Downshifting [Archive] - Dorkiphus.net

Jazzbass

10-04-2005, 10:14 PM

Sitting here watching baseball, which means I need something else to do so I don't fall asleep. So I'm reading Vic Elford's driving book (as if it'll help :roll: ). In the braking/downshifting section, he talks about braking from 150mph to 40mph, and downing shifting through the gears 5th-4th-3rd-2nd on the way down.

In a similar situation (into T1 at Summit), I go from 5th-2nd but in one shift at the end of the braking zone right before turn in. I don't go through the gears, nor do I understand why you would. It seems like its just one more thing to upset the balance of the car, which would be bad. But, Vic does it, and last I checked he was just a bit faster around a racetrack than I. I've also seen track video of race drivers in GT3 cup cars doing the same around VIR. So what gives? Is there any advantage to it?

BlackTalon

10-04-2005, 11:23 PM

The tranny in my Carrera doesn't like the 5-2 downshift, so I either leave it in 4th on the straight, or do two downshifts (5-4 and 4-2). I played around a little with 4-3-2 at the last DE, but it would be tough to throw a thrid downshift in there... I thought this type of downshifting was needed in cars with racing trannies since many do not have syncros? In our street cars, there is no real benefit to using more than one downshift, other then the fact that you are less likely to overrev on the way down.

(disclaimer -- I don't really know what I'm talking about, so you may not want to believe anything I just wrote!)

Charlie Stylianos

10-04-2005, 11:29 PM

It seems like its just one more thing to upset the balance of the car, which would be bad.

That was pretty much my understanding of why not to do it, other than the misfortune of an over-rev, and you also could possibly use the time shifting to concentrate on more important things;)

I'm curious also as to any benefits of the 'multi down shift'.

APKhaos

10-04-2005, 11:40 PM

THis is a bit like the left foot braking question. Some swear by it, some treat it as an unnatural act.

There are two schools of thought on multi-gear downshifts.
Some prefer to row down through the gears while braking, some prefer to get the braking done, shift straight to the gear for the corner, and go. From everything I've read on this in books on race technique and whenever this comes up on the forums [its a hardy annual on Rennlist], there is no clear-cut "best" technique.

Lots of drivers-gods like Vic Elford spent much of their careers driving race cars with straight-cut gears which demanded rowing through the box, which probably accounts for it. You will see lots of pro drivers in Porsche cup car series row down as well, but they are driving a very different gearbox to the ones in our street-cars-turned-track-cars.

I'm in the one shift school, mainly because it lets me focus exclusively on braking until I'm ready to get the right gear and go, with little or no risk of a money shift into a low gear at high speed. This means a downshift from 5th to 2nd on most tracks at the end of the straight. No problem!

Alan Herod

10-05-2005, 06:30 AM

Good thread. I am also in the Tony school and perhaps for a different reason. My tranny does not like the 5-4 shift and I don't gain much benefit from 2nd gear in turn 1 at Summit. Perhaps with tighter gears I would, but I can (and always could) start out in 2nd, which is perhaps too low. My shifts are woefully slow and I waste far more time getting down to 2nd there. Were I to need to use second, I would pick one of the two shifts that works well in my gear box - either 3rd to 2nd or 4th to 2nd. 5th to 3rd works great and 4th to 2nd works great. If I was driving my Honda with non-quirky, smooth, short shifting gear box; then, any gear choice is good, but I am still in the least amount of shifts the better. Since you are delaying your shift until you are at the speed where you need to be for the next gear, there really is no reason to use some intermediate gear, unless you are using gears and engine compression to assist in braking because you are driving some vintage car with marginal brakes.

jerome951

10-05-2005, 07:49 AM

Change a clutch in a 944 Turbo yourself and you'll see why I shift as little as possible.

I'm not a great heel-toer (like Vic) so more shifts mean more chances for mistakes with little or no added benefit...

KevinOyler

10-05-2005, 08:05 AM

With the advent of sequential shifters, you may all be stepping through every gear someday. I think earlier drivers went through each gear as a way to deal with straight-cut gears. If you wait and lose the right rpm needed for 5-2 shift, there would be a lot of grinding of gears and time lost getting back on the power.

Vicegrip

10-05-2005, 08:06 AM

Some use the 5432 shift to add some rear wheel drag and this is a way of adding some rear wheel brake bias of sorts. A little help to the brakes in the energy absorbtion department. As Tony said some gear boxes require 12345 54321 shifting and some do not. Street boxes mostly do not and full on race boxes mostly do. I have street box and am street grade driver and always drop to the gear I want directly. With a 901 and having 1st and R locked out it is a straight H and there is no chance of a 5/1 motor killer.

