levels at the front of the car, and hate the power steering on the 996, which gives you feedback that is much more subtle. The degree of input that you need to use on the different cars is dramatically different, but it doesn't really change my driving style. You still turn-in using the same technique, although you will be turning the wheel much more with the 966 than with the 944.

[Don Wohlfarth]

Sorry TD, didn't mean to give you a wedgie so early in the morning. :)
I started my reply that I was confused on who was doing what to whom as I didn't understand what your "inputs" were and what you were trying to accomplish.
If you had started your first post on this thread "I am talking about the smoothness and degree of lift you need to use to address understeer, and the "abruptness" of braking inputs you need to do to break the rear end loose in a tight turn, as well as the degree of what you need to do in general to transfer weight as needed" perhaps I would not have been confused.

[wludavid]

At the last Schatt event, someone brough up a great point - it's not the driver that must be smooth, but the car. As a driver progresses in skill, the car will be going a lot faster, and so the quick responses necessary to keep the car doing what you want will start to seem less and less smooth to the uninitiated. Ever watch cockpit footage in a rally car? There's no way that can be described as 'smooth.'

[TD in DC]

Yeah Don, I guess it's not too hard to get me wound up as I sit home on a beautiful day while all my friends are at the track because my car is broken. I am sure you understand . . .

[BlackTalon]

Yeah Don, I guess it's not too hard to get me wound up as I sit home on a beautiful day while all my friends are at the track because my car is broken. I am sure you understand . . .

Hey, c'mon -- are you trying to say we are not your friends? :lol:

[TD in DC]

LOL. Ok, "some" of my friends ;)

[}{arlequin]

Yeah Don, I guess it's not too hard to get me wound up as I sit home on a beautiful day while all my friends are at the track because my car is broken. I am sure you understand . . .
it was 70's and sunny...... noah, eli and chris got promoted....... two boxsters suffered......... 360 challenge car ran laps on main (by himself) while we watched and had lunch............ we drank and barbecued under the soft light of 260 watts' worth of H4's........ you really didn't miss much

[Charlie Stylianos]

noah, eli and chris got promoted

Congrats, guys!!

[Cliff Claven]

Three observations:

A rapid input can still be smooth.

The 996 (at least the one I've driven) is extremely forgiving and settles very rapidly, at least compared to the two SC's or the 964 that I've driven.

You can get a 996 to rotate very, very nicely using trailbraking or by lifting in a turn.

[TD in DC]

Three observations:

A rapid input can still be smooth.

The 996 (at least the one I've driven) is extremely forgiving and settles very rapidly, at least compared to the two SC's or the 964 that I've driven.

You can get a 996 to rotate very, very nicely using trailbraking or by lifting in a turn.

True, and I am not insulting the 996 or claiming that you cannot trailbrake. In many ways the 996 is "easier" to drive quickly than other cars. I do think that, since it settles so rapidly, or to phrase it another way, takes more to unsettle it, your inputs at some points must be greater or more abrupt than in other cars. If you tried to drive an SC or 964 exactly the way you drive the 996, you will probably have a few nice little spins.

Congrats on the promotions. Doesn't surpise me a bit!

[Vicegrip]

Todd while I have not "drove" you particular 996 I have drive a few including a rather frisky TT. It might have been a 993 TT but ether way you get my point, (Or should I say, drift? ;) )

With respect to the steering input and chassis reaction times you might be confusing a system input reaction or lag time with chassis reaction time. Let’s use the manual and power steering as an example. There is no lag difference in manual and power steering in a Porsche. If you turn the wheel in a Porsche that has power steering the wheels respond just a soon as with Manuel setup. This is because it is a fully linked system just the same as with the manual system just power assisted. With this being the case you might be misreading the chassis timing as steering input lag. The power assist might be masking the system feedback or “feel”