I guess the answer is... It depends on what you are driving and who you are.

I was watching a TEVO of an endurance race and they had a cam in the footwell of a GT2 911. The up shifts were all 23456 without clutch and the down shifts were all 65432 with the clutch via H/T.

The driver also tickeled the brake pedal a bit before each braking event to test and pump the system. Just a little tap 3/4th down the straight to see that they were still "there" Did this like a clock same way same place every time.

Chopper Dropper

10-05-2005, 08:08 AM

Mostly depends on your likes or dislikes and your particular traany and how your shifter flops around or is nice and crisp with a clean gate.I've done both, and generally do the sequential path unless I am confident I can catch the correct cog with the correct blip.
Dirk

VaSteve

10-05-2005, 09:11 AM

Good post Chris, I read that section and saw that video as well and wondered the same thing. Good thing I don't need to add one more thing to my already erratic driving style.

Manny Alban

10-05-2005, 09:35 AM

My mechanic and I had this exact discussion on Monday. He had taken apart a club racer's tranny and it had a broken shift fork. I told him that he would probably be taking my tranny apart over the winter as shifting into third gear was a little notchy, but only while I was going around the carousel and shifting from 2nd to 3rd. Everywhere else it was fine. He asked me how it was when I downshifted into third from fifth at Turn One. I told him that I don't shift 5-4-3, but rather brake, heel/toe, shift into 3rd and gas. I do shift 4-3-2 into Turn 5, but that's only for extra braking. One time I didn't and almost went off the track. Guess I should start braking earlier.

}{arlequin

10-05-2005, 11:05 AM

I don't do it now but when I started tracking my cars, as a beginner, I did the rowing-through-every-gear thing. On my cars that only meant 4-3-2 so doing two shifts wasn't that big a deal. My reasoning for it (I think) was the fact that I felt *safer* going down by one gear at a time to help me keep track of how much revs to blip. Even w/ an error, the chance for a screwup was less on a 4-3 shift than 4-2. (This was a time when I occasionally shifted from 3rd to 4th instead of 2nd and wondered how come the car is not going :roll: )

Reflecting back on this, I'm sure that made me slower under braking, but I feel that I had a benefit of learning, or getting used to, modulating the brake pedal pressure, if for no other reason than the fact that I couldn't always keep steady pressure while doing two blips.

Mackliet

10-05-2005, 11:13 AM

Ok, for those experienced in rowing through the gears, I have two questions:

Does it matter whether the brake zone is a threshold zone or not?
Are you double-cluthing while doing this?
Thanks.

}{arlequin

10-05-2005, 11:20 AM

a) i haven't noticed a difference, but i did try to reach threshold every time
b) hit the brakes, clutch in, blip/shift, clutch out briefly then in, blip/shift, go- it sure kept me busy ;)

TD in DC

10-05-2005, 11:24 AM

I have been following the debate about this for a long time, and a friend of mine, Larry Herman, told me that shifting through the gears can be very useful if you need more rear brake bias. I got a chance to use this technique last time we were at SP. The funny thing is that my car has a brake bias adjustment knob right there in the cockpit next to the shifter, but I am too chicken to use it. :(

Funny how much you learn by losing ABS. And here to think I thought I was great at braking. I honestly used to hear all the talk about threshold braking and I couldn't figure out what the fuss was all about. In the 996, I just waited until the appropriate braking point, applied the brakes smoothly but very firmly, and then released smoothly. What's the problem? Without ABS, it is a whole other story . . . What I still can't understand is why it makes such a difference since I never chattered the brakes on the 996 on the track, so I don't think I ever actually used the ABS. I just think the brakes on the 996 are just that good.

Typically, I just shift from 5 to 2 at T1 and from 4 to 2 at T5. However, since the track was slick and wet, and I was using MPSC, I felt that I had very little braking traction, and I kept sliding at T1 and T5. It was actually pretty disconcerting. Luckily, I did not flatspot my tires because I have watched my Skip Barber DVD about 100 times, and the DVD talks about what to do when you start sliding. :lol:

In any event, I found that I was far more likely to slide if I left the clutch pedal pushed in too long while down shifting. I did that a few times because I was so worried about lack of braking. I found that a nice and smooth, but quick, downshift (fortunately, I don't usually have a problem with heel-toeing) helped me slow down.

I started thinking about what Larry had told me, and I tried to shift 5-4-3-2 with the same smooth shifts, and I actually think it helped keep me from breaking loose in the braking zone more than shifting straight from 5-2. It could have just been my perception, and I occasionally forgot and shifted straight through due to force of habit. It really had me rattled that weekend, and I was almost certain I was going to go off track before all was said and done. I never did (well, at least not at T1 or T5 :roll: ).

Bruce,

To answer your question:

a) yes, for the reasons stated above;

b) no, clutch in, blip and shift, clutch out, repeat. I have never tried to double-clutch, and am not certain if I am coordinated enough to pull that off.

}{arlequin

10-05-2005, 11:35 AM

In any event, I found that I was far more likely to slide if I left the clutch pedal pushed in too long while down shifting.
I think it's a general good rule to not have the chassis "disconnected" from the power, especially under braking. I feel that it's DE-stabilizing.

damn Todd, you get into 5th??? Something's wrong, I never get use that gear on the track...

TD in DC

10-05-2005, 11:39 AM

I think it's a general good rule to not have the chassis "disconnected" from the power, especially under braking. I feel that it's DE-stabilizing.

damn Todd, you get into 5th??? Something's wrong, I never get use that gear on the track...

Believe it or not, I even get into 5th on Shenandoah :mrgreen: I don't like to stay at redline in 4th for very long :mrgreen: Good think I have the lower euro 5th gear.

Dave, you are right that having the chassis disconnected from the power is destabilizing. I had to learn the lesson the hard way. It was a whole new experience since I had never slid while braking before. I heard this faint "sshhhhh" sound and I perceived that I was suddenly accelerating a little, but no smoke or squeel from the tires. The first time it happened, I honestly was thinking to myself: "what the hell is going on?" Luckily, I figured it out again, only due to that stupid Skip Barber DVD that explains that you go 30% faster once you start sliding. Something clicked and I eased off the brake pedal very softly until the sound stopped and I started to slow down again. At that point I was at driver's right about 2/3 of the way around T5 Yeehaawwww.

Don Wohlfarth

10-05-2005, 11:53 AM

Guess I should start braking earlier.
I think it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish, how comfortable with heel and toe, and how well your car is set up. :roll:
First thing is to get your car under control for proper entry speed. Easiest way is to use the (expletive deleted) brake using threshold braking going into turn 1 at SP. Next step is to have the car in proper gear before turn in.
Use your brakes to control proper entry speed before rowing down thru the gear box looking for additional braking.
If your car is set up with more rear bias to the point of "almost" locking rear brakes under threshold braking you will not benefit from additional motor braking.

Jase007

10-05-2005, 12:35 PM

I use both methods ... depending on the phase of the moon, the tides, and my mood :smile: :lol:

I don't see the benefit of one versus the other [though, was taught double-clutch-heel-toe back in the '80s from Skip Barber] unless you have a car with straight cut gears [Skip B was using saab powered formula fords back them with straight cut gear].

IMO, the faster the car [sub 2:20 at SP] the less time you have in every braking zone which =

1. less time to "row" through the gears
2. less time to find the right gear
3. less time to complete h/t and GET IN GEAR WITH CLUTCH OUT before you transition back on throttle and turn the f$%^in wheel. :smile:

With a slower car, some things happen slower [at least at the braking zone]and you have more time to "get 'er done" before you turn that steering wheel. That said, I don't "row" through the gears [all 4 for 'em] when I get to T1 in my 356. In our other cars, it is speed dependent. Our '66, '73 and '74 all have SS kits and roboteks and moving through the gates ensures avoiding the $$$ shift. However, in a racing situtation, you are trying to find just the right gear and that may depend on if you are dive-bombing someone [or whatever other smart move you chose to do] and 2nd gear may no longer work. You might have fallen off cam by dropping to many revs, got all cattywumpass [technical term] by throwing it in there and now need 1st instead of 2nd or 3rd, etc, etc, etc... At that point, I am in neutral until the last moment when I know what gear I need depending on what happened in the "playing chicken in the braking zone" and "I'll get inside to the apex before you" games ...

[caveat - '66] Like Kurt said, the 901 box [dog-leg 1st down and left] with a SS kit and a 1st / R lockout plate gives an easy H pattern [2-5] and I don't "row" through those gears coming into T1 [substitute any 1st corner after the longest straight].