Generally speaking the heaver the car and or the softer the suspension the slower or lets say the more lag there is in the cars execution of driver inputs. With this we are back to the hula dance. You have to keep up with your dance partner and also not get ahead of her. If the car is real hard to get the back out it is telling you something! Work with the tools at hand. If the car is sticking like glue give it more energy to deal with. That is, go faster, carry more energy through the corner. Instead of dropping to the mat and wrestling with her go with the flow. When you are near the limits of the traction circle the size of any inputs will be smaller to achieve the same result regardless of the car. All cars need a lighter hand when they are at the “edge”
As far as sliding the car. Personaly I try to keep the wheels planted as much as possible. I don't have the final answer to anything but I think TTO or hooking a corner is not the fastest way around if other methods work. It costs you tire life as well. Try opening up the turn a little bit and carrying speed through. Don’t quote me but try entering a tiny bit earlier and carry through, as you load up the suspension and get the tires close to limits you can make little adjustments to get the drift you want or need.

[VaSteve]

it was 70's and sunny...... noah, eli and chris got promoted....... two boxsters suffered......... 360 challenge car ran laps on main (by himself) while we watched and had lunch............ we drank and barbecued under the soft light of 260 watts' worth of H4's........ you really didn't miss much

Congrats, guys!

[TD in DC]

Todd while I have not "drove" you particular 996 I have drive a few including a rather frisky TT. It might have been a 993 TT but ether way you get my point, (Or should I say, drift? ;) )

With respect to the steering input and chassis reaction times you might be confusing a system input reaction or lag time with chassis reaction time. Let’s use the manual and power steering as an example. There is no lag difference in manual and power steering in a Porsche. If you turn the wheel in a Porsche that has power steering the wheels respond just a soon as with Manuel setup. This is because it is a fully linked system just the same as with the manual system just power assisted. With this being the case you might be misreading the chassis timing as steering input lag. The power assist might be masking the system feedback or “feel”

Generally speaking the heaver the car and or the softer the suspension the slower or lets say the more lag there is in the cars execution of driver inputs. With this we are back to the hula dance. You have to keep up with your dance partner and also not get ahead of her. If the car is real hard to get the back out it is telling you something! Work with the tools at hand. If the car is sticking like glue give it more energy to deal with. That is, go faster, carry more energy through the corner. Instead of dropping to the mat and wrestling with her go with the flow. When you are near the limits of the traction circle the size of any inputs will be smaller to achieve the same result regardless of the car. All cars need a lighter hand when they are at the “edge”
As far as sliding the car. Personaly I try to keep the wheels planted as much as possible. I don't have the final answer to anything but I think TTO or hooking a corner is not the fastest way around if other methods work. It costs you tire life as well. Try opening up the turn a little bit and carrying speed through. Don’t quote me but try entering a tiny bit earlier and carry through, as you load up the suspension and get the tires close to limits you can make little adjustments to get the drift you want or need.

Kurt, I hear what you are saying and I imagine that you are absolutely right.

With respect to steering, however, remember that I said they are exactly the same between the 996 and 944. Although the steering ratios are different so you have to turn the wheel a lot more in the 996, I do not believe you drive the cars any differently with respect to steering.

Nonetheless, your point brings out exactly why the 996, which is an outstanding car both on the track and on the street, can make it a little more difficult to learn how to drive well. You need to be going so fast to reach the limits of that car, that it can be a little dangerous once you step over that limit. I suspect that I, like most, spend much of my time in the 996 at about 70-80% of its capabilities: the driver runs out of ability so much more quickly than the car.

When you drive a car whose capabilities may be less, you stand a better chance of reaching the limits of the car before you reach your own limits, or at least you can get there at roughly the same time at much lower speeds.

I am also open to the real possibility that the suspension set up on my car, which is not stock, leads to the handling characteristics I describe, and so people who drive other 996s may not experience the same things I experience.

[TD in DC]

At the last Schatt event, someone brough up a great point - it's not the driver that must be smooth, but the car. As a driver progresses in skill, the car will be going a lot faster, and so the quick responses necessary to keep the car doing what you want will start to seem less and less smooth to the uninitiated. Ever watch cockpit footage in a rally car? There's no way that can be described as 'smooth.'

Here is a nice example of this: http://www.gscdownloads.com/leh/LehMXcityKAK.wmv (http://www.gscdownloads.com/leh/LehMXcityKAK.wmv)