Of the three [741, 901 or 915] I think the 901 [with lockout] is the most intuitive. (subjet to change) ;-)

FWIW

Jase

Parenn911

10-05-2005, 12:41 PM

row row row your gears gently down the slope, merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a slippery slope................................."Hey look at me"

CrewChief

10-05-2005, 02:43 PM

Ok, for those experienced in rowing through the gears, I have two questions:

Does it matter whether the brake zone is a threshold zone or not?
Are you double-cluthing while doing this?
Thanks.

I only know of one driver of my acquaintance who double clutches. And he only does it for snob appeal to prove he's better than me. That's why God invented helical gears and non-Porsche style syncros.

CrewChief

10-05-2005, 03:12 PM

Typically, I just shift from 5 to 2 at T1 and from 4 to 2 at T5. However, since the track was slick and wet, and I was using MPSC, I felt that I had very little braking traction, and I kept sliding at T1 and T5. It was actually pretty disconcerting. Luckily, I did not flatspot my tires because I have watched my Skip Barber DVD about 100 times, and the DVD talks about what to do when you start sliding. :lol:

This in the '44? Gearing can vary a lot between cars what with different tires etc. Still and all, every time I've recommended to a 44 they only use 3 and 4/5 it has worked. Recently got an email from a former student who didn't buy the suggestion that weekend; but apparently after some more track time he found it really did work better.

TD in DC

10-05-2005, 03:24 PM

This in the '44? Gearing can vary a lot between cars what with different tires etc. Still and all, every time I've recommended to a 44 they only use 3 and 4/5 it has worked. Recently got an email from a former student who didn't buy the suggestion that weekend; but apparently after some more track time he found it really did work better.

John,

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that I only need to shift down to 3 rather than going all the way down to 2, right? You may well be right.

I am sure that I am still overbraking for T1 (particularly after seeing Forklift's video :shock: ) and T5, and I probably will not need to use second gear anymore after I get that little problem fixed. I think that I was overbraking in part because I was so worried about traction that weekend. I don't think I was overbraking at all on Shenandoah, but I don't remember whether I ever went down to 2 there.

Interestingly, learning to forget the brakes more will even ease the sliding issue. I obviously still have much to learn.

TD

}{arlequin

10-05-2005, 03:27 PM

heh heh.... you're foolin' no one Todly... i'll be seeing you at the races... (i mean, the RE) :mrgreen:

TD in DC

10-05-2005, 03:33 PM

heh heh.... you're foolin' no one Todly... i'll be seeing you at the races... (i mean, the RE) :mrgreen:

:twisted: I don't expect that I fool anyone but myself. :mrgreen:

racer

10-05-2005, 08:23 PM

I row through the gears whenever I downshift. Partly because I was taught tht way, Partly because all the old racecars and footage I saw as a kid had folks rowing through the gears. The reasons for them are 1) straigh cut gears and 2) shitty brakes and wanting to use the gearbox to help slow the car. Nowadays, gears are better (mm sequential boxes) and Brakes are phenomenal... Why do I do it?

1)One reason is for some additional rear bias to help braking. I also think it steadies the car and promotes smoothness of heal/toe technique to do this.

2) I like to know that the car is always in the right gear. IE. what if my brakes gave out. Here I am in 5th when i need the torque/power/engine braking of 3rd to help control the car better. What if the front brakes lock and I need to use power to control the car. What if someone spins in front of me.. I want to be able to get off the brkes and on the power to avoid a spinning car..

3) Helps my timing and spacial relations... I know I want to row from 5-2 (or 3) for SP T1 and all that shifting/heel toeing helps me mentally prepare for my turn in point

4) Its just cool (sounds nice.. mmm sport muffler)

5) I've only driven 901 and 915 transmissions. The 901 on a 914 and the 915 in the SC. My thought was if I can shift those cars smoothly (up or down) than I've really learned how to drive a manual trans.

Trak Ratt

10-05-2005, 08:34 PM

I don’t row except on the street. I will occasionally slip into an intermediate gear just to ease the passage into second. Hard to “unlearn” from my MG, Mustang days but “modern brakes are sooo much better and transmissions are sooo much more $$$$ than brakes” [Garry Church cir 1998].

CrewChief

10-05-2005, 11:39 PM

John,

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that I only need to shift down to 3 rather than going all the way down to 2, right? You may well be right.

I am sure that I am still overbraking for T1 (particularly after seeing Forklift's video :shock: ) and T5, and I probably will not need to use second gear anymore after I get that little problem fixed. I think that I was overbraking in part because I was so worried about traction that weekend. I don't think I was overbraking at all on Shenandoah, but I don't remember whether I ever went down to 2 there.

Interestingly, learning to forget the brakes more will even ease the sliding issue. I obviously still have much to learn.

TD

When students want to go faster one of the first things is to brake too late. Another is to select too low a gear. Forget how much you may or may not be overbraking into 1 and 5. Just put it in third. Work on the fundamentals and it will all come together.

If you want too badly to go fast; you'll go fast badly.

Cliff Claven

10-06-2005, 01:10 AM

The thing Kurt mentioned about tickling the brakes 3/4 down the straight just to make sure they're still there before waiting to threshold, I seem to do that down the long straights--started right after the time I had my pedal go to the floor at the end of the straight with no noticeable effect on rate of travel (fortunately, pumping furiously brought back enough braking to make the turn). As for rowing, I row all the way from 4 to 3 in T1 at Summit and then go at turn in.

APKhaos

10-06-2005, 09:37 AM

I'm a firm believer in the brake check thing. I do it automatically now. Helps if you can left foot brake - stay in the gas, and brush the brake to be sure you have a high pedal and some stopping power. Also do it in the Chute.

}{arlequin

10-06-2005, 10:08 AM

it only takes one time, but once your brakes go away, you'll become a "brake checker" if for no other reason than self preservation

it happened to me several years ago at our local track, NHIS. Most of the time it's run using the "south oval" configuration meaning we get to run on the bank of the 1 mile NASCRAP track, and the chicanes leading onto the start/finish straight. It happened when I was too lazy to switch to track pads and just ran on streets. They fell apart after 20 laps.

I don't know what I did that day that was intrinsically good, but luckily they died going into the bank, a 100mph corner, not the following corner, turn 3, which has a heavy brake zone coming down from 100+ down to a 2nd gear. The really big problem is a dividing wall which separates turns 3 and 10. Losing brakes into 3 generally means the car gets to be scraped off the wall w/ a forklift. I'll never forget the clenching force I felt from down below when I realized that I'm going to have to scrub speed on the bank, and a moment later, that I was lucky it didn't happen just.one.corner.later.

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/4452/nhis4ah.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Cliff Claven

10-06-2005, 10:49 AM

That sounds scary, Dave. I guess this is also a braking thread, now.

One nice thing I've noticed about when the brakes are going is they seem to give you a tiny bit of warning one or two turns earlier, they start fading or they feel soft. I've learned that if I feel anything like that--even if I'm not sure cause the difference might be very subtle, might be only a hint or a whisper of a change--it's best to back out of the gas pedal and do some decent brake checking well before the next turn, and obviously get into the pits if there is a problem.

And when it comes to brakes it seems that the more you bleed, the more consistent they stay. With my car, I bleed at least once a day, and after any session where the brakes have been used extra hard. When I first started driving on the track, a buddy of mine was telling me he bleeds his brakes after every single session on the track as a matter of routine. I used to think that was overkill, but now my views have changed entirely. Let it Bleed, baby.

William Miller

10-06-2005, 02:32 PM

83SC w/915
At SP T1, I was shifting down to 2nd which forced me to shift to 3rd somewhere near the end of T2 or hit the rev limiter. My instructor eventually told me to forget 2nd all together. (As John B. Suggested above). After a few tries I began entering T1 at a high enough speed (Higher than in 2nd gear) to allow me to keep the rpm's in the torque band in 3rd. If felt really sluggish at first, but after a few more laps I was able to consentrate on smooth transitions and keeping my speed up instead of shifting.
Worked for me!

I didn't try it on 5, (I still go 4-2 with a slight heel blip) but did realize near the end of the weekend that I could probably enter much faster. I'll try 3rd next session. BTW I was taught to take the left hander really tight (Early apex I guess) instead of hanging wide right. Why? He showed me the 2 lines in 6 but maybe one of those starts with 5 differently?

My only shifting problem has been from 4-3.
When pushing foreward I often hit the thing (Is it called a gate?) that seperates 3&5. On more than one occasion I have ended up "stuck and lost" or in 5th. Is something possibly out of adjuatment? Or possibly the spring has gotten weak over time?

}{arlequin

10-06-2005, 03:25 PM

Bill, keeping it a gear higher than you *think you should be* will make you focus more on taking the corner faster and smoother, as you have already noticed. Good observation.

I wouldn't call the left hander (T5) an early apex, but it does end up being taken tightly. The reason for it is that when you pick up speed, the chute will spit you out to the left side of the track and you will reach a point when there will be no time to get back to the right side of the track (nor will you want to) for a "classic" entry into the corner. At that point you will be happy that you've managed to slow down enough and will realize that trying to get to the right side will only get you into trouble. Even if not (yet) necessary, it's good to place the car to the inside so you'll have a good habit and be ready when you improve.

As for the 4-3 downshift, there's not much else to say other than attribute all of it to the wonderful 915 ;)
It's the reason that you should be rather slower and more deliberate w/ the shifts than you would in a modern car. You can also become more familiar w/ the shift gate to push the shifter in a slightly different direction. My first two RE's w/ my car, I kept crunching the same shift (thinking I bought a lemon) but have since "learned" the 915 and that doesn't happen anymore.

Eli

10-06-2005, 03:29 PM

What year did 915 replace the 901?

Charlie Stylianos

10-06-2005, 03:32 PM

I didn't try it on 5....... I'll try 3rd next session

I was using 3rd into 5 all the way through to track out of 9 until Tony showed me the light! Stick with 2nd until the mini straight between 7-8. You'll find that 3rd does not give you the QUICK squirt between 5-6 and not enough torque to t-steer the car around the carousel. Although 2nd is more fun and definitely feels better, comparing section times through the 5-9 complex (via video and stop watch), 2nd gear didn't show much improvement.....I don't think that the gears fault.

William Miller

10-06-2005, 03:41 PM

Dave, I think I'm partly playing it safe on 4-3 shift so I don't hit 1st!
I think that initially I was told to take 5 tight was because the brake zone was flatter and less squirrly under threshold. On exit I go way high on the left before turning in for 6. I was later shown a different line starting more to the right going into 6.

Eli, your seats are looking good on my workbench. I think I can get to the swop next week or so.

}{arlequin

10-06-2005, 03:46 PM

i've seen many different lines going into 6 and it's hard to tell which one's the "right" one (personally i think there's more than one) it's probably more a function of skill, grip, power, as well as planning.

i think the seine systems gate shift kit would help you out then since it puts spring loaded tension on the shifter and keeps it in the 4-3 plane. that way when you pull back, you'll get 4th and only 4th, and 3rd only if you go the other way-- yes i know, more $$$ ;)

William Miller

10-06-2005, 03:49 PM

I think I was doing what Charlie said, the 2-3 shift at the little straight although It felt more like just a weight shift than a straight to me.
Instructor said 911's take 6 different than other cars because they can force their ass arround.

William Miller

10-06-2005, 03:51 PM

Dave, I haven't looked lately, but isn't there a spring already there? I do have to force it over to get into 5th and Reverse plane. (My car has the factory Short Shit if that matters)

BTW, my birthday is comming up in a few weeks! :)
You reminded me to start that list!

}{arlequin

10-06-2005, 03:59 PM

isn't there a spring already there? I do have to force it over to get into 5th and Reverse plane
yes, but you have none towards the 1-2 plane which makes you fear the 4-1 downshift. the seine system puts a spring on that side as well and it basically guides you directly to 3rd. people that have them are pleased w/ the setup.

http://www.seinesystems.com/GateShift-1.htm

Cliff Claven

10-06-2005, 04:28 PM

I was using 3rd into 5 all the way through to track out of 9 until Tony showed me the light! Stick with 2nd until the mini straight between 7-8. You'll find that 3rd does not give you the QUICK squirt between 5-6 and not enough torque to t-steer the car around the carousel. Although 2nd is more fun and definitely feels better, comparing section times through the 5-9 complex (via video and stop watch), 2nd gear didn't show much improvement.....I don't think that the gears fault.
I'm definitely with Charlie on this one, 2nd gear in T5, let's you kind of jump into T6 and throttle steer through T6-7. I end up redlining in T7, and if you need to rotate the back of the car in T7, it's a perfect opportunity to shift into 3rd ;). And once in 3rd, pedal to the floor through T8-9, and shift into 4th coming out of 9.

If you do go into 3rd in T5, you'll lose some of your throttle steer ability in T6-7 cause you'll have lower rpms, so then just put the pedal to the floor and leave it there planted all the way from T5 to the exit/upshift coming out of T9 if you have the cojones (if you can get your instructor to yell, "DON'T YOU LIFT ON ME" as you're going into T9, then you're doing it right :D). Either way it's fun, but it seems to give more zip between T5-7 if you're in 2nd.

racer

10-06-2005, 04:40 PM

If you do go into 3rd in T5, you'll lose some of your throttle steer ability in T6-7 cause you'll have lower rpms,

Sounds like you need to go faster in 3rd gear, then you can throttle steer ;)

so then just put the pedal to the floor and leave it there planted all the way from T5 to the exit/upshift coming out of T9 if you have the cojones (if you can get your instructor to yell, "DON'T YOU LIFT ON ME" as you're going into T9, then you're doing it right :D)....

There you go!.. Although my car needs a slight lift between 8-9 to really get down to the apex of 9, otherwise the tires just howl as we track out to the curbing.

The more I thought about this after I wrote the above...

I often would downshift into 2nd for T-5. The problem is, by T7-8 transition (when you stop turning right and need to turn left) , I need to grab 3rd and then I run out of 3rd by the end of track out of 9 and jump to 4th... I think to keep the engine "cooler" (lower rpm=lower oil temp) I began to downshift only to 3 into T5.

William Miller

10-06-2005, 04:52 PM

Although my car needs a slight lift between 8-9 to really get down to the apex of 9, otherwise the tires just howl as we track out to the curbing.

The more I thought about this after I wrote the above...

I often would downshift into 2nd for T-5. The problem is, by T7-8 transition (when you stop turning right and need to turn left) , I need to grab 3rd and then I run out of 3rd by the end of track out of 9 and jump to 4th...

Exactly. except my instructor kept telling me "lift" or "slow" between 8-9 for the same reason. I think so I could get the car rotated a little before putting on all the coal.

When I ran solo, It was much easier and quieter (tires) and less wrestling the wheel. I immediately learned what a huge effect 200 lbs has.

I need a lesson on doing quotes!

TD in DC

10-06-2005, 04:57 PM

Once the tires heat up on the 44, I can get on the gas in 2nd from 5, shift to third between 6-7, which helps the car come over to the apex at driver's right, and then I am on the gas full all the way until 10. Apart from the shift, I am on the gas fairly hard from 6 through 10.

Jazzbass

10-06-2005, 05:00 PM

TD in DC

10-06-2005, 05:01 PM

You don't hit 4th on the straight between 9 and 10?

Yes I do. IIRC, I am at redline in 3rd at the track-out point of 9.

Don Wohlfarth

10-06-2005, 07:51 PM

Going down the chute into 5....you have got to be absolutely flying if you cannot get at least to the middle of the track before the turn in to 5. If you insist ( :vomit: ) on staying drivers left you will find that the track is very bumpy and on turn in you will hit a nasty bump at the concrete.
I think the closer you can get to stradling the white line you will find that the track is smoother and that will allow a better track surface for braking and you can miss the crater at turn in which badly upsets the balance of the car just before the apex.
Another reason to try to at least try to get to the middle of the track for turn in is turn 4 is blind, you can't see around the corner. It can be a pampers moment when you come around 4 and see 2-3 cars in front of you going very slowly as someone is pointed the wrong way in the middle of 5.

Trak Ratt

10-06-2005, 08:52 PM

’72 saw the switch to the 915 but with a lower (higher numeric) final drive. John B was speaking specifically to 944s not 911s. Don is correct and brings up a good point. SP changes year to year. 5 or 6 years ago the track was a lot different than now. Rougher, some bad drop offs, smaller sallower sand traps. It will likely be a little different next year too. T-5 and T-1 will always be the “slow” corners. Each with its special challenges. You will always enter T-5 a little loose after charging down the chute. Slowing down for T-1 from top speed… well check your brakes! What they both have in common is the need to use them to set up for the $$ corners. I usually shift into 3rd right at the point where the tracks cuts in at T-2. Using the SCs sweet spot in 3rd. to accelerate to T-4. 2nd in five, accelerating all the way around through T-6, shifting into 3rd for the big sweep through nine then up the hill into 4th for the big rush to T-10. Only middling fast for now, but lots of fun. I tried T-10 in 4th in the SC once… it was enough! Having driven ’44s, ’31s, and 911s at SP I can tell you that they all handle great but do so in different gears. I imagine TonyK, DonW, JohnB could comment on the differences too.